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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 5, 2024 20:04:24 GMT -5
Same here. She will occasionally give me a hug when laying in bed and if I turn to kiss her she does the same think m76's wife does. The few times I've tried kissing her she does the "if you want to do anything you know you have to go close the door". I hate that. Why can't she do it or why can't she initiate?? Why is the door open? In any event, same suggestion to you as m76. Whatever she provides, cut it in half and give that back. What happens? |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 5, 2024 20:16:12 GMT -5
We had another councilling session. So one of the things we talked about was minimum and maximum comfort levels for intimacy.
For example, her min would be holding hands, kissing is her max.
My min is kissing, with no known max.
The therapist pushed a bit harder and asked if kissing was the max that happened would that be enough? I responded that I hoped for more.
We also talked about bidding on needs, for example when I ask for a hug that's an emotional bid and how rejections to those "bids" leads to withdrawing and distancing.
She actually cried a bit not realizing how much her rejections over the years were hurting me.
I do think that after this session she has a better understanding of my needs. And I'm still hopeful we can make progress. The next couple of weeks will be the real test.
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Post by toughtiger on Feb 5, 2024 20:19:50 GMT -5
We had another councilling session. So one of the things we talked about was minimum and maximum comfort levels for intimacy. For example, her min would be holding hands, kissing is her max. My min is kissing, with no known max. The therapist pushed a bit harder and asked if kissing was the max that happened would that be enough? I responded that I hoped for more. We also talked about bidding on needs, for example when I ask for a hug that's an emotional bid and how rejections to those "bids" leads to withdrawing and distancing. She actually cried a bit not realizing how much her rejections over the years were hurting me. I do think that after this session she has a better understanding of my needs. And I'm still hopeful we can make progress. The next couple of weeks will be the real test. i am happy for you if she really sees what she is doing .... i just do not get why some think ... I had no idea .... i try to always put myself in another persons shoes ... to understand what y actions are doing.... i had him kiss me the other day i kissed back and he almost ran away .... called his bluff |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 5, 2024 20:25:13 GMT -5
We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc. Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted hugged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away. It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house. Hm. Maybe key is letting her initiate her inadequate gestures without reciprocation. She keeps thinking you're going to up the ante? If her hands came around your back to your stomach or ribs, perhaps a single stroke of the back of her hand. Over before it's begun, then nothing. An acknowledgement; a gesture of approval. Receive any affection she offers, offer less in return. She kisses you, squeeze her shoulder then turn away. She gooses your tush, you wink and duck out. She gives you a BJ, you give her a foot rub. She's already calling the shots, so let her. Disarm and stay on target keeping close ties with the kid. Cultivate a social circle to take up spare time when she's no longer going to be a major part of it. I'd think that could maintain the pleasant home, as unfair as it is. Enough romance to offer respect and acceptance, but not passion. Intellectualizing the exchange that is supposed to come naturally. Providing affection from the cerebrum, not the heart. It's choreography, not a dance. If she wants your heart back, she can ask. - first...I want to say "Thank You so much for your time and wisdom that you freely share with me and the rest of us!! ( you have an excellent writing style too!) Now...I don't want to be a 'Debbie Downer'.... but.. I wanted to share my own similar experience. (hope I'm wrong) Very close to the day of filling for the divorce, my then "W" gave me her ceremonial peck on the lips in the kitchen, in front of the children, along with the cold " see you when I get home, did you remember to do.... blah,blah,blah? ( the answer was always" yes", I was way ahead of the game. Even my teenage children noticed her demeaning, controlling tone, and shyed away from her, and most-likely where being groomed to 'disrespect' dad for not standing up to her)) Next day, I intentionally turned my face and received an even smaller peck on the cheek only. The teens all saw it. ( I'm sure I had a very stern, upset look about me! And rightfully so, after years of being " conditioned into acceptance of receiving token breadcrumbs!) That ended any form of fake gesture pecks! Then came the 'announcement of divorce' she shortly moved out of the bedroom. She actually seemed relieved to not have to put up her fake facade ( fake mask) Who really knows? Fortunately now that it's been over 5 yrs. My memory of the bad past is fading!! |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 5, 2024 20:57:32 GMT -5
We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc. Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted hugged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away. It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house. Hm. Maybe key is letting her initiate her inadequate gestures without reciprocation. She keeps thinking you're going to up the ante? If her hands came around your back to your stomach or ribs, perhaps a single stroke of the back of her hand. Over before it's begun, then nothing. An acknowledgement; a gesture of approval. Receive any affection she offers, offer less in return. She kisses you, squeeze her shoulder then turn away. She gooses your tush, you wink and duck out. She gives you a BJ, you give her a foot rub. She's already calling the shots, so let her. Disarm and stay on target keeping close ties with the kid. Cultivate a social circle to take up spare time when she's no longer going to be a major part of it. I'd think that could maintain the pleasant home, as unfair as it is. Enough romance to offer respect and acceptance, but not passion. Intellectualizing the exchange that is supposed to come naturally. Providing affection from the cerebrum, not the heart. It's choreography, not a dance. If she wants your heart back, she can ask. I'll see where things go in a few weeks but I'm not interested in playing any games like this. If she's not willing to make any improvement in the next few weeks after whats been talked about, then I don't expect there ever will be and it'll be time to move on. |
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Post by csl on Feb 6, 2024 8:03:14 GMT -5
We had another councilling session. So one of the things we talked about was minimum and maximum comfort levels for intimacy. For example, her min would be holding hands, kissing is her max. My min is kissing, with no known max. The therapist pushed a bit harder and asked if kissing was the max that happened would that be enough? I responded that I hoped for more. We also talked about bidding on needs, for example when I ask for a hug that's an emotional bid and how rejections to those "bids" leads to withdrawing and distancing. She actually cried a bit not realizing how much her rejections over the years were hurting me. I do think that after this session she has a better understanding of my needs. And I'm still hopeful we can make progress. The next couple of weeks will be the real test. I am not sure if you are the poster who greeted me with "I don't do religion," but even so, you might want to push your antipathy aside and read Chris Taylor's (Forgiven Wife blog) post, Your Husband's Hurt; share it with your counselor and your wife. The counselor, because s/he needs to know that her MAX is your MIN; your wife, just in case her distress at your hurt isn't crocodile tears. Chris collected a gut-wrenching numbers of "testimonies" about sexless marriage pain. It might be helpful for your next counseling session. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 6, 2024 8:18:29 GMT -5
We had another councilling session. So one of the things we talked about was minimum and maximum comfort levels for intimacy. For example, her min would be holding hands, kissing is her max. My min is kissing, with no known max. The therapist pushed a bit harder and asked if kissing was the max that happened would that be enough? I responded that I hoped for more. We also talked about bidding on needs, for example when I ask for a hug that's an emotional bid and how rejections to those "bids" leads to withdrawing and distancing. She actually cried a bit not realizing how much her rejections over the years were hurting me. I do think that after this session she has a better understanding of my needs. And I'm still hopeful we can make progress. The next couple of weeks will be the real test. I am not sure if you are the poster who greeted me with "I don't do religion," but even so, you might want to push your antipathy aside and read Chris Taylor's (Forgiven Wife blog) post, Your Husband's Hurt; share it with your counselor and your wife. The counselor, because s/he needs to know that her MAX is your MIN; your wife, just in case her distress at your hurt isn't crocodile tears. Chris collected a gut-wrenching numbers of "testimonies" about sexless marriage pain. It might be helpful for your next counseling session. Thank you, I've started reading those and even just a few quotes in, it's gut wrenching to hear other men going through the same thing. Through the the counciling session I did open up about the years of rejection and depression. I think she gets it now, she apologized and said she didn't understand that it's not just sex. They way I described it was that its not the hug or a kiss with the physical pleasure from that, it's deeper, knowing that she needs that affection from me. So with our homework of having at least two evenings a week working on physical touch at her maximum, I have some hope of reconnecting. What I'm not truly sure of right now is if her maximum is actually going to be enough for me. I'm willing to try but if there's no real connection again and it seems like she doesn't want to do it then I'm planing to leave. I've finally reached the point where I can say being a friend isn't enough, I need a lover and someone that needs and wants me as much as I want them. I'm prepared to give her a chance but I'm also willing to go through the short term pain of separation to be free to find that happiness. |
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Post by aquacat on Feb 6, 2024 9:36:49 GMT -5
Same here. She will occasionally give me a hug when laying in bed and if I turn to kiss her she does the same think m76's wife does. The few times I've tried kissing her she does the "if you want to do anything you know you have to go close the door". I hate that. Why can't she do it or why can't she initiate?? Why is the door open? In any event, same suggestion to you as m76. Whatever she provides, cut it in half and give that back. What happens? We have pets so the door normally stays open so that they can come and go as they please. |
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Post by toughtiger on Feb 6, 2024 9:41:37 GMT -5
I would agree with M76 there is a point where being supportive and friends is simply NOT enough....
Not sure if i think the min/ max limits are a good therapy idea as it could just be an excuse that "YOU KNEW her max...."
she may have cried in session but i doubt she did not realize the damage she has caused.. i just do not see how it is possible for refusers to NOT see what they are doing.. crying breakthroughs are a show for the therapist IMO
are all these breakthroughs coming as she is now well aware you are exploring your options and divorce is one option on the table..... it is amazing how many "just realize" when the divorce chess piece is on the board.
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 6, 2024 9:47:36 GMT -5
I would agree with M76 there is a point where being supportive and friends is simply NOT enough.... Not sure if i think the min/ max limits are a good therapy idea as it could just be an excuse that "YOU KNEW her max...." she may have cried in session but i doubt she did not realize the damage she has caused.. i just do not see how it is possible for refusers to NOT see what they are doing.. crying breakthroughs are a show for the therapist IMO are all these breakthroughs coming as she is now well aware you are exploring your options and divorce is one option on the table..... it is amazing how many "just realize" when the divorce chess piece is on the board. Yes, I don't know how anyone could not know. But I'm trying to be pragmatic in the sense that as she's explained her asexuality to me she doesn't feel any arousal at all, ever. So sex is just not something she associates with the emotional connection. I've laid it out pretty clear that the physical connection and emotional connection go hand in hand for me. |
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Post by week5of35years on Feb 6, 2024 10:00:33 GMT -5
My W denied to my face any knowledge of our "conversations", knowing why I was angry when I said I was frustrated, oblivious to the harm she was causing.... As we have moved forward she has admitted she clearly knew what she was doing and the pain it caused me, but did not really care and justified it to herself as "tit for Tat" against unknown minor slights I had caused her and because at different points we had grown distant so basically she did not care if she treated me like shit...... m76 my friend you are rocking the boat and threatening the status quo your other half has got used to.... if it does not go her way pls be prepared for the fireworks as the "oh my I never understood this......" façade comes crashing down and you become the wrecker of all that is good ... |
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Post by week5of35years on Feb 6, 2024 10:32:37 GMT -5
I would agree with M76 there is a point where being supportive and friends is simply NOT enough.... Not sure if i think the min/ max limits are a good therapy idea as it could just be an excuse that "YOU KNEW her max...." she may have cried in session but i doubt she did not realize the damage she has caused.. i just do not see how it is possible for refusers to NOT see what they are doing.. crying breakthroughs are a show for the therapist IMO are all these breakthroughs coming as she is now well aware you are exploring your options and divorce is one option on the table..... it is amazing how many "just realize" when the divorce chess piece is on the board. Yes, I don't know how anyone could not know. But I'm trying to be pragmatic in the sense that as she's explained her asexuality to me she doesn't feel any arousal at all, ever. So sex is just not something she associates with the emotional connection. I've laid it out pretty clear that the physical connection and emotional connection go hand in hand for me. My W told me she "had never wanted a sex life at all" from the day we got together (so... 28 yrs of lies) - that sounds about as "pretend asexual" as it gets... I cannot be certain of motives, but I suspect now after The Talk, a sex life is a better option than divorced life ... |
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Post by worksforme2 on Feb 6, 2024 11:43:59 GMT -5
My W told me she "had never wanted a sex life at all" from the day we got together (so... 28 yrs of lies) - that sounds about as "pretend asexual" as it gets... I cannot be certain of motives, but I suspect now after The Talk, a sex life is a better option than divorced life ... You never know which way a refuser will choose when confronted with the possibility of seperation/divorce. After a # of talks and resets my X became non consenseual one last time. And I pulled the pin, took off my ring and started distancing myself from her. We were both in our mid 60's. She opted for divorce rather than a don't ask don't tell or FWB for me. Often the threat of divorce is enough to bring about change, but not always. I suspect financial well being can play a big role in determining outcome. My then W was well paid, so she could afford the single life, and that is what she choose. |
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Post by isthisit on Feb 6, 2024 18:50:39 GMT -5
but I suspect now after The Talk, a sex life is a better option than divorced life ... I think you nailed it here. If that’s okay with you, then it is all good. Personally, I wanted the real thing or no marriage, but no-one’s situation is the same. |
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Post by isthisit on Feb 6, 2024 18:59:00 GMT -5
I've laid it out pretty clear that the physical connection and emotional connection go hand in hand for me. This is the essence of everything here. It isn’t just about the sexlessness. It is about the misery of an emotionally impoverished life which can feel like it destroys your soul. I remember way back when I first arrived here saying something very similar to what you have stated above and someone pointing out that this is normal and healthy and as life should be. I felt like I had been hit by a truck. Just being given permission to want and value something so obvious helped me see the extent to which I had lost sight of the horizon in my marriage. I left and have never regretted it for a single second. But, perhaps that’s not the case for you, I wish you well, it is fiendishly hard to know what to do and when, if and how to act. |
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