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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 11, 2020 16:57:15 GMT -5
This is meant to be a page offering an outline of "The Talk" refused spouses may like to use to compose their own presentation of "The Talk" to their refusing spouse. This is going to start as a very threadbare effort, but with help from comments, I'll edit this first post into something more thorough. Bearing in mind perfectionism is a tool of the lazy, I offer this slapdash construct. itme gaveme the idea that this formula could be used to talk about any very, very serious topic. Just swap out the sexy stuff for whatever the problem is. (overspending, substance abuse, etc.) After reading some threads about "The Talk", (e.g. iliasm.org/thread/2944/talk-refuser?page=1) my understanding of it is different. Many I've read discuss how to tell the refuser that you're filing for divorce. The recommendation is to announce it, not to ask, or suggest. My vision comes months or years before that one. I was under the impression that "The Talk" was about the unacceptable nature of sexlessness and the requirement that it will stop, one way or another. You will see options that set boundaries on acceptable outcomes. If you are still at a fixing stage, there may indeed be two "Talk"s, but each one about a different subject. First, the sexlessness, next the divorce (which may not be necessary depending on what the result of the first is, be it a "fix" or negotiated infidelity) Not every possibility is meant to be covered. You can certainly add in your own options. I've said previously, however: it's called "The Talk", not "The Talks" It's probably wise to mean what you say, and plan ahead as to what will be done if "The Talk" is ignored. If this is not your only "Talk", you may need to preface it with something like, "This is the last time I'll bring this up, and I'm not just saying that. This is the last time." (and make damn sure it is.) Mix and match the uncomfortable opening:
| Snooky, | we gotta talk. | | Cuddlebuns, | you got a minute? | | Sweetie, | I need an hour sometime this week. Just us. | | Teddybear, | no kidding, we're not putting this off any longer. | | Lovalumps, | I really didn't want it to come to this. | | Honey, | I have something unhappy I've got to say |
| We're going on | a bunch of | weeks | minus | physical intimacy | | It's been | at least (number) | months | without | sex |
| I can't count how many | years | in the absence of | spooning |
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| with scarcely any | kissing like lovers do. |
and | I've had as much as I can take. | | I'm done with this. | | it's got to stop. | | I'm at wit's end. | | I've tried to live like we have been and I just can't. | | I'm unhappy enough that we're having this talk. |
| I'm looking to reintroduce | intimate kissing | at least | on the hour | and it's not too much to ask. | | I'm going to insist on | naked cuddling |
| weekly | at a minimum. | | I can't accept any less than | sex |
| twice a week | but it's subject to change. | | It's not unreasonable to expect | physical affection |
| twice a month
| though I'll hear out a counteroffer you'd like to suggest. |
| I know you've got a lot on your mind now, | but it needs to be soon. | | This seems like a good time to evaluate just where we are, | but I need to see progress. | | I've been telling you this for quite some time now, | but I'm not waiting around if I don't see some kind of effort. | | It's okay if this isn't overnight, |
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| If things aren't going in a positive direction | in/by <number> (days, weeks, months, years) | I'm switching to the guest room. | | If we haven't gotten to that minimum level |
| I'm going online to meet someone. |
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| I'm moving out. |
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| I'm going to have to file for divorce. |
| I hate this | you're all I need | but I do need the physical connection as well as emotional and everyday life support. | | Believe me | I love everything else about our marriage | but this isn't a part of our marriage I'm okay living without anymore. | | I've tried to tell myself this isn't necessary | you're a good husband/wife | and while I need someone to physically connect with, I want it to be you. |
| I know this could mean the end | but I can't wish this away | | Maybe you'll hate me | but it's a deal breaker | | I'm not happy about this at all | but this isn't optional. | | Maybe this is unfathomable to you | but it's an unshakable part of who and what I am. |
| So... got anything for me? | | Are we okay? | | I hope that came out okay. | | I'm hoping you're up for it. |
linked to a post on deadbedrooms subreddit that is a very thorough list of the attempted defenses LL (low libido) spouses may attempt to counter The Talk with: iliasm.org/thread/3353/preparing-talk?page=1While the OP phrases his rebuttal to the defenses, I think each can be rephrased in a more cooperative, hopeful, optimistic manner to suit the first Talk wherein you're demanding improvement in sex frequency/quality. The author's responses all strike me as being suitable for finishing with "...and that's why I want you to sign these papers." bballgirl posted about her Talk and responded to her X's defenses with, "You're right. We're incompatible." I admired this approach. It's short, fails to feed potential arguing, and it was effective. (for her, and I'd wager many others) I really hate to meddle with such a decisive, satisfying convention as saying there's just one Talk. Some threads around here recommend the divorce Talk isn't actually a talk. Just a notification that you're done. Does that perhaps mean that the only Talk is the demand for improvement? Some threads seem to support this possibility. |
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Post by Handy on Nov 12, 2020 13:09:37 GMT -5
Padgemi, Do not short change yourself on having a 0% track record. The above post is excellent advice and to me represents the norms presented on this forum.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 13, 2020 7:00:14 GMT -5
Suggestion:...
Don’t bring up sex. Because that is where it all falls apart. Right??
The fear of everything falling apart is what makes it, "The Talk", though. Right? At least the first one. Do we need a different name? Sex is what "The Talk" is about if ULIASM. It isn't "I'm About to Leave My Sexless Marriage" (IATLMSM). I haven't checked, but there may be hundreds or thousands of forums dedicated to divorce/escape planning for myriad reasons. When I first heard "The Talk", sex is what I thought was getting discussed. The "I'm horny as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!" moment. Many threads took "The Talk" to mean bringing up divorce, often recommending that you phrase it as a done deal, not a discussion. That seems wise for both kinds of "Talk"s. If you're still at discussion stage, it's not "The Talk". It's *a* talk. It seems to be a trend that a belief in “all’s well, bar the sex” is inversely proportional to the amount of time one spends on here. Also, I suspect your spouse’s version would either be “all’s well, except you keep selfishly bugging me about sex” OR “There is plenty fucked up about this marriage, sex is the last thing I want to talk about.”That's a sign of sanity. The longer it takes, the more you've tried to "fix" your marriage, and the more the "Hopium" stops working. "The Talk" is a tool by which you measure the futility of hope. It's a nail in the coffin you're offering to pound in, for both your and your refuser's sake. (It's no picnic living with an angry, sullen refused spouse, blame aside.) Addressing any marital problems are worthy of *a* talk. Many of them. You'll never stop with those kinds. "The Talk" is about the one thing that's bugging you and is so severe and so stuck, that you end up at ILIASM with tufts of hair in each fist. "The Talk" is the one that's avoided and perhaps difficult to compose artfully. Maybe a tool by which you can write one quickly may be of use. Conversations about dirty dishes in the sink aren't commonly something you spend sleepless nights rehearsing in your head. Then again, if you're at wit's end about your spouse overspending, substance abuse, blatant disrespect, not helping with much of anything, neglecting the children, or other massive issues, a lot of the talk above might be useful. Just swap out whatever big honking problem you have with "sex". A lot of it will hold up. The consequences, the reassurance, the timeframe. All of it will make for a productive, final conversation, if you hold firm (and have your legal action ready if it truly is a deal breaker.) You don't want to use this formula if you aren't ready to write up papers if they answer is "no". That "shreds the cred". It is said the only way to have a chance at reviving sex is to initiate divorce and follow through until the spouse brings the “come to Jesus” response.
Both that AND this "Talk" have been known to produce temporary "resets" and "starfish sex". Both of which, it might be pointed out, do not constitute earnest solutions that rectify the problem and the timeframe and consequences component of the Talk are still in effect. If a refuser says the problem is solved, you need not agree. As Apocrypha would point out, you cannot instill desire. Inadvertent inability to meet your demands can still be a deal breaker. It does provide some level of appreciation for whatever effort by a refuser is made. (mirrororchid ‘s method is unique. I defer to him on this strategy)
Ah, not quite unique. Jerri had the same plan. I would have done close to what she did, but my wife reset and we're coming up on a year of non-sexlessness. I'm as surprised as anyone else. The whole reset evolution started with "The Talk" above, where my consequences were taking a FWB instead of divorce. (She could file for one if she wanted to kill all our vows instead of just one.) My starting to date is what produced the "come to Jesus" moment, possibly nudged firmly by my wife starting therapy. It seems to me that, in so doing, all of a sudden the conversation isn’t about sex anymore. It’s about a consequence: turning your spouse’s life upside down and what that means to them. Be honest: has a genuine empathy or concern for YOUR expressed rejected, dejected and lonely emotional state ever been a motivating factor for your honey bun to give you what you need??
Yes, it has. Never enough to act, though. That is, before I started to date. So don’t make it about what you need. You have married someone who has already shown you they don’t give a shit about that. Read that again. Do you disagree?
Yup. She often expressed frustration with herself for my needing to badger her, then give her space, then get ignored every night three months straight (apologies and acknowledgement to everyone who has had to wait much much longer). Motives for refusing can vary and indifference will be in play to differing degrees. Perhaps the indifference is a sign of how much "hopium" you should allow yourself to sniff? Jerri's husband was willing to try, but just didn't have it in him. He cared, but couldn't make himself do what was needed. We've seen elsewhere a reliable sign of marital dissolution is contempt. Indifference to your partner's needs qualifies. Perhaps absent that contempt, "The Talk" has a chance of successful turnaround rather than being the white flag on the relationship. (racing reference, not battle. The white flag signals "one lap to go", checkered flag is the finish-divorce papers signed) I have this theory for the die hard stayers (I was one before I bailed) who have come to believe that more than just the sex is “not great” in the marriage. The wisest veterans here seem to be saying the sex life is only ever a symptom of an underlying cause. Perhaps it has to do with communication, or one of Gottman’s “four horsemen” or whatever. Maybe make the talk about the underlying cause?
Fair enough. As I suggested, swap out whatever deal breaking problem you like for "sex" above. But the format should produce a useful starting point for "The Platonic Talk" (copyright 2020, MirrorOrchid). It better be big enough to file papers over if you're going to place a flag in the ground. This observation also requires the refused party to identify the issue. That sounds like "why chasing". Historically, that never ends. There's always something that justifies a refuser. "The Sex Talk" (formerly known as "The Talk") lays it out on the line: we can address all the other complaints/problems simultaneously, but sex is coming back into my life, with or without you. Which I thought was the original intent. Your sex life may never improve. But there may be some emotional improvement beneath the surface for the both of you, and who knows: maybe that will lead to something better down the line. Again, see above - zero track record. But from an experienced failure’s point of view, Obie-wan, that looks like our only hope...
I dare agree. The purpose of "The Talk", sexual or platonic, is to decisively remove an obstacle to better relations, or kill the relationship (which will also improve the relationship - going from negative to permanent zero) |
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Post by jerri on Nov 13, 2020 19:03:27 GMT -5
During the talk we are supposed to use "feeling" statements. Harder to attack l feel" statements rather than you' statements which is suggested by self help gurus.
BBL
ETA:
Had a productive talk and he changed date night to Saturday. Intimacy and dinner will be on the menu. I don't know if he will follow through, I have my doubts.
He said it won't include sex because he said he hasn't gone to the doctor yet. He said erections are semi hard in the morning.
I'm surprised he didn't say no!
I selected physical intimacy off your list and kissing with statements like I feel lonely and can I get an update about possibly getting intimacy again? I suggested we add to date night. Commitment for once a week although he used to say yes before and not follow through.
I also told him we could do percussion massages. Nude cuddling would be nice. Massages used to lead to sex. FWB is going to try to get his wife a date night.
Anyone else do date nights? Does it lead to anything?
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Post by jerri on Nov 13, 2020 23:10:31 GMT -5
During the talk we are supposed to use "feeling" statements. Harder to attack l feel" statements rather than list of you' statements which is suggested by self help gurus. BBL Harder, yes. But my ex was up to the challenge and sure figured out a way to attack my claim to have “never FELT so gaslighted in all my life” in front of a marriage counselor, and apparently I was the only one in the room interested in validating my feelings. Luckily, I believed me. 😉 What did counselor say? Interesting that she just gets to pull that our of her butt! |
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Post by jerri on Nov 14, 2020 2:10:46 GMT -5
Any type of blame placed or any focus on him and it's over. Conversation is at an impasse! The focus has to remain on me and my feelings for the most part and he won't like that we are conversing, but he will be kind and considerate.
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Post by jerri on Nov 14, 2020 21:05:07 GMT -5
What did counselor say? Interesting that she just gets to pull that our of her butt! We had a little sitchy-ashun where she made me feel ultra-subhuman, her citing my bipolar ways being the reason. I actually texted her those words. “I’ve never felt so gaslighted.” She did not acknowledge the text for several days, until we’re in the MCs office, where she proclaimed how I accused her of being a gaslighter. I immediately corrected her and said “no I said I’ve never FELT so gaslighted.” As I recall, she gave no response and our marriage counselor promptly changed the subject. 😶 The blame game... A road to a wet kiss every time! I don't know what sitchy-ashun means but... |
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Post by jerri on Nov 14, 2020 22:38:53 GMT -5
The blame game... A road to a wet kiss every time! I don't know what sitchy-ashun means but... Sorry. Alabama for “situation.” 😁 Ok, now I can sound it out! Lol😂 You got me! I sure could use a song coffee and some MUD PIE! |
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Post by jerri on Nov 15, 2020 13:50:14 GMT -5
I went to go get takeout as and watched him lay on the couch. I was mesmerized while waiting, on a virtual train ride in Canada and Norway (Pluto TV) I dressed up in a red sweater dress. Was pinning for a shared massage and he came out of his room wearing Santa Claus print pajamas! hahaha
I said where do you want to go for date night takeout? He said, I don't want to go out. I thought, I can ruin it for myself by sulking or I can go out and get a treat of a dinner, so I did. Later, I think he was pretending to be half asleep as we were on the train ride.
I didn't have much expectation, so not a shocker. I did say earlier, while I was "riding the train in Canada", you changed date to tonight. <Crickets churping> This bothered me less than I thought it would.
ETA: I will be asking again, next date night or maybe I get takeout two times this week with a reschedule!😎
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Post by jim44444 on Nov 15, 2020 17:08:09 GMT -5
Anyone else do date nights? Does it lead to anything? Yep, it leads to frustration and a lighter wallet. Now I do not care about the lighter wallet but I Feel that I got screwed on the deal and not in the way I had hoped to be screwed. So for me I do not plan a "date night" but I will plan an activity that she is welcome to participate or not. Her choice. |
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Post by jerri on Nov 16, 2020 0:47:51 GMT -5
I went to go get takeout as and watched him lay on the couch. I was mesmerized while waiting, on a virtual train ride in Canada and Norway (Pluto TV) I dressed up in a red sweater dress. Was pinning for a shared massage and he came out of his room wearing Santa Claus print pajamas! hahaha I said where do you want to go for date night takeout? He said, I don't want to go out. I thought, I can ruin it for myself by sulking or I can go out and get a treat of a dinner, so I did. Later, I think he was pretending to be half asleep as we were on the train ride. I didn't have much expectation, so not a shocker. I did say earlier, while I was "riding the train in Canada", you changed date to tonight. <Crickets chirping > This bothered me less than I thought it would. ETA: I will be asking again, next date night or maybe I get takeout two times this week with a reschedule!😎 Had a very sweet talk with my husband ( pillow-talk) I used very non-threatening statements like- I would like to start slow with intimacy and maybe you will feel more comfortable about it. I don't know what it's like for you because you mostly stay silent. I won't know what's good for you if you continue silence. He started opening up and it blew me away. I was trying to use validating statements before I said that. Like, I like it when you touched me and held onto my foot while we were laying on the couch. When I lay my head in your lap how are you caress my back. I brought in the percussion massage to give him a massage before he went to bed. He immediately turned off the light and rather than jump to conclusions, I asked him if he would like to start off slow. I said, instead of intimacy one night a week, during date night, what about intimacy sprinkled throughout the week. I followed Esther Perle. Prime video on Amazon has some of her work of some of her therapy sessions and I decided to be assertive and it worked. Each and every time she told them to ask for what they wanted. I asked him if he would like a 10 second kiss a start 2 intimacy that is sprinkled throughout the week. it was a wonderful start! 😘 |
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Post by jerri on Nov 16, 2020 4:24:54 GMT -5
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 16, 2020 6:32:30 GMT -5
Anyone else do date nights? Does it lead to anything? Yep, it leads to frustration and a lighter wallet. Now I do not care about the lighter wallet but I Feel that I got screwed on the deal and not in the way I had hoped to be screwed. So for me I do not plan a "date night" but I will plan an activity that she is welcome to participate or not. Her choice. This. All the Pollyanna relationship advisors talking about the bacon scented candles and "spice things up, change the scenery, go on vacation, etc. My wife reset last year, but sex seems to have zero relation to anything "special" we do. Her "moods" are random. It tells me there was nothing I could have done to put her in a mood back before "The Talk" and my initiating dating. Nothing short of putting my finger in the pin of the grenade did much of anything. I don't know that there is a time limit for a "reset". When is a reset marriage "fixed"? Fixed marriages can break again, but when people ask for success stories, what counts? |
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Post by jerri on Nov 17, 2020 13:59:35 GMT -5
This is close to what self-help books on fair fighting rules for really smooth communication. But understand arguments are found in every R. I should read this before every "talk" and I can practice on you guys!  cmhc.utexas.edu/fightingfair.html#1 |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 18, 2020 15:21:35 GMT -5
During the talk we are supposed to use "feeling" statements. Harder to attack l feel" statements rather than you' statements which is suggested by self help gurus. BBL
ETA:
Had a productive talk and he changed date night to Saturday. Intimacy and dinner will be on the menu. I don't know if he will follow through, I have my doubts.
He said it won't include sex because he said he hasn't gone to the doctor yet. He said erections are semi hard in the morning.
I'm surprised he didn't say no!
I selected physical intimacy off your list and kissing with statements like I feel lonely and can I get an update about possibly getting intimacy again? I suggested we add to date night. Commitment for once a week although he used to say yes before and not follow through.
I also told him we could do percussion massages. Nude cuddling would be nice. Massages used to lead to sex. FWB is going to try to get his wife a date night.
Anyone else do date nights? Does it lead to anything?Date nights always had the opposite effect. In hindsight, my W got anxious about my sexpectations early in any evening. It's been, quite literally, 15 years since I expected birthday sex, date night sex, etc. and 2 years since I expected any sex and moved permanently to another bedroom. But, the anxious "Oh, God, he's going to want sex" never want away. For 20 years I got the, "maybe in the morning" which had about a 1% success rate. |
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