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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 30, 2024 13:18:15 GMT -5
There was also the built in " intruder - home invader" 13 yrs of her father living in the same house with us, constantly at every meal, every event, and seated in his chair looking out his door monitoring everyone's actions at the house, reporting back to the dictator wife (his daughter). A perfect example of triangulation. ( a good example of your invalidation) I've felt another "intruder" a "common enemy" couples should fight together is the Coolidge effect. The tendency for long attached/married people to wean from a sexual relationship. That biological tendency is like that argumentative personality PsychHacks says threatens the marriage. The problem in some of our cases is that the refuser welcomes the intruder in the house mistaking it for a blood relative or old school chum and doesn't know better to toss it out of the house on its ear. m76 You're not sounding much like a "Nice Guy". What are your plans if you don't get that respect you think you deserve? I'm hard pressed to think of anything you could do that would qualify as "Nice Guy". Surely there will be those who deny your "Nice Guy" moniker if you perform the obvious consequences. I'd add to worksforme2's suggestions, forge stronger bonds to your son. Go Carts, hikes, concerts, paintball. Whatever. The dishes can wait. In case of split, poisoning his mind gets tougher. Wishes you'd fight more? Once you have paperwork lined up, schedule the opening of the marriage. Now that's a fight. Make her defend her celibacy. Then any passive-aggressive starfish bullshit. Oh, the fights will be epic. Always with the manilla folder and a fresh Bic pen within arms reach under the mattress. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Jan 31, 2024 9:36:30 GMT -5
There was also the built in " intruder - home invader" 13 yrs of her father living in the same house with us, constantly at every meal, every event, and seated in his chair looking out his door monitoring everyone's actions at the house, reporting back to the dictator wife (his daughter). A perfect example of triangulation. ( a good example of your invalidation) I've felt another "intruder" a "common enemy" couples should fight together is the Coolidge effect. The tendency for long attached/married people to wean from a sexual relationship. That biological tendency is like that argumentative personality PsychHacks says threatens the marriage. The problem in some of our cases is that the refuser welcomes the intruder in the house mistaking it for a blood relative or old school chum and doesn't know better to toss it out of the house on its ear. m76 You're not sounding much like a "Nice Guy". What are your plans if you don't get that respect you think you deserve? I'm hard pressed to think of anything you could do that would qualify as "Nice Guy". Surely there will be those who deny your "Nice Guy" moniker if you perform the obvious consequences. I'd add to worksforme2's suggestions, forge stronger bonds to your son. Go Carts, hikes, concerts, paintball. Whatever. The dishes can wait. In case of split, poisoning his mind gets tougher. Wishes you'd fight more? Once you have paperwork lined up, schedule the opening of the marriage. Now that's a fight. Make her defend her celibacy. Then any passive-aggressive starfish bullshit. Oh, the fights will be epic. Always with the manilla folder and a fresh Bic pen within arms reach under the mattress. I am making it a point to do more with my son, for example he really wanted to start skiing so I bought him skis and started teaching him. I haven't been skiing in 20 years because the wife didn't want to. Now I have something with just me and my son. I'll also take him to movies and hang out and watch the hockey games with him. I'm also teaching him to drive (he's 16). I did bring up the open marriage but that backfired. In my talks about sex I had brought up how important sex was for me to have the emotional connection and how interconnected that is. So she doesn't want me developing an emotional connection with someone else which is understandable. In follow up conversations she brought that up as something she's been worried about, me having an affair. I have not. We have another appointment with the counselor on Monday. I'm hoping to redirect the conversation back to sex. But I have no expectations at this point of changing her. It's been a couple of months now that she's been aware of how it important it is to me with me directly saying it. She may have been aware before but kept quiet. Since she has yet to make any effort at all to even kiss or do massages I'm pretty much done. She's made it clear that what I want is not important. |
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Post by jim44444 on Jan 31, 2024 11:17:14 GMT -5
She's made it clear that what I want is not important to her. (fixed it for you) |
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Post by isthisit on Jan 31, 2024 18:49:07 GMT -5
She's made it clear that what I want is not important. Mate, please reflect on your realisation here. It is not a marriage when your spouse does not care about what is important to you. It’s barely acquaintance. When you love someone, their happiness is as important to you as your own. As has been identified earlier today, we all only get one life, don’t waste any more of yours sharing it with someone who only cares about what you can give to her with no concern about what she can give to you. Ask anyone here who has done it, the idea of leaving is worse than the reality. Bumpy, certainly, but far from as bad as you think it will be. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 31, 2024 19:15:32 GMT -5
I am making it a point to do more with my son, for example he really wanted to start skiing so I bought him skis and started teaching him. I haven't been skiing in 20 years because the wife didn't want to. Now I have something with just me and my son. I'll also take him to movies and hang out and watch the hockey games with him. I'm also teaching him to drive (he's 16). I did bring up the open marriage but that backfired. In my talks about sex I had brought up how important sex was for me to have the emotional connection and how interconnected that is. So she doesn't want me developing an emotional connection with someone else which is understandable. In follow up conversations she brought that up as something she's been worried about, me having an affair. I have not. Awesome how complex your father-son time is. That's hardcore. Great stuff. The talk of an open marriage doesn't sound like backfiring to me at all. That sounds like she's handed you a cudgel. She recognizes you may catch feeling for your mistress. Um, yeah. That's a big part of the appeal; that another woman will want that adult heterosexual bonding experience that Mrs. m76 doesn't want. Great news! She doesn't have to have it! Your marriage can be more like one during Victorian days; a tool for child rearing and financial collaboration. That whole love/passion thing that we've developed since? Let some other distaff take that frivolous part of marriage off of her shoulders. She's taking the "good parts" already. The trash she has left behind on the table should be no concern of hers. What need has she for the crumbs and scraps once she has carried away the mutton and pudding? If she doesn't want the romantic/sensual/sexual sides of you, then she shouldn't have much say what you do with it, while she's left it neglected on the shelf. If your mistress grows to mean more to you than your wife, that should also be expected and in these marriages of convenience, it should not matter. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 31, 2024 21:33:25 GMT -5
I am making it a point to do more with my son, for example he really wanted to start skiing so I bought him skis and started teaching him. I haven't been skiing in 20 years because the wife didn't want to. Now I have something with just me and my son. I'll also take him to movies and hang out and watch the hockey games with him. I'm also teaching him to drive (he's 16). That's wonderful! Keep it up! Don't use him as a weapon against your "W". ( I'm afraid your "W" will) Tread lightly,and graciously, inform him slowly of the 'differences/problems' that you are going through with his mom. Not to benefit you,but to give him an open door to discuss these things with you! Have you considered taking him to speak with your Councillor? It would help the family a lot more than taking the wife! (voice of experience) QuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by greatcoastal on Dec 16, 2023 at 7:47am m76 Avatar Dec 15, 2023 at 10:19pm m76 said: northstarmom Avatar Dec 15, 2023 at 8:16pm northstarmom said: m76 I hope you're taking your son with you or at least offering him that option. He's definitely old enough to make that decision. Mmmm... maybe not? (said with respect and reference to my own mistakes!) How many years have you ( a grown man/adult) been fooled, manipulated, coerced, given in, to your wife? He was raised that way. Do you think your W will take that same approach, about who he lives with? Who gets to influence him? Sadly ,far too many parents ( women) use the children as a weapon against the man in a divorce.
I would advise you to start showing your son how capable you are NOW at giving him your side of the story, and furnishing him with more of your time and $$$.Kids today ( in this terrible economy) are graduating college with masters degrees and are getting offered $16.00 an hr. jobs, so are still having to live with a parent. Does he have a steady girlfriend? Polls and stats show that by the year 2030, 45% of people under the age of 30 yrs.old will be sexless and dateless, as more and more young women want the top 10% and consider the other 90% as stepping down or settling - when they think they have thousands of men at their finger tips with a single swipe left or right! Here's what was going on with me and my teens back in 2018: QuoteEditlikePost OptionsPost by greatcoastal on Feb 22, 2018 at 10:40am I met with my attorney yesterday and we added the 30 day notice to an extra week for summer vacation. I mentioned how little we really do for holidays now that the kids are teens. How they are busy with work, and school. It's interesting how an attorney looks at things (knows things) versus what you and I would consider okay, or normal. For instance mothers and fathers day. I'd be just as happy to celebrate it late. It's not needed. My attorney said " You should not eliminate that. That makes you look really bad and heartless before a judge." She then went on to say "Birthdays and mothers day, if the teens don't want to go she really can't force them to. If they have school, work, homework,etc... it's not going to happen, but you need to leave it in there". I then asked, "what about my 17 yr. old, does he get to speak to the judge and have any say in who he want's to stay with?" my attorney said, " in reality if he wants to spend the night and not go to her house, there's not much she can do about it. Once the parenting plan is finally settled on, there isn't any reason for the teens to talk with the judge, that's the only reason they need to speak with the judge." That's going to be interesting to see how all of that plays out in the future. I ask myself " why even have a 'parenting plan' if it has no teeth?" One bright side is ,once the parenting plan is finally agreed upon that saves almost an entire day in court. 100% of the plan is what I ( and my attorney) proposed from the beginning. It's just CRAZY that it took my W. 5 attorneys, and 20 months later to come full circle! All this, just to break free. Just more re-enforcement of all the manipulation, and all the control that I tolerated. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Jan 31, 2024 22:09:04 GMT -5
She's made it clear that what I want is not important. Mate, please reflect on your realisation here. It is not a marriage when your spouse does not care about what is important to you. It’s barely acquaintance. When you love someone, their happiness is as important to you as your own. As has been identified earlier today, we all only get one life, don’t waste any more of yours sharing it with someone who only cares about what you can give to her with no concern about what she can give to you. Ask anyone here who has done it, the idea of leaving is worse than the reality. Bumpy, certainly, but far from as bad as you think it will be. I've talked to my sister about it. Other then this group she's the only person that knows everything. She's told me something very similar. "Life is too short to be unhappy." |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Jan 31, 2024 22:10:40 GMT -5
I am making it a point to do more with my son, for example he really wanted to start skiing so I bought him skis and started teaching him. I haven't been skiing in 20 years because the wife didn't want to. Now I have something with just me and my son. I'll also take him to movies and hang out and watch the hockey games with him. I'm also teaching him to drive (he's 16). I did bring up the open marriage but that backfired. In my talks about sex I had brought up how important sex was for me to have the emotional connection and how interconnected that is. So she doesn't want me developing an emotional connection with someone else which is understandable. In follow up conversations she brought that up as something she's been worried about, me having an affair. I have not. Awesome how complex your father-son time is. That's hardcore. Great stuff. The talk of an open marriage doesn't sound like backfiring to me at all. That sounds like she's handed you a cudgel. She recognizes you may catch feeling for your mistress. Um, yeah. That's a big part of the appeal; that another woman will want that adult heterosexual bonding experience that Mrs. m76 doesn't want. Great news! She doesn't have to have it! Your marriage can be more like one during Victorian days; a tool for child rearing and financial collaboration. That whole love/passion thing that we've developed since? Let some other distaff take that frivolous part of marriage off of her shoulders. She's taking the "good parts" already. The trash she has left behind on the table should be no concern of hers. What need has she for the crumbs and scraps once she has carried away the mutton and pudding? If she doesn't want the romantic/sensual/sexual sides of you, then she shouldn't have much say what you do with it, while she's left it neglected on the shelf. If your mistress grows to mean more to you than your wife, that should also be expected and in these marriages of convenience, it should not matter. I get it and I wouldn't feel guilty at all if I had woman that was interested in me that way. But I'm not going to go out of my way to create more drama and ammo to be used against me. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 4, 2024 11:20:55 GMT -5
Minor update, is this breadcrumbing?
So I had a really rough week last week when my Sunday morning started with me asking my wife for a hug and she said she had a headache. We didn't really see each other all week since she was in the office and I was out most evenings.
Friday night laying in bed I asked her if she would just hold me. She initially said no but after a couple of minutes laying in bed she did end up holding me for a few minutes. That was more contact that I've had in over a year and it felt good but is this it?
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Post by DryCreek on Feb 4, 2024 11:46:55 GMT -5
Friday night laying in bed I asked her if she would just hold me. She initially said no but after a couple of minutes laying in bed she did end up holding me for a few minutes. She’s struggling to achieve the bar when it’s lying on the ground… I’m not sure that’s breadcrumbing so much as someone trying to overcome a combination of selfishness and indifference. That her default reaction was ‘No’ to such a simple request says something about where her head is at, even if she is trying to change. I guess the positive note is that she seems to be trying to change behavior. On the other hand, her threshold is so low that you have a very long road ahead - “success” in her book is not likely to match your hopes. DC |
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 5, 2024 4:32:32 GMT -5
Minor update, is this breadcrumbing? OMG yes. I've had the notion to do a * REFUSED* podcast about dating versus marriage. A common rule of thumb is if some passion isn't happening by the third date, the chemistry isn't there. I'd be suggesting refused spouses take their refusers on three terrific dates, and see if there's notable improvement by the end of night 3. Don't ask, don't hint. It's okay to look for signs, but they need to be clear. Reacting to something that wasn't a hint pooches the whole idea. When nothing does happen, you're being treated less well than a stranger he/she would have met on Tinder. A stranger that goes on three dates and expects a fourth with no gesture of affection? That's a foodie call. A gold digger. A self serving user. If that person is married to you, though, society says "tough luck". Me? I'm not so sure. It takes the whole bacon-scented candle thing and harnesses it as a tool of clarity. After three dates does she hug you unbidden? It's still not worth keeping monogamous with her, but the hug would be a ton better. In either case, stop asking for gestures of affection. They are a burden to her and you, yourself, become a burden to her. The distaste becomes visceral. It's no longer what you do, it's what you are. In the event you stop torturing yourself, some refusers grow nervous and look inward for teh trouble. It may not won't fix anything, but it helps them in their next relationship, and that's a kindness you can do her. Don't neglect your next man, honey. You eff'd this one up bad. Or, 1000:1 odds against, my plans will totally misfire and she'll recognize she's the problem. If you hold your breath, take a selfie and post it. |
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m76
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Post by m76 on Feb 5, 2024 6:57:12 GMT -5
Minor update, is this breadcrumbing? OMG yes. I've had the notion to do a * REFUSED* podcast about dating versus marriage. A common rule of thumb is if some passion isn't happening by the third date, the chemistry isn't there. I'd be suggesting refused spouses take their refusers on three terrific dates, and see if there's notable improvement by the end of night 3. Don't ask, don't hint. It's okay to look for signs, but they need to be clear. Reacting to something that wasn't a hint pooches the whole idea. When nothing does happen, you're being treated less well than a stranger he/she would have met on Tinder. A stranger that goes on three dates and expects a fourth with no gesture of affection? That's a foodie call. A gold digger. A self serving user. If that person is married to you, though, society says "tough luck". Me? I'm not so sure. It takes the whole bacon-scented candle thing and harnesses it as a tool of clarity. After three dates does she hug you unbidden? It's still not worth keeping monogamous with her, but the hug would be a ton better. In either case, stop asking for gestures of affection. They are a burden to her and you, yourself, become a burden to her. The distaste becomes visceral. It's no longer what you do, it's what you are. In the event you stop torturing yourself, some refusers grow nervous and look inward for teh trouble. It may not won't fix anything, but it helps them in their next relationship, and that's a kindness you can do her. Don't neglect your next man, honey. You eff'd this one up bad. Or, 1000:1 odds against, my plans will totally misfire and she'll recognize she's the problem. If you hold your breath, take a selfie and post it. We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc. Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted huged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away. It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house. |
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Post by toughtiger on Feb 5, 2024 8:26:24 GMT -5
"We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc.
Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted huged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away.
It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house." said M76
It is so frustrating they play this game when they KNOW we are ready to leave they play some hugs or some thing to try to give someone any hope then iF you turn towards that they go right back to refuser stance.
Makes me more angry then just going along with the status quo.
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Post by aquacat on Feb 5, 2024 15:48:33 GMT -5
"We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc. Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted huged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away. It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house." said M76 It is so frustrating they play this game when they KNOW we are ready to leave they play some hugs or some thing to try to give someone any hope then iF you turn towards that they go right back to refuser stance. Makes me more angry then just going along with the status quo. Same here. She will occasionally give me a hug when laying in bed and if I turn to kiss her she does the same think m76's wife does. The few times I've tried kissing her she does the "if you want to do anything you know you have to go close the door". I hate that. Why can't she do it or why can't she initiate?? |
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 5, 2024 19:54:12 GMT -5
We've gone on many romantic dates and there's never gestures of affection after other then her wanting to hold my hand while we're out walking. This weekend we did go out for a nice day of walking around downtown, had lunch, etc. Last night in bed I ended up frustrated again. She unprompted hugged me from behind, I turned to face her so I could kiss her and she turned her head away. It's becoming more clear she wants a friend and not a romantic partner. Yes I know it's been clear for a while, I'm still trying to make things tolerable while I still live in the same house. Hm. Maybe key is letting her initiate her inadequate gestures without reciprocation. She keeps thinking you're going to up the ante? If her hands came around your back to your stomach or ribs, perhaps a single stroke of the back of her hand. Over before it's begun, then nothing. An acknowledgement; a gesture of approval. Receive any affection she offers, offer less in return. She kisses you, squeeze her shoulder then turn away. She gooses your tush, you wink and duck out. She gives you a BJ, you give her a foot rub. She's already calling the shots, so let her. Disarm and stay on target keeping close ties with the kid. Cultivate a social circle to take up spare time when she's no longer going to be a major part of it. I'd think that could maintain the pleasant home, as unfair as it is. Enough romance to offer respect and acceptance, but not passion. Intellectualizing the exchange that is supposed to come naturally. Providing affection from the cerebrum, not the heart. It's choreography, not a dance. If she wants your heart back, she can ask. |
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