Long time sexless marriage

Well, this is the crux of the matter, isn't it? As long as her applecart stays upright, she's fine with everything. And as long as you pretend that having your applecart overturned is okay, she's okay with that, too. And in reality, it is acceptable to you, too.

As I used to say on my blog, as long as the situation is tolerable, you will tolerate it. It is only when it becomes intolerable that you will do something that upsets both applecarts that she will have to deal with it.

Unilateral celibacy to "protect herself" from....what?

Some ILIASM members may want to check "borderline personality disorder."
The suddenness of the pedestal thing and turn on a dime reversal sounded more like the "switching" symptom of a BPD sufferer / attacker.
You're either God's gift to Earth or the devil incarnate, nothing in between.

Both of these and all diagnoses are forms of "why chasing" though, and may not be useful, long term.

I also advocate focusing in symptoms rather than getting wrapped up in diagnoses that some people will see as pejoratives and arguments ensue about who has what and why, derailing productive discussion / fights.
Diagnoses are loose groupings of symptoms, all of which can more precisely be targeted separately, but substantial professional experience is wrapped up in memorizing the names of these groups so they are given outsized importance.

Renee Swanson echoes the importance of the behavior being a consistent pattern. She observes that someone who jogs is not automatically an athlete. We all have our moments of selfishness, entitlement, or excessive self-confidence.

She used the term "flying monkeys." 

The part about keeping up appearances of the happy marriage I've read from numerous members. That could be for personal pride, it can also be to hide shame. The two reasons could have wildly different reactions if the refused spouse refuses to play along or contradicts the fairy tale. Both rage and despair could be the result.

The part about seeming to be one foot out the door but then refusing to let you leave? That smacks of Borderline also. "Abandonment issues" is the symptom. You may be the devil at that moment, but you are the constant in their life. It feeds into another critical symptom, "mirroring". A good portion of their identity is wrapped up in being your mate. They may not have a firm grasp on what and who they are, but "wife" or "girlfriend" is a big part of it and to lose the person they despise is to lose a chunk of what they are which is anxiety provoking. Anger or full reversal to "hysterical bonding" can result. In the latter case, a reversal of their hatred may trigger too, instantly forgiving all and seeing you as angelic again.

Not having to have sex she doesn't want is a "boundary" ILIASM members will run into a lot. What many who show up here do not have ready, though, is a recognition that non-consensual celibacy" would have been a boundary for you if you'd known it could become an issue before marrying. (Who talked about such things? Right?) This means monogamy may get broken if the boundary you did not realize was there gets violated. Deprivation is something done to a refused partner, just as unwanted sexual interaction is something done to the refuser. The monogamy necessitates this abuse, even if this abuse was unintentional. The refuser must decide which is more important, the monogamy, or their hesitance. Choosing refusal and refusing to tolerate non-monogamy signals absence of empathy and gross entitlement.

Never being happy can be entitlement, or it can be depression. Domaine hits don't last for them and so they decline into a stupor again.  White knight / Florence nightingales come to such sad sacks' rescue. The difference can be whether there are specific criticisms about what you did to please a partner, or whether the effort is acknowledged but is not met with appreciation or any reaction at all/ignored. Calling attention to it met with an unenthused "thanks" or impatience with "fishing for compliments".

These heroic partners may struggle with co-dependency, best treated with some self-care and establishing identities for themselves involving identification of pursuits that they, themselves, actually care about; a bigger struggle for some than others. This turnabout to the expression "Happy life, happy wife." may not lift your spouse's spirits (sorry I don't have a pithy expression about a depressed husband), but it should lift yours when you are no longer singularly obsessed with curing your spouse's self-centeredness and/or depression.

What changes would she like, and what changes is she willing to do?

Just curious. I don't expect her to fix anything.

Sorry. It is all on her. If she'd like for it to be on someone else, you can manage that, but does she understand the solution she's proposing? Making your physical loneliness someone else's problem to solve?

shrink4men.com/2011/01/19/presto-change-o-darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender/

It would behoove you to memorize the meaning of DARVO  ,and call out all the DARVO that you have been tolerating, and end it.


Well...after a long talk I'm once again the bad guy.-- Says who? Your wife. Again, she plays victim ( there is nothing, nothing wrong with expressing your needs and calling out your wife on her years and years of selfish denial, and the life long effects it has on you!)  BRAVO  for standing up for yourself!!

I should be happy with the occasional kiss because that is physical affection.  --Kisses? You mean passing pecs. I remember getting much more passionate kisses from the dog! A dog shows more joy, and reverence, and giving than the pecs we get from a refuser!

she's trying, I'm not.---You mean like her not having the time or the need for even 15 minutes of counseling? -Denial and refusal, extremely controlling and selfish.


when I talk about sex it makes her think that all I see her for. More gaslighting and DARVO.  Reversing and playing the victim.


Sounds like she's sending you a clear message of " never going to be wrong, refuse to change and you have to deal with it until she leaves you! And again, plays the victim and blames you because " she's not happy!"


Once the F.O.G-  ( Fear Obligation Guilt) is lifted you will clearly see how you are continually physiologically being abused and will take action by leaving and healing.  

You don't know? And it's your job to know. Or guess. Or acquire psychic powers.
She did tell you, though.

It's your job to change what she thinks when you talk about sex.
The question now, is how?

If it's a matter of doing or not doing something, will doing or not doing that/those thing/things make her think you're doing/not doing it in order to get sex?
Just to head that off, it'd be best to ask HOW you can do/not do that thing so she doesn't think that way.

You need to be trained in how to alter what she's thinking and/or conceal your ulterior motives so well that they'd be utterly missed and not even suspected.
Does she have a good book on proper mind control methods? All I see in the self-help section is how to detect controlling behavior and mind games. We want concealment strategies.

If she's got some good tips or you read up on some, send them along.


More seriously, part of THE Talk and not A talk is a deadline. There should be a limit to how long she can expect you to make efforts towards what she seems to be claiming is an achievable goal.
Perhaps she'll have a counteroffer and you'll find it acceptable, or so laughable that you hammer out a contract with a lawyer next day. Both useful outcomes.

If I recall, you're holding off on that, and you do you. Good plans can help, in themselves. You have goals and deadlines for yourself and that's progress which makes hope possible.

She equates my need for sex as seeing her as nothing more then an object to be used.

I'm holding off on setting a deadline because I know she will reject it and right then and there my marriage is over.
What I want to explore, with the help of the therapist is if there's a way for possible physical intimacy without sex and will I enjoy whatever form that takes? But if she's not willing to take any steps at all to help me then I know it's over. The burning question that shouldn't be this painful... is sex worth a marriage?