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Post by saarinista on May 23, 2020 11:07:54 GMT -5
Church friends talking about sex? I dunno about that one. Usually churches are just sex negative.
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Post by worksforme2 on May 23, 2020 11:24:05 GMT -5
Hhmmmmm,....This is a new approach I think. Asking a friend(s) to accompany you when speaking to your W about the sexless issue in the marriage. I never though of it because I didn't want to embarrass my X. And I couldn't ask any of her sorority friends because they propped her up on the issue of being done with sex at our age. So it wasn't an option even if I had thought of it. Her daughter also had an extended sexless period but that was brought on by a sorry husband who would not keep a job if it didn't "challenge" him. Actually, it's a couple of millenia old: If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
~ Matt. 18:15.17 You got me on a this one. I guess my 1st sentence should have read : This is an approach I don't think I have seen used here on this site.
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Post by csl on May 23, 2020 22:55:21 GMT -5
Church friends talking about sex? I dunno about that one. Usually churches are just sex negative. You're only right. Hence the Bad Teachings articles on my blog. Plus the addition of some great marriage and sexuality bloggers like the Byerlys, the ladies at Sex Chat 4 Christian wives and Knowing Her Sexually. And that's just the few I know of within my small bubble. (Did I mention that I am kinda hermit-like along with being curmudgeonly?) Oh, and that doesn't include the 70-80 folks who make up the Christian & Marriage Bloggers Association. They allowed me to join, despite my Groucho-like attitude: "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." I overcame my convictions, though.
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Post by worksforme2 on May 24, 2020 6:22:17 GMT -5
Church friends talking about sex? I dunno about that one. Usually churches are just sex negative. I don't know that churches are "just sex negative". I think mostly in the Christian faith there is more of a code of conduct expected from it's members when it comes to sex. I don't recall ever hearing a sermon or reading a denominations dogma which stated that sex was bad and to be avoided. There are generally expectations about acceptable behaviors and numerous examples of what is unacceptable from the church's viewpoint. I suppose one could view the church's prohibitions of certain behaviors or practices as negative but I think just stating that "usually churches are just sex negative" is a bit too broad a statement.
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Post by saarinista on May 24, 2020 15:21:09 GMT -5
True, worksforme2. That statement was overly broad. Yours is much more nuanced and correct. However, many churches encourage codes of conduct which in my opinion lead to ongoing misery and sexlessness. That is unfortunate to me. But I'm not a fan of just doing whatever, either. There is a middle ground, but IME many churches miss it.
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Post by ironhamster on May 24, 2020 20:08:55 GMT -5
True, worksforme2. That statement was overly broad. Yours is much more nuanced and correct. However, many churches encourage codes of conduct which in my opinion lead to ongoing misery and sexlessness. That is unfortunate to me. But I'm not a fan of just doing whatever, either. There is a middle ground, but IME many churches miss it. I know one woman whose Lutheran church has a sermon on sexual refusal every year. Luther was known to publicly embarrass and even excommunicate refusing wives, but, I don't know if he did the same with refusing husbands, and I am sure there were some. Sadly, it is too hot a topic for most ministers to approach. Given my experience on Christian marriage help sites, if a minister spoke of the sin of sexual refusal from the pulpit, his attendance and donations would suffer. csl is one of the few providing ammo to those that want to turn the church back the right way.
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Post by Handy on May 24, 2020 20:50:02 GMT -5
I attended a church several years ago where the several sermons were endorsing sexual activity in marriages. Sex everyday for a week or a month was one of the topics. Some members were into the sex everyday for a week-month and you could tell who those people were. The stoic people just sat there not moving or expressing much. Did the sermons do any good? I doubt they made any changes in the low drive members the sermons seemed to be ignored by the low drive folks. More/most sermons were about giving money and church projects that needed to be worked on.
The church had a "Divorce Care" program and a select few members were in the "Marriage Fire Fighters Brigade" helping to get members through tough marital times. I signed up for the Marriage fire fighters as a client. Most advice did not address the social interactions of the common marriage. The help was based on what the Bible said about marriage, which was of little help for me.
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Post by ironhamster on May 24, 2020 21:18:41 GMT -5
Handy, it's truly sad that the church at large cannot figure out how to stay relevant on a topic that will eventually destroy 20% of all marriages. Christian divorce rates are in line with the general population, so, for all the biblical advice given there is not much evidence that it is creating better marriages, or, at least, improving the bad ones.
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Post by saarinista on May 24, 2020 21:55:34 GMT -5
I'd like to see the church chill about divorce, where appropriate.
Honestly, not all marriages can or should be saved. Some people marry the wrong person and would be happier with another person. Sometimes people just grow apart.
Not every marriage can be fixed and I wish to God churches would stop acting like every marriage must to be saved or God will be pissed. That's just my view. Ideally, every marriage lasts forever. But we live in the real world.
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Post by saarinista on May 24, 2020 21:57:58 GMT -5
Alright, Luther! I grew up Lutheran (LCMS) and I always thought Luther was a bad ass. Way to go kicking those refuser women's butts! 😁😁
Granted, he was pretty antisemitic, but everyone's a mixed bag.
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Post by Handy on May 24, 2020 23:05:25 GMT -5
ironhamster, as a client in the Marriage Fire brigade, I was given a Bible and told what to read. To me it was more about following the church doctrine than fixing a marriage. I said I was given a Bible but I am not the type to accept gifts so I looked up what the Bible costs in a book store and made an in kind donation to the church. I even met with a "Fire Brigade" person weekly and that was more church doctrine than relationship help. One question on the intake form was "Do you practice self abuse?" which was actually do you masturbate? Right there I thought, no sex, no self relief, what kind of thinking does this group think real people think I should pattern myself after? Some saint in a theoretical type of design or an everyday going to work, raising a family man? Sorry, i am not a saint but a hard working man with a lot of common sense that strives to be an asset to the community. I didn't have the power to give and give without getting something in return. I am not Mother Teresa. I just wanted something fair. OTH, sometimes life isn't fair so the next thing is to deal with what is and make the best of it by learning new ways of living and adjusting to the new environment. This means learning new ways to try to make life better.
Saarinista Honestly, not all marriages can or should be saved. Some people marry the wrong person and would be happier with another person. Sometimes people just grow apart.
The growing apart fits my situation.
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Post by ironhamster on May 24, 2020 23:26:32 GMT -5
...One question on the intake form was "Do you practice self abuse?" which was actually do you masturbate? Right there I thought, no sex, no self relief, what kind of thinking does this group think real people think I should pattern myself after? Some saint in a theoretical type of design or an everyday going to work, raising a family man? Sorry, i am not a saint but a hard working man with a lot of common sense that strives to be an asset to the community. I didn't have the power to give and give without getting something in return. I am not Mother Teresa. I just wanted something fair... [/div][/quote] Well, some church leaders just seem to go out of their way to cast their organization into the fiery pit of eternal irrelevance, now, don't they? I hope every HL spouse in dispair sees this for what it is. It's right to be offended when some know-it-all busybody tries to put you into a box like that. Having the self confidence I lacked not many years ago, I'd like to take that box and shove it right up their ass.
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Post by ironhamster on May 24, 2020 23:29:34 GMT -5
I'd like to see the church chill about divorce, where appropriate. Honestly, not all marriages can or should be saved. Some people marry the wrong person and would be happier with another person. Sometimes people just grow apart. Not every marriage can be fixed and I wish to God churches would stop acting like every marriage must to be saved or God will be pissed. That's just my view. Ideally, every marriage lasts forever. But we live in the real world. ^^^^^ Preach, Sister, preach!!!
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Post by Apocrypha on May 25, 2020 0:24:51 GMT -5
That’s why I have called my wife up on it and assured her I’ll not live her lie any longer. If someone mentions my wife then I mention briefly that she is cold, we’re not close at the moment and that I am considering leaving her. I don’t make a big deal but I say it because that’s the truth. I don’t feel I deserve to be mistreated like this and not telling anybody is wrong. I want my wife to be a wife to me as she vowed and if my words don’t make any difference then I will come to her with a friend to speak and then if not two friends and if not again then a lawyer. You aren't close. That much is true. That she is cold? She might be to you, but that does not mean she is overall. I don't know that disparaging your wife to your friends, or involving them in criticizing her behavior is going to make you suddenly seem like a viable sexual partner to her. I think it's likely to embarrass her and deepen her humiliation and contempt. I don't think your friends will appreciate having to be drawn into it either - I think most would refuse being involved directly in your bedroom affairs. My point, above, was that both sides of this are in a celibate relationship that is not what they signed up for in marriage and doesn't constitute what they'd consider a marriage to be. It's not demonstrably different from an amicable ex-spouse co-parenting situation, with some shared assets, depending... Both sides "pretend" that they are in a marriage because not pretending risks jeopardizing many benefits associated with the marriage.
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Post by northstarmom on May 25, 2020 1:28:41 GMT -5
There’s a difference between not participating in fake public affectionate displays with one’s refuser and disparaging your mate to people who mention her. Doing the latter will make others think k you are a jerk. They also probably will be embarrassed at hearing intimacies about your marital problems and they may avoid you.
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