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Post by toughtiger on Nov 18, 2023 20:09:38 GMT -5
So I've pretty much made thr decision now that I want to leave the marriage. I don't know how to bring this up with her. I think that this will likely come as a shock to her but the reality is that I think both of us have been emotionally disconnected for so long I don't think there's a chance to recover even if she started having sex with me again. Timing is difficult for this conversation. I don't want to bring it up during the day while she's working. I also don't want to talk about while my son is home. I'm also thinking it would be nice to give my son a normal Christmas with only a few weeks to go. But I'm realistic to know that I'll be coming up with excuses in January...procrastination is a problem for me. exactly there is no "right" time....... holidays pop up all year too close to Bday / or whatever.... you know it as you said you are a procrastinator. I think there are many talks after the first one ....... some times bargaining and trying to play what else can we do.....give yourself time to fit those in Unless your both good actors and have zero body language ..... your son knows things are not going well and this will not be the surprise you may think it is. Make a plan .... perhaps work on friendly terms to separate the finances and such. it will take time to do things like selling to split assets etc .... when you talk with her maybe you both can work out a timeline. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Nov 23, 2023 8:44:42 GMT -5
So I had another session with my counselor this week. In my first session she asked me how sure am I that I want to separate. At the time it was about 70%.
This most resent session at the end she asked me the same thing and it really hit me. I'm 100% sure now. The only thing that's keeping me here is the logistics of selling the house and ensuring stability for my son.
I'm planning on talking to my wife about it after Christmas. Having made up my mind there's a sense of relief but at the same time there's a great deal of regret and sadness. I should be happy to have made up my mind but yesterday I was driving and I was absolutely overcome with emotion and had to pull over and collect myself before continuing.
I don't know if this part of the normal phases or not but I have a feeling it's going to get even harder the closer I get to January.
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miestas
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Post by miestas on Nov 23, 2023 10:55:56 GMT -5
I don't know if this part of the normal phases or not but I have a feeling it's going to get even harder the closer I get to January. There is no “normal”, but your feelings of sadness and regret that you have to do this are certainly expected. You probably will also have irrational feelings of guilt and fear. All you can do is ride those out. Keep telling yourself that these emotions are understandable, but irrational. Having been through this from the other side (my first wife ran off with my best friend at the time and then filed for divorce), I can tell you that after it is all over, the feeling of freedom and relief will be worth it. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 23, 2023 11:13:03 GMT -5
So I had another session with my counselor this week. In my first session she asked me how sure am I that I want to separate. At the time it was about 70%. This most resent session at the end she asked me the same thing and it really hit me. I'm 100% sure now. The only thing that's keeping me here is the logistics of selling the house and ensuring stability for my son. I'm planning on talking to my wife about it after Christmas. Having made up my mind there's a sense of relief but at the same time there's a great deal of regret and sadness. I should be happy to have made up my mind but yesterday I was driving and I was absolutely overcome with emotion and had to pull over and collect myself before continuing. I don't know if this part of the normal phases or not but I have a feeling it's going to get even harder the closer I get to January. I'm so glad for you that you have a counselor on your side! ( i did too!) has your counselor started directing/guiding you on legal advice? Mine did. He was recovering from a divorce,and his now ex was also a counselor. He made the mistake of giving in 100% into whatever her and her attorneys wanted , fully regretted it, and wanted to help me to not be a victim like he allowed himself to be. I'd also suggest you find a Divorce Recovery program in your area and get counselling and support there. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Nov 27, 2023 8:52:41 GMT -5
I'm so confused. My wife never even touches me or kisses me. And since we talked about the issues and we each started seeing councilors we haven't so much as hugged. She continues day to day like everything is good even though she hasn't even attempted any of the "homework" from her own councilor and stopped seeing them after 2 appointments.
Meanwhile I'm in a haze day to day just trying to make it past Christmas.
This morning for the first time in years, not in front of anyone, she stroked my beard and kissed me.
Its like feeding crumbs to a starving man, just reminding him how hungry he is.
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miestas
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Post by miestas on Nov 27, 2023 18:44:35 GMT -5
Actually, that is exactly what that is and the term for it is “breadcrumbing”. That means giving the least amount possible that they think will keep you interested and hoping that the crumbs will lead you to the whole loaf. It never does, and they use up the loaf by leaving the crumbs.
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Post by h on Nov 28, 2023 6:06:10 GMT -5
I'm so confused. My wife never even touches me or kisses me. And since we talked about the issues and we each started seeing councilors we haven't so much as hugged. She continues day to day like everything is good even though she hasn't even attempted any of the "homework" from her own councilor and stopped seeing them after 2 appointments. Meanwhile I'm in a haze day to day just trying to make it past Christmas. This morning for the first time in years, not in front of anyone, she stroked my beard and kissed me. Its like feeding crumbs to a starving man, just reminding him how hungry he is. My wife tries kissing me occasionally but I never stay for more than a simple peck. I'm not passionately making out with a woman who doesn't have sex with me. It's weird and awkward kissing someone who has no interest in anything more. |
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Post by aquacat on Nov 28, 2023 11:13:14 GMT -5
Actually, that is exactly what that is and the term for it is “breadcrumbing”. That means giving the least amount possible that they think will keep you interested and hoping that the crumbs will lead you to the whole loaf. It never does, and they use up the loaf by leaving the crumbs. This sounds familiar to me. She knows when I'm unhappy with our relationship she will do what she thinks is the minimum possible to try to keep me happy. |
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miestas
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Post by miestas on Nov 28, 2023 11:43:03 GMT -5
Actually, that is exactly what that is and the term for it is “breadcrumbing”. That means giving the least amount possible that they think will keep you interested and hoping that the crumbs will lead you to the whole loaf. It never does, and they use up the loaf by leaving the crumbs. This sounds familiar to me. She knows when I'm unhappy with our relationship she will do what she thinks is the minimum possible to try to keep me happy. This is actually on a list somewhere for what to avoid when dating someone. Breadcrumbing is one of the big red flags to avoid. It sounds like your wife is not trying to keep you happy. She is just giving the minimum possible to keep herself from feeling guilty. It is also possible that she does care how you feel, but is unable to give you what you need. It is also possible that she feels just as bad about all this as you do, but simply cannot discuss it. I can tell you from experience that this state will continue as long as you let it. She is obviously unable or unwilling to shake your situation up, so if you want something to happen, you are going to have to do it. I am sorry for your situation, but it will not change until you commit to a course of action and stick to it. You have to accept the fact that it will almost certainly be unpleasant and take more than one go to get to an understanding between you. It might be that both of you will feel better about discussing it with a neutral 3rd party like a counselor who can keep things on track. I don't remember if you have been this route already or not, sorry. |
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miestas
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Post by miestas on Nov 28, 2023 13:10:15 GMT -5
aquacat:
Actually, just wanted to point out here that spouses are rarely monsters, although I have read enough stuff on this forum to at least be open to the possibility that some spouses are truly abusive and do it because they like it. However, I also realize that I am only seeing one side of the situation, and only getting that side from an anonymous person on an online forum. Lots of salt needs to be in that diet.
Having said all that, I think it is worth approaching this discussion from a non-accusatory standpoint. That will never get you anywhere.
Just my two cents worth, having gone through a “this is all your fault” episode with my spouse very recently.
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m76
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Post by m76 on Nov 28, 2023 15:21:24 GMT -5
aquacat: Actually, just wanted to point out here that spouses are rarely monsters, although I have read enough stuff on this forum to at least be open to the possibility that some spouses are truly abusive and do it because they like it. However, I also realize that I am only seeing one side of the situation, and only getting that side from an anonymous person on an online forum. Lots of salt needs to be in that diet. Having said all that, I think it is worth approaching this discussion from a non-accusatory standpoint. That will never get you anywhere. Just my two cents worth, having gone through a “this is all your fault” episode with my spouse very recently. I'll agree with that. I don't think my wife truly realizes how much it hurts. And given that she's declared that she's asexual means I would be hurting her just as much if I forced the issue. So it comes to us just being incompatible |
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 30, 2023 7:21:08 GMT -5
I'm so confused. My wife never even touches me or kisses me. And since we talked about the issues and we each started seeing councilors we haven't so much as hugged. She continues day to day like everything is good even though she hasn't even attempted any of the "homework" from her own councilor and stopped seeing them after 2 appointments. Meanwhile I'm in a haze day to day just trying to make it past Christmas. This morning for the first time in years, not in front of anyone, she stroked my beard and kissed me. Its like feeding crumbs to a starving man, just reminding him how hungry he is. miestas Nov 27, 2023 at 6:44pm Actually, that is exactly what that is and the term for it is “breadcrumbing”. That means giving the least amount possible that they think will keep you interested and hoping that the crumbs will lead you to the whole loaf. It never does, and they use up the loaf by leaving the crumbs.Maybe this stroke and kiss is part of her "homework" and a necessary, frustrating step towards more normal married interaction? Question is, was it a one off? Does it recur, does it change a little? Does it escalate? Your reaction may be key to her next choices. You can still make plans to exit, even as you give a good faith effort to be receptive and reciprocate in ways she's up for. If what she's up for doesn't rise above your floor, maintain course for whatever option you choose: stay and cope, outsource, divorce. What she does is additional, not in lieu. Her efforts need not alter yours. Asexuals, it is claimed, can have sex for others' sake. Dr. Psychmom points out many women are responsively sexual. They don't want it, they wait for a "mood" that never comes, but when they graciously indulge, find it enjoyable for their own sake. If your needs aren't met to some minimum level (you need never disclose what this level is) Mrs. m76 may need to understand this means having nothing but housemates after you leave, or tolerating a mistress for you. These may be strong motivators to at least behave like an ordinary spouse even if it isn't part of her biology. Dr. PsychMom has repeatedly observed men do not want to go antiquing. But we do to make our wives happy. Same thing, but their unpreferred activity takes all afternoon, ours lasts an hour...if that. Sometimes spouses can misunderstand indulgence as a mutual choice. "They joined me at the farmers' market, that must mean they like it too." No. We do what we don't prefer for your sake. But for some reason sex can never be an unchosen activity you do anyway. Starfish sex would be the equivalent of sneering at the garden gnomes and asking "Another store? Haven't we done this enough? Kick off is 4:30." Wrecks the mood of the experience and negates the goodwill from the indulgence. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Nov 30, 2023 7:55:02 GMT -5
I'm so confused. My wife never even touches me or kisses me. And since we talked about the issues and we each started seeing councilors we haven't so much as hugged. She continues day to day like everything is good even though she hasn't even attempted any of the "homework" from her own councilor and stopped seeing them after 2 appointments. Meanwhile I'm in a haze day to day just trying to make it past Christmas. This morning for the first time in years, not in front of anyone, she stroked my beard and kissed me. Its like feeding crumbs to a starving man, just reminding him how hungry he is. miestas Nov 27, 2023 at 6:44pm Actually, that is exactly what that is and the term for it is “breadcrumbing”. That means giving the least amount possible that they think will keep you interested and hoping that the crumbs will lead you to the whole loaf. It never does, and they use up the loaf by leaving the crumbs.Maybe this stroke and kiss is part of her "homework" and a necessary, frustrating step towards more normal married interaction? Question is, was it a one off? Does it recur, does it change a little? Does it escalate? Your reaction may be key to her next choices. You can still make plans to exit, even as you give a good faith effort to be receptive and reciprocate in ways she's up for. If what she's up for doesn't rise above your floor, maintain course for whatever option you choose: stay and cope, outsource, divorce. What she does is additional, not in lieu. Her efforts need not alter yours. Asexuals, it is claimed, can have sex for others' sake. Dr. Psychmom points out many women are responsively sexual. They don't want it, they wait for a "mood" that never comes, but when they graciously indulge, find it enjoyable for their own sake. If your needs aren't met to some minimum level (you need never disclose what this level is) Mrs. m76 may need to understand this means having nothing but housemates after you leave, or tolerating a mistress for you. These may be strong motivators to at least behave like an ordinary spouse even if it isn't part of her biology. Dr. PsychMom has repeatedly observed men do not want to go antiquing. But we do to make our wives happy. Same thing, but their unpreferred activity takes all afternoon, ours lasts an hour...if that. Sometimes spouses can misunderstand indulgence as a mutual choice. "They joined me at the farmers' market, that must mean they like it too." No. We do what we don't prefer for your sake. But for some reason sex can never be an unchosen activity you do anyway. Starfish sex would be the equivalent of sneering at the garden gnomes and asking "Another store? Haven't we done this enough? Kick off is 4:30." Wrecks the mood of the experience and negates the goodwill from the indulgence. It was a one off and would not lead to any escalation. I believe at the beginning of our marriage the sex was exactly and you described where she would never initiate but would enjoy it. Now if I initiate, even something as putting a hand on her hip in bed she will push it away saying I'm too hot. I'm not sure I've defined my minimum level. But I think it would be at least some mutual sexual touching. Right now her limit seems to be a hug and a kiss. And now she's she set her potential limits as massaging I haven't had any interest in pursuing that as I feel it would only lead to more frustration at this point. So now I'm depressed. My wife just picked up on this last night and asked me what was wrong but my son was right there so I just said I'm tired. Unless I chose to accept things as they are, I know I have two choices. 1) have the real talk when I'm actually prepared to leave. ( January is my timeline) or 2) attempt couples counciling. Edit: A note on my level of depression. I've done a test with my counselor and it's at a moderate level, not enough to effect my physical health. I have a hard time talking to my wife about these needs as it feels like I'm just whining about nothing. There's more important things then sex right? It makes it sound like that's all I care about when I bring it up. |
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miestas
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Post by miestas on Nov 30, 2023 11:27:50 GMT -5
Hmmmm. I don’t think the issue is whether sex is, in itself, important or not. The issue is that it is important enough to YOU, that the lack of mutual physical and emotional attraction has you feeling depressed. That should make it important to your wife.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 30, 2023 11:51:31 GMT -5
Hmmmm. I don’t think the issue is whether sex is, in itself, important or not. The issue is that it is important enough to YOU, that the lack of mutual physical and emotional attraction has you feeling depressed. That should make it important to your wife. Should" make it important to your wife.... but if she's anything like my asexual/greysexual ex W. She's only concerned with what pleases her ONLY, doing the least minimal amount to shut you up ( bread crumbing, dangling of the carrot , moving of the goal post, DARVO) While she builds up her 'arsenal' of finger pointing excuses so she can alienate the children during and after the divorce. These are the things that are just as important and can destroy a man, and a family. |
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