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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 17, 2024 12:47:26 GMT -5
The problem is, you won't be done. Without a major intervention, you will never break from her web of lies. It's shocking to know she has been manipulating you like this since you were teenagers. As mentioned by member isthisit earlier, your W was looking for the least amount of effort needed to buy another year or so. I'm curious if she even saw the whole thing through or if she just managed a few strokes. In any event, if this world is where you choose to remain, I wish you the best. But I implore you to consider your friendly co-worker, if you still have contact with her. Do yourself the biggest favor you could ever do, and go to her and let her have you for one night. No person here can free you from the grip of manipulation, nor can your current therapist. But maybe your co-worker can. If you experience real sexual touch...not from negotiation or assignments or blackmail, but from REAL desire, maybe that will break you free. My personal opinion is that this is something that she's made an effort to do knowing its something I wanted. So that's worth exploring to see how far that will go. My biggest concern, beyond the baby steps we're taking is why she really doesn't want me touching her. It definitely feels like she's avoiding the slightest possibility of being aroused. There's a high level of avoidance still happening here and it's something to discuss further. We've also been using the metaphor of buckets of needs and how my bucket is empty. After we finished last night she said "I hope that filled your bucket." Certainly made it sound like she got nothing out of it. WHY? You are in the same marriage as her. Why is sex an effort and not a restorative activity? If, because of reasons, sex with you has become a depletive activity for her - AND SHE HAS MADE CLEAR TO YOU THAT SHE WANTS YOU TO KNOW THAT - what trajectory are the two of you on, if you think sex with her is a restorative activity? Maybe ask her what she means by "I hope that filled your bucket"? Past tense. What does that mean? Because it doesn't sound like her own joy at having pleased you, or that you have shared some kind of sexual expression, nor that she is looking forward to doing it again. It sounds like a chore. Did she mean it that way? Imagine the reasons sex with someone else would be a depletive activity for yourself? It would likely be because you are disgusted by that person or you don't like them very much, or perhaps because the circumstance of having sex (maybe your boss, or a home invader, or a prison guard), is disturbing to you in some other way. So it's either (in her mind) something about you, something about something she thinks you did or do, or something about the circumstance of being married to you. And having sex with you represents the ultimate intimacy when what she wants is distance. She's telling you, "I don't want to have sex with you". She's told you and shown you this. She let you know it at the moment you asked her. And after she did it, she made sure you were aware of the effort she made -- which wasn't for her. It sounds like she wants you to know she did a favour for her and she got nothing out of it. You are asking to have sex with someone who you both know, have been shown, and told, doesn't want to have sex with you. Whether she says it out loud or not, that's the situation you are both in. Is that progress that you got a handjob and that she made sure you were aware it is transactional? What do you think she thinks of you for accepting it? I get it, on your side - you have human needs and some some level (especially at this point) sex might be taken as proof of desire or proof of love - or even an absence of whatever constant antipathy exists toward you that you are both swimming in every day. Sex for you is a celebration of the feelings you have. So if she doesn't want to have sex with you, what feelings does she have. You mentioned upthread that she says she doesn't think of sex much - it just doesn't occur to her. Meanwhile she reads steamy romance novels while also - gambling her entire marriage - around the absence of sexual expression between you. She doesn't think about it? I guarantee it's front and center in her mind - a very complex and constant game of how to avoid sex with you and keep the marriage. It's likely the most important thing to her. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 17, 2024 19:27:45 GMT -5
You mention her reading /writing "steamy romance novels". I'll confess that I've never read one. Are they really that full of sex/intimacy/romance?
What % of the novel is physical sex? The Touch love language? ( I'm guessing very small) How much of these "steamy romance novels" are the other 4 love languages? ( I'm guessing a very large part of the novel-- your wife is living a novel, delusional life!)
You can still be receiving ( or mostly giving) all the other 4 love languages in a sexless marriage meanwhile the sexless marriage partner (your W), selfishly,intentionally, proudly DETACHED herself from the one love language ( touch) that is an expected duty of a marriage!!
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Post by isthisit on Jun 17, 2024 21:14:45 GMT -5
I don’t read this genre of fiction, but plenty of women do and I have wished I could turn off my hearing in the break room when romance novels are discussed. I think there are two types, some with description of sexual activity, and others where the story describes the heroine being thrown onto the bed by the lusty hero… cut to the morning with messed up sheets and true love.
Unbelievable to me that adults buy and read this stuff. I have noticed that the women happily discussing avoidance tactics are the very same reading this nonsense. Go figure.
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Post by northstarmom on Jun 17, 2024 21:57:24 GMT -5
I've actually read that women with higher sex drives are the ones reading steamy romance novels....
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Missingout
Full Member
Posts: 244
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by Missingout on Jun 17, 2024 22:00:34 GMT -5
I've actually read that women with higher sex drives are the ones reading steamy romance novels.... Do you? Or do you make your own in real life😉 |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 18, 2024 7:00:02 GMT -5
I don’t read this genre of fiction, but plenty of women do and I have wished I could turn off my hearing in the break room when romance novels are discussed. I think there are two types, some with description of sexual activity, and others where the story describes the heroine being thrown onto the bed by the lusty hero… cut to the morning with messed up sheets and true love. Unbelievable to me that adults buy and read this stuff. I have noticed that the women happily discussing avoidance tactics are the very same reading this nonsense. Go figure. Just guessing- these same women view porn and fantasies over bondage. Meanwhile their avoidance at home keeps the H more and more distant afraid to always be labeled wrong. Sounds like novels about cheating - the story describes the heroine being thrown onto the bed by the lusty hero… cut to the morning with messed up sheets and true love.
Meanwhile the "yes dear, faithful, boring ,gained a few pounds, lost a lot of hair middle aged H" is left with the real world reality - Taking car of the children ,working 60 hrs. a week, tolerating her annoying relatives, doing all the house work, all the responsibilities , listening to her constant mothering, " did you remember to... are you going to... when are you going to....you should have done.... why didn't you do....don't do.... no! don't buy that.... no! I can't do that.....that's not the right way..... Meanwhile "chad" will pump and dump her , leaving all the nagging and responsibilities for the good ,dependable, faithful, sex starved H... what a "novel idea" |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 18, 2024 7:05:49 GMT -5
I've actually read that women with higher sex drives are the ones reading steamy romance novels.... Sadly what we get to read are to many of the "Tom Brady" marriages. Even the 666 H's wife ( with the high sex drive) goes after her "just a friend" jujitsu instructor, and takes the kids on vacation with him! |
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Post by isthisit on Jun 18, 2024 10:14:52 GMT -5
I don’t read this genre of fiction, but plenty of women do and I have wished I could turn off my hearing in the break room when romance novels are discussed. I think there are two types, some with description of sexual activity, and others where the story describes the heroine being thrown onto the bed by the lusty hero… cut to the morning with messed up sheets and true love. Unbelievable to me that adults buy and read this stuff. I have noticed that the women happily discussing avoidance tactics are the very same reading this nonsense. Go figure. Just guessing- these same women view porn and fantasies over bondage. Well, I can’t say for certain, but I am having a real hard time imagining the women in my break room indulging in such exotic-ness. Porn is disgusting and only aberrant delinquents indulge … was more their vibe. These are queens of avoidance with endless top tips to keep H at arms length once the offspring are safely provided and the poor guy is trapped. And yep, I got to listen to this with an arse half the size of theirs and a H with a broken dick. Sometimes life just isn’t fair. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 18, 2024 11:54:00 GMT -5
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 18, 2024 12:56:30 GMT -5
I found that the majority of "I am looking to take things slow" women I've dated, when asked about how they manage their lack of urgency, had some kind of backup/fwb. They did not frame it as them already being in an existing unsatisfying/bad relationship. Instead, they considered it some form of "self care". Having been in an actual open relationship for several years, I used to take this a narcissistic self-delusional red flag. It's one thing to say, "I'm in a non-monogamous relationship" and own that. There are certain skills and caveats and levels of buy-in to be negotiated all around that. But, the level of narcissism required to sit across someone on a first or second date and articulate an expectation for a fulsome, quality relationship aimed at marriage - thus "taking it slow" with that person -- while trying to get back home in time to shag the FWB who "could never be your boyfriend" is astounding - and remarkably common. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 18, 2024 18:52:21 GMT -5
the level of narcissism required to sit across someone on a first or second date and articulate an expectation for a fulsome, quality relationship aimed at marriage - thus "taking it slow" with that person -- while trying to get back home in time to shag the FWB who "could never be your boyfriend" is astounding - and remarkably common. In a future world, I wonder if doing this deliberately may work well. Women will want that boy-toy FWB for lusty fun, a platonic co-parent (likely cohabitating) father of her children (with the intent to be celibate fully disclosed up front and intentional, perhaps even having sex for procreation only.), and serial monogamy husbands to have deep meaningful connection with for 2-4 years until the spark dies. It addresses many of the complaints and fears of the current time. No more broken homes for the kids, no more stultifying boredom, no more entrapment in loveless marriage, no more "settling", no more FOMO if someone who is a better fit comes along, no more long silences when everything has been said and the cozy silence has just grown tedious. The fellas pick their ideal mother for their children if they want any, an exciting, sexy wife for 2-4 years, and a wild child girlfriend who looks you up sometimes to do that thing you like. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 19, 2024 9:08:38 GMT -5
the level of narcissism required to sit across someone on a first or second date and articulate an expectation for a fulsome, quality relationship aimed at marriage - thus "taking it slow" with that person -- while trying to get back home in time to shag the FWB who "could never be your boyfriend" is astounding - and remarkably common. In a future world, I wonder if doing this deliberately may work well. Women will want that boy-toy FWB for lusty fun, a platonic co-parent (likely cohabitating) father of her children (with the intent to be celibate fully disclosed up front and intentional, perhaps even having sex for procreation only.), and serial monogamy husbands to have deep meaningful connection with for 2-4 years until the spark dies. It addresses many of the complaints and fears of the current time. No more broken homes for the kids, no more stultifying boredom, no more entrapment in loveless marriage, no more "settling", no more FOMO if someone who is a better fit comes along, no more long silences when everything has been said and the cozy silence has just grown tedious. The fellas pick their ideal mother for their children if they want any, an exciting, sexy wife for 2-4 years, and a wild child girlfriend who looks you up sometimes to do that thing you like. Current trend has men increasingly checking out of dating altogether, so I don't think it's headed in that direction for building families. |
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Post by sundayblue0071 on Jun 21, 2024 21:16:41 GMT -5
I'm not a great fan of TED Talks anymore because too many of them are just bloviating self-promotional commercials. However, this one talk, by therapist Michele Weiner-Davis appropriately titled "the sex starved marriage" I found to be excellent. I was able to get my wife to watch it with me and it did prompt us to FINALLY schedule some sex between us. But more time passed and we fell right back into our rut. But I'm posting the link (it's a YouTube video) for anyone who hasn't watched it before and hopefully you get something out of it.
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m76
Full Member
Posts: 416
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Post by m76 on Jul 4, 2024 13:43:25 GMT -5
I'm hitting a wall.
With all my talk of wanted to stick it out a year and see if we're able to progress. I'm having a problem I never saw coming but I'm sure our more experienced members anticipated...
I've gotten a few scheduled pity hand jobs now but the last couple of "dates" have been cancelled from her side for various reasons. We've typically scheduled Thursdays since neither of us have anything going on. I was expecting her to cancel and she did, she's going out tonight for "me time" but she's asked me when we want to schedule the next one....
The problem is that I don't want to. The pity HJ's and not allowing me to touch her have turned me completely off. I'd rather jerk off when I'm feeling like it rather that have her do it when I know she doesn't give a crap.
"The talk" isn't even on my radar right now. I don't want to coerce her into something I know she doesn't care about, we talked about my needs enough through counciling. Basically I want to tell her I'm done but we can be room mates until my son is off to university.
My work friend that I had thought of getting closer with is not an option, I was recently moved to a management role above them.
I hate being in this limbo.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 4, 2024 16:36:54 GMT -5
I was expecting her to cancel and she did, she's going out tonight for "me time" but she's asked me when we want to schedule the next one.... The problem is that I don't want to. The pity HJ's and not allowing me to touch her have turned me completely off. I'd rather jerk off when I'm feeling like it rather that have her do it when I know she doesn't give a crap. "The talk" isn't even on my radar right now. I don't want to coerce her into something I know she doesn't care about, we talked about my needs enough through counciling. Basically I want to tell her I'm done but we can be room mates until my son is off to university. I'm sorry m76. It seems from what you said and the way this was structured that there are no surprises here. If she doesn't see you as a sexual partner, then any subsequent encounter is simply going to be an exercise in expressing this. She's now blowing it off for "me time" which tells you that she doesn't see this as anything fulfilling to her, and you are rightly seeing it as something she doesn't want to do and doesn't enjoy. You are getting to the truth of your arrangement and how you feel. She's not offering anything here that you can't just do yourself. I had an acquaintance years ago - from a different culture than mine, let's say. From time to time, he employed the services of paid escorts and he didn't understand why I didn't do the same. I thought about it for a while, and considered it in the context of why for many people, even sexting is somehow preferable to something solo. It's about the connection. It's about the meaning behind it - making a connection - about each person's pleasure MATTERING and enjoying it. Transactional, mechanical sex that's treated as work has no quality or joy in it, and it sounds like it can be done in such a way as to express disgust. Nobody wants that. I'm sure you don't. I think that looking at the relationship you have and getting authentic about it, naming and accepting what it actually is - is not a bad place to start. Get to the truth of the relationship first and then decide what that truth means as a next step. |
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