m76
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Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Sept 4, 2023 7:17:38 GMT -5
Sorry to everyone, this is mostly just venting that I wanted to write down.
I finally had the talk with my W, about missing the physical intimacy and connection, we even did the 5 love languages quiz to find out a bit more about each other.
No surprise that physical touch was my number one. Her number one was acts of service.
As it stands I already do all the housework and take care of things like taking her car to the garage and the maintenance around the house. So I don't know what I'm not doing for her.
She questioned me on why I pull away from her when she tries to kiss me or hold my hand. So, I don't know if anyone else feels like this but I explained that the physical contact reminds me how much more I want and she doesn't want to give, she said that sex is not a part of her life anymore and doesn't think that should be what defines physical intimacy. For context we are both 46 and have had zero sex in the last 15 years.
The conversation mostly ended at that point.
It's so hard when she sleeps naked next to me in bed and I can look but I can't touch. So last night was another night of getting out of bed, going to the living room and crying while she slept.
Everything else is good in my life, kids are doing well, I have a successful career, I think I'm relatively attractive but this one missing piece and I feel like a complete failure as a man.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 4, 2023 9:58:41 GMT -5
It may be that you are doing everything she needs. She just hasn't needed to do anything to continue to deserve it. The love is unrequited. I felt that agony of unwanted touch and it may have been a milestone along my (canceled) quest to outsource. She doesn't see why it has to be part of intimacy. Perhaps she doesn't need to know why. She just needs to know it is. I suspect she does not yet know this. When I decided to outsource, I began initiating the hand holding and kissing romance part with my wife that your wife appears to offer or maybe even want. The arousal it brought on had always been addressed imperfectly by games of "solitaire", but when I had a plan to expend my ardor with another, my lust was no longer a pressure cooker with the valve closed, producing anger/rage. It instead became excitement and a promise. Then, shockingly, she decided to be my lover instead of my finding one. I hate to possibly clarify and correct your statement. But I suspect you had *a* talk. not " The Talk". Did your talk include a deadline for and consequences of your continued celibacy? If not, you missed important pieces. Hopefully, you have taken steps that Baza recommends when you're ready for " The Talk". Reaction to it may be decidedly negative, and it'll be good if you are semi-prepared for fallout. |
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m76
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Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Sept 4, 2023 10:44:19 GMT -5
It may be that you are doing everything she needs. She just hasn't needed to do anything to continue to deserve it. The love is unrequited. I felt that agony of unwanted touch and it may have been a milestone along my (canceled) quest to outsource. She doesn't see why it has to be part of intimacy. Perhaps she doesn't need to know why. She just needs to know it is. I suspect she does not yet know this. When I decided to outsource, I began initiating the hand holding and kissing romance part with my wife that your wife appears to offer or maybe even want. The arousal it brought on had always been addressed imperfectly by games of "solitaire", but when I had a plan to expend my ardor with another, my lust was no longer a pressure cooker with the valve closed, producing anger/rage. It instead became excitement and a promise. Then, shockingly, she decided to be my lover instead of my finding one. I hate to possibly clarify and correct your statement. But I suspect you had *a* talk. not " The Talk". Did your talk include a deadline for and consequences of your continued celibacy? If not, you missed important pieces. Hopefully, you have taken steps that Baza recommends when you're ready for " The Talk". Reaction to it may be decidedly negative, and it'll be good if you are semi-prepared for fallout. You're right, it was a talk but not 'the talk'. I don't think I'm prepared for the fallout of that yet. I have another counciling session scheduled tomorrow. |
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even
Junior Member
Posts: 22
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Post by even on Sept 4, 2023 15:45:38 GMT -5
No risk, no gain.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 4, 2023 19:30:51 GMT -5
Sorry to everyone, this is mostly just venting that I wanted to write down. I finally had the talk with my W, about missing the physical intimacy and connection, we even did the 5 love languages quiz to find out a bit more about each other. No surprise that physical touch was my number one. Her number one was acts of service. As it stands I already do all the housework and take care of things like taking her car to the garage and the maintenance around the house. So I don't know what I'm not doing for her.
Ditto my ex and i had the same story. Here's something to ponder.
How many people does it take to do (give) an act of service? ( one) How much communication is involved in doing an act of service? ( none) Can you hire someone else to do acts of service? ( yes) Does acts of service ever end? (No) (some do, but not dishes, dusting, vacuuming, laundry, lawn care etc..). How cold is an act of service? (Very) Are you physically and emotionally exposing yourself? (no)
Now compare that to physical touch and quality time. It takes both partners to be engaged. It takes open ,honest communication. It involves risk, being vulnerable. It does end with a sense of satisfaction, a need that's been filled for a while, it is continues though. It involves giving to only one other person, trusting that one person, who took a vow to have and to hold, to love and to cherish, to honor and respect, to fill your physical need. By doing so you make yourself vulnerable to criticism and rejection, which makes the reward of being desired cherished, and respected priceless!
She questioned me on why I pull away from her when she tries to kiss me or hold my hand.
That's deflection, or reversal. She knows very well that holding hands, kissing, etc, is quality time, and foreplay leading to touch (sex) She offers you the dangling carrot, moving of the goal post, kicking the can down the road, it gives her 100% control, and she is upset that you dare question it. So, I don't know if anyone else feels like this but I explained that the physical contact reminds me how much more I want and she doesn't want to give, she said that sex is not a part of her life anymore and doesn't think that should be what defines physical intimacy.
SEX IS NOT part of HER life anymore. She is the gate keeper and thinks you have to comply and except it. Who has the control of the entire relationship? You, the man. Taking back control involves controlling the $$$ and your time. Responding to her demands (act of service) can be ended and you will be taking control of the relationship.
Your wife will continue to gaslight you on her rendition of physical intimacy. Think her opinion will change when you say " No. You're wrong. I'm going to get my needs met with someone else. End of discussion. ( setting a boundary and enforcing it) For context we are both 46 and have had zero sex in the last 15 years. The conversation mostly ended at that point.
She ended things and you complied. It's now time for action not words.It's so hard when she sleeps naked next to me in bed and I can look but I can't touch. So last night was another night of getting out of bed, going to the living room and crying while she slept.
Yes! it's not just hard it's mental abuse and you should not tolerate it! Your W lives on a one way street paved with double standards! ( like mine did)
Time to set a boundary . You " I need sex with you once a week, if you wish to remain married and sleeping in the same bed together" when I said that to my now ex Wife her response was " I don't think I will EVER be ready for that!" Then came the divorce.Everything else is good in my life, kids are doing well, I have a successful career, I think I'm relatively attractive but this one missing piece and I feel like a complete failure as a man.
All positive things that should be offered to a woman who will appreciate it and give back to you!! |
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Post by northstarmom on Sept 4, 2023 19:43:24 GMT -5
m76: "
It's so hard when she sleeps naked next to me in bed and I can look but I can't touch. So last night was another night of getting out of bed, going to the living room and crying while she slept."
You won't be subject to that if you move permanently to the livingroom or another part of the house. It was a big relief for me when I did that. My refuser never commented on it. Several years later, I asked for a divorce and we got divorced. I'm now with a man who views sex with me as important.
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Post by mirrororchid on Sept 5, 2023 5:53:47 GMT -5
northstarmom has a point. If you've quit the intimate platonic touch, this is a logical step to take. Proximity is painful, so you spare yourself. GreatCoastal has an assertive head-of-household approach to suggest. My concern is if she's a more liberated kind of gal, it can bring on a resistant, adversarial tone and that can bleed into divorce proceedings where you both end up paying lawyers substantially more than you'd lose with a more collaborative approach to divorce (should it be necessary). The take charge guy mindset / confidence can be useful, I admit. Dad Starting Over invokes that through advocacy for a double fisted stranglehold on your own life, shaping it in such a way as to improve your own life with little regard for what your wife thinks about it. It includes taking on household tasks you'll have to do all on your own if you choose to leave. Some wives like to criticize housework. She can tweak and perfect whatever you choose to do. They are your chores also. If she wants to do all the chores, she may, but it doesn't mean you aren't allowed. Becoming more independent and attending to your superficial value may help with her attraction, but provides universal value should you end up needing to leave. bballgirl took a more pacifist, factual approach that minimized drama. I wish I could find the post. Her husband brought up reasons why their absent sex life was her fault/problem and her reply each time was, "You're right. We're incompatible." He ran out of things to say. Some refusers want no blame. Her method may work if blaming you isn't required. Blaming teh situation and not caring why or who is more at fault worked for her and I found her tactics artful and about as kind as that wretched conversation can be. Any of it should be preceded by a consultation with a lawyer and some idea what the result a divorce could be, in case it escalates without your intent.
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Post by csl on Sept 5, 2023 7:27:55 GMT -5
Sorry to everyone, this is mostly just venting that I wanted to write down. I finally had the talk with my W, about missing the physical intimacy and connection, we even did the 5 love languages quiz to find out a bit more about each other. This jumped out at me as I read your post. It reminded me of a man I knew who was just like you, doing everything. Then he had his own Independence Day: curmudgeonlylibrarian.wordpress.com/2015/02/06/christian-go-to-marital-tools-part-2-2/Go, thou, and do likewise. |
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Post by deadzone75 on Sept 5, 2023 10:30:00 GMT -5
What good is a talk and a quiz after 15 years of no sex? Unless it's a quiz to evaluate her mental status, that's pretty useless. Because she has to be a bit mental to torment you by sleeping naked next to you every night, knowing one of you wants sex. That's some cold shit, and it would appear that's how SHE gets off. It took me less than a year of being friend-zoned to start sleeping in another room, not just to prove my position, but because I simply couldn't stand being that close to someone who didn't desire me. I might as well have been going over to my neighbor's house and sleeping next to her every night and then going my separate way in the morning. It was bullshit. And why, after 15 years, are you still going downstairs and crying at night? 15 years? If you aren't leaving, I suggest going downstairs and rubbing one out to Pornhub and put the Kleenex to better use. Just do something for yourself. And give your W an "F" for that bullshit quiz that proved that she likes it when you do all the chores. Great quiz, that.
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m76
Full Member
Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Sept 5, 2023 11:04:10 GMT -5
What good is a talk and a quiz after 15 years of no sex? Unless it's a quiz to evaluate her mental status, that's pretty useless. Because she has to be a bit mental to torment you by sleeping naked next to you every night, knowing one of you wants sex. That's some cold shit, and it would appear that's how SHE gets off. It took me less than a year of being friend-zoned to start sleeping in another room, not just to prove my position, but because I simply couldn't stand being that close to someone who didn't desire me. I might as well have been going over to my neighbor's house and sleeping next to her every night and then going my separate way in the morning. It was bullshit. And why, after 15 years, are you still going downstairs and crying at night? 15 years? If you aren't leaving, I suggest going downstairs and rubbing one out to Pornhub and put the Kleenex to better use. Just do something for yourself. And give your W an "F" for that bullshit quiz that proved that she likes it when you do all the chores. Great quiz, that. It's the one regret I have is that I didn't make a bigger deal of it when the frequency started declining. There was always something going on and I thought maybe it was me... even lost 40lbs at one point (that I've kept off). Even then I held onto the hope that her libido would return. I'm not sure her plumbing even works now. I still have to have "the" talk still and since I'm someone that avoids conflict I dread it. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 5, 2023 11:50:34 GMT -5
Her number one was acts of service. As it stands I already do all the housework and take care of things like taking her car to the garage and the maintenance around the house. So I don't know what I'm not doing for her. She questioned me on why I pull away from her when she tries to kiss me or hold my hand. So, I don't know if anyone else feels like this but I explained that the physical contact reminds me how much more I want and she doesn't want to give, she said that sex is not a part of her life anymore and doesn't think that should be what defines physical intimacy. For context we are both 46 and have had zero sex in the last 15 years. You are still at the point at which you frame this problem as a loose wire that can be fixed, rather than a change of mind about the destination and the nature of your relationship that happened some 15 years ago. Love languages are for people who are into each other. No amount of "acts of service" is going to increase your odds of a physical relationship with someone who fundamentally doesn't see that or want that with you. Flip it around. Physical is your love language - but there are people in your immediate circles with whom you would never, ever sleep with. Maybe it's because of who they are (your sister), or because of something you know about them (you dislike them, or something they did - to the extent that they simply aren't a viable sexual partner and you can't unknow it). 15 years celibacy isn't ambivalence toward sex with you. You might consider, what happened 15 years ago that ended this part of your relationship with her irrevocably. Why don't you see if you can have a discussion about what a marriage is, and whether either of you agree that you have one, or how what you have is different from an amicable separation. |
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 5, 2023 12:02:41 GMT -5
We have a saying in the south when we see someone engaging in a futile effort. "you are p*ssing into the wind". Haveing a talk after 15 yrs. of a SM is futile. It would not have mattered (in the long run) having a talk earlier. Your W was headed in this direction early on, you just happened to be in the car and ended up going along for the ride.
the members here have identified one possible action that sometimes, but somewhat infrequently, results in a return to intimacy by the refusing partner. It is the threat of an imminate seperation or divorce if the refusing partner does not change their behavior. Now there are a few exceptions here but by and large it seems that only the threat of breaking up the marriage carries enough weight to possibly bring about a change, but not always. I had a dozen "talks: with my X with no change on her part. I even talked about a FWB for me so she would not have to worry about me bothering her anymore. That brought about a reset for roughly 3 months, then back to celibacy. After 15yrs. I don't see a route back to a loving, intim,ate marriage for you. Best to start thinking along those terms now and acting accordingly.
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Post by toughtiger on Sept 5, 2023 13:15:38 GMT -5
It's the one regret I have is that I didn't make a bigger deal of it when the frequency started declining. There was always something going on and I thought maybe it was me... even lost 40lbs at one point (that I've kept off). Even then I held onto the hope that her libido would return. I'm not sure her plumbing even works now. I still have to have "the" talk still and since I'm someone that avoids conflict I dread it. Do not sweat not making a bigger deal early on I think we all did that somewhat.... In the beginning accepting excuses ... and hoping things would change ............we try to do things for them and work on ourselves. Doing every thing we can to create a spark. they seem oblivious ... Like Cool they never want sex again either. I know many would like to have their refuser to wake the hell up and engage but i want to know WHY Not the fake excuses for why but the TRUTH why they have no drive at all? why they do not seek medical help or therapy ? why Did they think they could make a decision to be celibate for BOTH partners without even a conversation? |
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Post by Apocrypha on Sept 5, 2023 15:30:34 GMT -5
Having a talk after 15 yrs. of a SM is futile. It would not have mattered (in the long run) having a talk earlier. Your W was headed in this direction early on, you just happened to be in the car and ended up going along for the ride. In my post-marriage period, I was a prolific dater. Occasionally, I encountered someone who had been celibate for 15 years due to a similar kind of situation. I have to say... even though I came from a marriage that became sex averse pretty quickly, that level of tolerance for it always gave me pause, in the same way as a habitual long distance relationship seeker. My first thought is that maybe there is something about them that's averse to sex as well. Not trying to be a dick in suggesting it - more encouraging the OP to spend some time thinking about that and if there is a hidden element here where maybe he didn't want sex either. It seems an exceptionally long time. I dunno, I'm asking. |
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m76
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Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Sept 5, 2023 15:43:58 GMT -5
Having a talk after 15 yrs. of a SM is futile. It would not have mattered (in the long run) having a talk earlier. Your W was headed in this direction early on, you just happened to be in the car and ended up going along for the ride. In my post-marriage period, I was a prolific dater. Occasionally, I encountered someone who had been celibate for 15 years due to a similar kind of situation. I have to say... even though I came from a marriage that became sex averse pretty quickly, that level of tolerance for it always gave me pause, in the same way as a habitual long distance relationship seeker. My first thought is that maybe there is something about them that's averse to sex as well. Not trying to be a dick in suggesting it - more encouraging the OP to spend some time thinking about that and if there is a hidden element here where maybe he didn't want sex either. It seems an exceptionally long time. I dunno, I'm asking. No. I have kids, they've always been the priority and I wanted them to have a stable household. I also don't know anything else. I've been with my W since high school. The idea of dating someone else is scary. I avoid conflict, and I'm a procrastinator so I just keep telling myself I'll talk about it later. I was actually at a similar point about 5 years ago but her father just died and she was having a rough time so I decided to tough it out. So combination of my issues and circumstances just keep putting it off. Where it came to a head was when we recently took a trip with just the two of us for a week. There was literally nothing preventing us from having sex, no kids, we were having fun, I suggested one night that we could have sex, she just said maybe, rolled over and went to sleep. |
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