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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 16, 2023 11:06:22 GMT -5
Over on Dad Starting Over, the red pill types are overtly hostile to poly. I pointed out that divorce produces all the same results they say about Poly and it's not as though you cannot divorce after opening up. IF poly works, why divorce? It baffles me, not just the closed-mindedness, but the inability to even grasp the cold logic. Divorce may appear at the same rate in non-monogamous relationships as monogamous ones, but the problem I have in the context of a sexually-averse marriage is that it does not solve the problem of the marriage. I may live in a home with a leaky roof. I can go on a vacation and for a time I will stay in a hotel and not have to contend with my leaky roof. But then I will come home again, and my roof will still be leaky. Likewise, I may find romance, passion, sexual expression outside of my marriage, but when I return home I'm going to live day to day in a household that's devoid of those things, and that likely has intense latent resentment in it sufficient for my partner to override her own libido. That's not a neutral feeling - it's corrosive to the soul. And it's not *just* sex that's lacking. It's whole set of connections and feeling of affinity upstream that creates a condition for sex to happen.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 16, 2023 18:50:09 GMT -5
Over on Dad Starting Over, the red pill types are overtly hostile to poly. I pointed out that divorce produces all the same results they say about Poly and it's not as though you cannot divorce after opening up. IF poly works, why divorce? It baffles me, not just the closed-mindedness, but the inability to even grasp the cold logic. Divorce may appear at the same rate in non-monogamous relationships as monogamous ones, but the problem I have in the context of a sexually-averse marriage is that it does not solve the problem of the marriage. I may live in a home with a leaky roof. I can go on a vacation and for a time I will stay in a hotel and not have to contend with my leaky roof. But then I will come home again, and my roof will still be leaky. Likewise, people may begin by thinking that it's "just" a lack of sex in their relationship. Likewise, I may find romance, passion, sexual expression outside of my marriage, but when I return home I'm going to live day to day in a household that's devoid of those things, and that likely has intense latent resentment in it sufficient for my partner to override her own libido. That's not a neutral feeling - it's corrosive to the soul. And it's not *just* sex that's lacking. It's whole set of connections and feeling of affinity upstream that creates a condition for sex to happen. Maybe. But if that is the case, then you just end up divorcing in the end anyway. There's something to be said for having a life partner you can count on, a roommate, to share expenses with and look after in case of medical issues, or share insurance with, and raise kids with. The cold hard logic is in recognizing that teh corrosive resentment makes no sense. Stay or go, you're not getting sex from each other. Do teh trappings of marriage retain any value? You have said it's not marriage. It is something no refuser would have agreed to, but...so what? Society still calls it a marriage, the trappings persist and to leave one marriage just to join another that could also go bad in some other way... Why? What for? The main reason I hear form those refusing an open marriage is that they viscerally want their spouse to be their lover. For such people, sure. If this is deep unshakable emotional must? Yeah, divorce is all there is. There are also devoutly Christian couples who wish to keep their holy matrimonial bond intact no matter what compromises must be made, whether it is eternal celibacy, or having a concubine just as Jacob, David, Solomon, and Isaac did. Such Christian households have no polyandrous foremothers to call upon, but perhaps forgiving an unfaithful wife over and over and over, up to seventy seven times (Matthew 18:22) is preferable to severing the marriage in their eyes. It's not a common or popular approach currently, but maybe in time.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 17, 2023 9:47:58 GMT -5
Divorce may appear at the same rate in non-monogamous relationships as monogamous ones, but the problem I have in the context of a sexually-averse marriage is that it does not solve the problem of the marriage. I may live in a home with a leaky roof. I can go on a vacation and for a time I will stay in a hotel and not have to contend with my leaky roof. But then I will come home again, and my roof will still be leaky. Likewise, I may find romance, passion, sexual expression outside of my marriage, but when I return home I'm going to live day to day in a household that's devoid of those things, and that likely has intense latent resentment in it sufficient for my partner to override her own libido. That's not a neutral feeling - it's corrosive to the soul. And it's not *just* sex that's lacking. It's whole set of connections and feeling of affinity upstream that creates a condition for sex to happen. Maybe. But if that is the case, then you just end up divorcing in the end anyway. There's something to be said for having a life partner you can count on, a roommate, to share expenses with and look after in case of medical issues, or share insurance with, and raise kids with. The cold hard logic is in recognizing that teh corrosive resentment makes no sense. Stay or go, you're not getting sex from each other. Do teh trappings of marriage retain any value? You have said it's not marriage. It is something no refuser would have agreed to, but...so what? Society still calls it a marriage, the trappings persist and to leave one marriage just to join another that could also go bad in some other way... Why? What for? The main reason I hear form those refusing an open marriage is that they viscerally want their spouse to be their lover. For such people, sure. If this is deep unshakable emotional must? Yeah, divorce is all there is. There are also devoutly Christian couples who wish to keep their holy matrimonial bond intact no matter what compromises must be made, whether it is eternal celibacy, or having a concubine just as Jacob, David, Solomon, and Isaac did. Such Christian households have no polyandrous foremothers to call upon, but perhaps forgiving an unfaithful wife over and over and over, up to seventy seven times (Matthew 18:22) is preferable to severing the marriage in their eyes. It's not a common or popular approach currently, but maybe in time. Yes, in that circumstance you are likely to get a divorce anyway. That was my logic in weighing pros and cons before opening my relationship. To some extent, if I'm honest about it, there were issues lingering from the affair too - she'd gone on a sexual adventure and left me behind, when all I'd wanted if our present sexual connection had been lost was to embark on such an adventure TOGETHER. Or, if she didn't want any, to have an option to have something myself. I weighed that against the downside of CERTAIN divorce - we had already agreed to split and reversed that decision when I agreed to HER pitch. But ... and I'm a practical person, for all intents and purposes an atheist ... I felt the cost of the open relationship exceeded the benefit. WHY? It had little to do with how society views it. It was about the reasons why sex wasn't happening, and (likely no coincidence) the reasons why the open relationship was unfolding in a manner as to take the hardest possible way to do it. The reason the open relationship was hard was likely the same reason the sex wasn't happening - because she didn't want to be married to me, and I'd been wearing the face of her jailor for over a decade by then. Forget the marriage for a moment and look at the relationship itself, the place you come home to and live. There was a point once I realized all this - that there is no way to regain an attraction once contempt and disgust set in - that I didn't want to spend another second sleeping beside her. I could barely look at this person who resented me so much, and for so long. I sometimes sat on my front porch step for a long time before going in to face her. And then I thought, what if this now is how she felt for the past 5 years? Maybe she'd think she was the hero in lasting that long, and having her affair, and in doing everything she did - and somehow I was the villain in making it not good enough. It's just awful. And yet, outside of that relationship, I had wonderful experiences and a positive, loving, intimate relationship with my paramour, where I felt cherished and like I belonged. Once or twice a month, and every day talking with her. I learned I can have relationships and was attractive and good at things I thought I wasn't. I had an adventurous sex life with a stunningly attractive woman. I learned that from other people. But at home, I felt like shit. So what I learned from all this was you can open the relationship and have sex in your life, if you are lucky and work on yourself, but that it doesn't solve the problem of the marriage. Most of the time it was shining a spotlight on how awful it was. Not much to do with society's view, which was another layer on top of that.
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 17, 2023 12:07:22 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path?
I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing.
I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for.
I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 17, 2023 17:39:22 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path? I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing. I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for. I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship. Take happiness when and where you find it. None of us are promised tomorrow. If the 2 of you even partially fill a void in each others lifes you ar both better off for it.
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 17, 2023 17:52:39 GMT -5
toughtiger I don't think divorce is the only path. It may be a good one for many. Apocrypha's example makes a lot of sense, but a lot of these sexless marriages don't make it to the stage of resentment or disgust. Opening the relationship may well expose those negative emotions that had not yet been shared. So much easier to hide any contempt if you think you'll be together for years yet to come. So far, Jerri is making a go of things, last I heard. More commonly, unilateral opening of marriage has caused a reset, in Lanie's case, a lasting one.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:24:39 GMT -5
Apocrypha's example makes a lot of sense, but a lot of these sexless marriages don't make it to the stage of resentment or disgust. mirrororchid , respectfully, then what generally do you think motivates an otherwise normal person who had a normal sex life at one point, to completely override even their own libido and choose celibacy with their own partner, even when their marriage, family, house, lifestyle are on the line? And then, when the dust clears, resume sex and even fulsome romantic relationships and marriages with subsequent partners? I've been single and celibate at times, and I can say that there are some advantages to that over existing in a relationship that's toxified to the point that someone would rather burn her house and life down than express intimacy with me. I mean, that really SAYS SOMETHING about how someone feels about the marriage or the relationship or the person. The WHY may be unknowable, and may often be beside the point in terms of what happens next, but it doesn't mean that it's not important or intuited. If, as a single man, someone isn't into me that way, that's not an Apocalyptic scenario as it is if my own wife doesn't see me as a viable sexual partner. I may not know the reason I've ceased to be that, but it doesn't mean I don't live with the knowledge that there IS a reason and that reason is more than, "meh". And we're both just marinating in whatever that unspoken thing is. It's soul crushing, it's like living in a toxic dump.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 18, 2023 12:31:36 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path? I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing. I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for. I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship. No. It's not the only path. You are two years in and not yet 13. Most people tend to dig at that mountain with a teaspoon, when they really need a steamshovel. The path isn't divorce (necessarily) - it's brutal, unblinking, radical honesty on BOTH sides. Back up from the presence of sex and start instead on discussions. What is a marriage? Does it include sex? A unique sexual attraction? Find out the real answers here. You had a wedding only two years ago - would either of you recognize this now, described on the altar (a pledge of celibacy on both your parts), to be a marriage? WHY isn't it happening? What is his issue. The result is that he won't - the reason is because he doesn't want to or doesn't like to. What would it take to get him to talk about this? My hunch (based on the sex dropping off with engagement) is that something about that has made him feel like he doesn't want to be married to you. He had the wedding but hasn't joined the marriage - is surviving it rather than leaning in. That doesn't mean he's not working hard at it (imagine how hard it is to be married when you don't want to be) but rather that he doesn't find solace or energy in it. He finds it depleting, whereas you want to find it restorative and a source of strength. So what does it take to have a conversation about that? If he doesn't see it as a problem and refuses to take it seriously, then what do you think would MAKE him take it seriously?
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Post by toughtiger on Oct 18, 2023 15:25:22 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path? I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing. I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for. I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship. No. It's not the only path. You are two years in and not yet 13. Most people tend to dig at that mountain with a teaspoon, when they really need a steamshovel. The path isn't divorce (necessarily) - it's brutal, unblinking, radical honesty on BOTH sides. Back up from the presence of sex and start instead on discussions. What is a marriage? Does it include sex? A unique sexual attraction? Find out the real answers here. You had a wedding only two years ago - would either of you recognize this now, described on the altar (a pledge of celibacy on both your parts), to be a marriage? WHY isn't it happening? What is his issue. The result is that he won't - the reason is because he doesn't want to or doesn't like to. What would it take to get him to talk about this? My hunch (based on the sex dropping off with engagement) is that something about that has made him feel like he doesn't want to be married to you. He had the wedding but hasn't joined the marriage - is surviving it rather than leaning in. That doesn't mean he's not working hard at it (imagine how hard it is to be married when you don't want to be) but rather that he doesn't find solace or energy in it. He finds it depleting, whereas you want to find it restorative and a source of strength. So what does it take to have a conversation about that? If he doesn't see it as a problem and refuses to take it seriously, then what do you think would MAKE him take it seriously? It has been a full two years of sexless marriage ..... but we have 39 yrs together ........ he was losing ability in a low T issue and then diagnosed with a-fib and medications killed anything left. he thinks all is well like i should just accept his issue ... but he will not cuddle or even make me feel attractive or wanted.... he sees zero problem with this i read up on all his medical and such . but articles said talk to your doctor which he has never done ... should have done that yrs ago when things started to go downhill. I feel it may sound like i am a B .........but seriously this all would have went better if he was HONEST yrs ago made me feel i was the issue ... not so .......... makes me feel i am asking to much for even a scrap of intimacy ...... now his fake hug or touch feels like a stranger .... ( he does this in company of others to hide the complete disconnect in our marriage. ) refuses to talk about it ..... i have adult toys i had suggested as a couples thing ........his feeling is "you have that leave me the hell alone" ... let alone any other item like oral etc. He lies like a rug when we speak of this tells me "he wants me as much as always and don't i think this is hard on him too..? " NO i do not since any item he does not want to deal with he PRETENDS it does not exist until it blows up in his face and he has NO option but deal with it.... I honestly think he has tried to spy on me on another forum ...... since he said awkward thing ... awkward in it was verbatim of what was said there. i seldom go back there. i responded to What I think was his fake account that asked" can his situation be saved" I told him "NOPE too little too late if she is not connected emotionally anymore ." .. he is petty and pissed off like a spoiled child since then ...... he runs normal to cold and every discussion started he needs to use the restroom or let dog out or a frantic i forgot to call someone about work etc. I do not expect anything to be better just want to be civil and him to get that i want a sex life period. If he cannot even look into it or make other things work that accept my outsource idea.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 18, 2023 22:43:33 GMT -5
Is divorce really the only path? I appreciate the many points of view here especially when people here have first hand experience not just guessing. I at first wanted relationship to return to what was....the resentment grew as he made no effort...will not even see there is a problem the small other things grew as well things i let slide that now i want to smack him for. I met a person whom i feel could be great but he is not willing to divorce and lose half of everything ... i was and am willing to start something as open but the longer it goes i see that i doubt that will fix the other issues.... only make me mad when my friend and I are not together. Since my friend sees that too that short bouts of being happy together may not bridge the gap in our unhappy relationship. I've read multiple articles about the very small % of married men or women who have an affair partner,and follow through with their promises that they are "going to go through with the divorce." (I need some more time to find a few articles to back this. monalisa on Medium writes about this often.) The excuses for not divorcing are endless...the children, the job, the $$$ her family, his family, etc.... But the reality ends up being, they like having their cake and eat it too. The person who is ready and willing to divorce and have a relationship with another married person in a SM, ends up waiting, being used, feeling manipulated and heartbroken. Personally...I intentionally waited until the divorce was 100% final ,legal and over before dating or seeing any one else. I made sure not to give my now ex any ammunition to use against me, she could not 'honestly' tell others that I was cheating. Instead, my solid story was/is my faithfulness, and what I WAS CHEATED out of during the marriage! ( and the drawn out divorce, on her part)
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Post by lonelyhubby on Dec 14, 2023 8:48:57 GMT -5
I am at over 2,400 days of zero sex or physical intimacy. Lots of sex and affection before marriage and for about 3-4 years. Started being less and less about 15 years ago. I chalked it up to kids, stay at home wife, stress, etc.. No - it was the beginning of less and less until nothing. No kisses beyond a cheek peck, no nudity, no real cuddling (always something between us, etc..). I of course being frustrated and angry have been instructed to work through my "anger issues" (who wouldn't be angry after years of no touch, no affection). She stated we will never have sex again, she doesn't want it - it's no big deal anyway, we can have emotional and intellectual intimacy. She has made recent moves to cuddle a little more, reach out and hold hands, but no real touching that would risk intimacy. We have 5 kids (1 step son, 4 adopted siblings with only 2 left in the house), and of course Perimenopause for at least 5+ years with no end in sight.
I am reaching my point of just giving up. My Therapist agrees it is unreasonable to expect forced celibacy as that is not a marriage, she understands why I am frustrated and yes, I have addressed my anger issues and have moved past that. There is a building resentment though that is going to lead most likely to divorce because she simply won't take her walls down and confront her lifestyle choice of celibacy and disconnection. I am at a loss. seems like it is a conscious decision on her part to destroy our marriage, she got what she wanted and now wants to focus on "self care" (using her words).
Looking for an in person support group for sexless married people locally - perhaps that will help.
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patrick
Junior Member
Posts: 21
Age Range: 70+
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Post by patrick on Dec 14, 2023 9:47:33 GMT -5
I am at over 2,400 days of zero sex or physical intimacy. Lots of sex and affection before marriage and for about 3-4 years. Started being less and less about 15 years ago. I chalked it up to kids, stay at home wife, stress, etc.. No - it was the beginning of less and less until nothing. No kisses beyond a cheek peck, no nudity, no real cuddling (always something between us, etc..). I of course being frustrated and angry have been instructed to work through my "anger issues" (who wouldn't be angry after years of no touch, no affection). She stated we will never have sex again, she doesn't want it - it's no big deal anyway, we can have emotional and intellectual intimacy. She has made recent moves to cuddle a little more, reach out and hold hands, but no real touching that would risk intimacy. We have 5 kids (1 step son, 4 adopted siblings with only 2 left in the house), and of course Perimenopause for at least 5+ years with no end in sight. I am reaching my point of just giving up. My Therapist agrees it is unreasonable to expect forced celibacy as that is not a marriage, she understands why I am frustrated and yes, I have addressed my anger issues and have moved past that. There is a building resentment though that is going to lead most likely to divorce because she simply won't take her walls down and confront her lifestyle choice of celibacy and disconnection. I am at a loss. seems like it is a conscious decision on her part to destroy our marriage, she got what she wanted and now wants to focus on "self care" (using her words). Looking for an in person support group for sexless married people locally - perhaps that will help.
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patrick
Junior Member
Posts: 21
Age Range: 70+
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Post by patrick on Dec 14, 2023 10:23:40 GMT -5
Lonelyhubby, while I am only about a year into no sex or intimacy with my wife of 43+ years, I feel your pain and can relate to much of your post. Wondering how you are dealing with 6+ years of no sex…although you don’t state your age, I assume you still have the urge and desire for sex? I’m 74 and my wife is 67 but I apparently have a much stronger sex drive than she (who I suspect has become asexual) and have resorted to solo sex as my “go to” method for coping with this sad situation.
My wife and I have grown apart in many ways through the years, and the pandemic brought things to a head. She is an avid anti-vaxxer who listens to internet quacks every night to bolster her beliefs while I rely on my professional health care providers and am fully vaxxed and recently got the new booster after a visit with my primary care doctor who reminded me of my high risk status due to my age. Pretty sure my wife justifies avoiding physical contact with me for fear of “vaccine shedding” from my regular boosters. We did try counseling but found it of limited value as the counselor said we were both right…that I was being understandably prudent by being vaccinated, masking and avoiding crowds while she was within her own rights to make her own health care decisions. I took the vaccine while she took Ivermectin.🙄
Also, while I am a lifelong liberal Democrat, she recently changed her party affiliation to Republican so she could vote for our current governor and presidential candidate whom I despise.
The good news is we have grandchildren who bring much joy, and we both are enjoying our retirement in Florida. She goes to her daily yoga class and fills her time with lunches with girlfriends and being active in our HOA while I am happy with my daily solo bike rides.
It is said “misery enjoys company” which brings us all to this forum, looking for ways to grok with this unfortunate circumstance of living in a sexless marriage. I wish you well going forward!
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Post by lonelyhubby on Dec 14, 2023 11:01:39 GMT -5
I am 59, Wife is 55. She didn't start out asexual / "greysexual", but after years of nothing Perimenopause hit and now that is also a factor. She adamantly refuses to consider HRT or even Biocompatible HRT as an option. she has gained weight, pre diabetic, high cholesterol, on Prozac for Migraines and thrives in her head with her walls around her (complex coping issues from a withdrawn, cold fish abusive Mother who dismissed / abused her Father as a part of their relationship until divorce). It didn't start out this way, like rabbits before and after being married, started slowing down after 4 years and simply became once every month, every 6 months, every year and a half - then nothing. We fostered and adopted children (went from 1 to 4 in 5 months), then adopted the sister of the 2 girls we adopted 4+ years later. All have issues, and require a lot of work and attention - so I can't be totally judgmental regarding the burnout and subsequent not wanting to give anything of herself after 15 or so years of constant demand. I worked (had to as the single income earner) sometimes up to 100 hours a week, regularly 65-70 plus constant on call - so yeah, I was consumed by work and responsibility while the house went to sh*t and she started checking out, with withdrawal of physical affection being the thing that went.
And of course with no discussion or explanation, withdrawing physical intimacy affects the rest of the relationship and connection from my point of view, so suffice to say - all I became was a frustrated, angry paycheck with legs, working my ass off and get no recognition or even acknowledgement of the effort. But - her effort also seemed to go unappreciated, and that's my fault. Now here we are at Perimenopause for her and a renewed physical point in my life, and dead bedroom.
My recommendation is to not let politics infest your relationship.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 15, 2023 7:31:38 GMT -5
I am 59, Wife is 55. She didn't start out asexual / "greysexual", but after years of nothing Perimenopause hit and now that is also a factor. She adamantly refuses to consider HRT or even Biocompatible HRT as an option. she has gained weight, pre diabetic, high cholesterol, on Prozac for Migraines and thrives in her head with her walls around her (complex coping issues from a withdrawn, cold fish abusive Mother who dismissed / abused her Father as a part of their relationship until divorce). It didn't start out this way, like rabbits before and after being married, started slowing down after 4 years and simply became once every month, every 6 months, every year and a half - then nothing. We fostered and adopted children (went from 1 to 4 in 5 months), then adopted the sister of the 2 girls we adopted 4+ years later. All have issues, and require a lot of work and attention - so I can't be totally judgmental regarding the burnout and subsequent not wanting to give anything of herself after 15 or so years of constant demand. I worked (had to as the single income earner) sometimes up to 100 hours a week, regularly 65-70 plus constant on call - so yeah, I was consumed by work and responsibility while the house went to sh*t and she started checking out, with withdrawal of physical affection being the thing that went. And of course with no discussion or explanation, withdrawing physical intimacy affects the rest of the relationship and connection from my point of view, so suffice to say - all I became was a frustrated, angry paycheck with legs, working my ass off and get no recognition or even acknowledgement of the effort. But - her effort also seemed to go unappreciated, and that's my fault. Now here we are at Perimenopause for her and a renewed physical point in my life, and dead bedroom. My recommendation is to not let politics infest your relationship. May I ask the reason for the heavy fostering/adoption burden she took on? Religious fervor, perhaps? (Thank you. Abandoned kids need homes.) If so, an ILIASM member named csl will likely have some essays you may enjoy about Christian wives who take their volunteer service to unhealthy levels.
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