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Post by TMD on Nov 25, 2020 21:50:23 GMT -5
Definitely not feeling guilty. Conflicted? Lonely? Missing sex? All of the above. Not to mention the curveballs that come with Covid. It goes without saying that it’s tiresome. Sort of like everyday is ground hog day? I feel like a hamster on a wheel. You and me both! Hamster & Wheel. I live a strange ish lady. Tells me I ignore her and yet she’s married to her work and flops into bed and goes off to sleep. ive tried everything, she wants for nothing, and I expect that the issue, life has allowed her to work work work. but when she wants something on the sexy front she’s all over me like a cheap suit. its just a boring cycle now. And of course Covid is not helping anybody at all. anyway keep your chin up. I was thinking today that I think some people think they can control every aspect of their lives, the marriages, their partners. How silly is that? Do not your desires matter? I think I would be bored too, if I were beholden to my partner’s whims and they were not receptive to mine. Ah ha. I think mutual beholden-ess could be a clue to defining, “intimacy.” See post above.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 26, 2020 7:48:44 GMT -5
The conservative upbringing that had you thinking sexual desire was wrong is also telling you that you mustn't have an outside sex partner and you must divorce to be acceptable to others. You trust the people who misled you more than your gut. Your gut could be wrong too, but the track record of the people you're trying to please ain't great. If you divorced, would you see your affair partner again? Is frowning society your motive for keeping your distance? Is it preservation of your appearance as the faithful wife? (for society's sake? For your husband? Kids? Your own self-confidence when the facade is intact?) Have you considered the value and impact society's expectations have had on you and have you internalized them by choice? Or has it been society's expectation for you to conform that leads you to make decisions, moreso than a deliberate plan of what works best for your specific situation? I have read people that truly need to have physical intimacy with a spouse. It must be an all-in-one package. You may well be in that category. Just asking so you ask yourself. Do you feel that way, or do others think that-and only for that reason you think you should too? ...I reject my conservative upbringing.... I grew up with a sort of moral superiority, or stubbornness. I wanted to avoid divorce... I have no desire to save this marriage. It’s finances that are stalling things right now. If divorced, would I see AP again? ... I am so very tempted. But I need to have boundaries with him. He is terribly convincing. I don’t know that I can immerse myself in him at this time.... I want to work on myself (and a move towards separation) right now. Nope, not worried about societal judgments. My mom? Hell yes. My kids? Definitely. But every body else can go suck lemons. ;-) *** Having had incredible intimacy... I don’t think I knew what intimacy was until I experienced it with AP... Isn’t intimacy the reason we are all here? Intimacy isn’t just sex. Maybe it’s the core of mutual respect and attraction? ^^ I starred this section because I think it’s a good discussion, should anybody else wish to weigh in. There might be associated questions: - what constitutes intimacy? - how do you know when you have it? *** I appreciate your questions, mirrororchid . Interesting that you fear your passion will disallow focus on separation. Intimacy is an "all in" condition with you, then? I identify. My fantasies of a polyamorous condition are in conflict with my past of giving my all to my chosen monogamous partners. I do not actually advocate polyamory, so much as introduce its possibility. I'd be hypocritical to do more. I do not know if I'm capable of it, so I might fail to practice anything I preached. Despite sharing a girlfriend with another gent nearly thirty years ago and finding the triad very promising, its quick dissolution may indicate either rookie mistakes or an inherent incompatibility. I do mean to find out which, should my wife leave me by law or an act of nature. When physical relationships develop, the cliché is that couples will hold hands, hug, kiss, touch each other, and escalate to sexual activity. The physical progress of a relationship may be entirely independent of emotional intimacy Physically, it is the general societal view that sex is the most intimate one may be. (some casual sex practitioners refuse to kiss because it is seen as more intimate than sex, so I acknowledge the limits of the generalization.) To begin a course of celibacy is to reduce intimacy, physically. What causes this physical intimacy demotion? It may be very complex involving issues of trust, personal history, lack of communication, a misunderstanding of the phase of infatuation, or a hundred other sources of lengthy bouts of "why chasing". Then again, it can be pretty simple. The refuser never wanted it in the first place and has resumed their preference just as soon as they got the permanent jewelry. (This simple reason admittedly may originate from a combination of the listed complexities) Emotional intimacy may or may not be something a refuser craves. They may just be after the ring so they can tick off a box on their bucket list or what they think their life should be, as determined by society, their own earnest, well-examined desires, or internalized societal demands mistaken for their own desires. As the cliché is that emotional intimacy rises with physical, a decline in physical intimacy may produce the appearance of a decline in emotional intimacy. This decline may be unnecessary. It may be inaccurate. It may be deliberate. It may also be that some refusers find greater emotional intimacy in the reduction of physical intimacy. To a degree, that has poetic appeal. If devotion to one's spouse overcomes an absence of sexual activity, what does that say about the bond between two spouses? Some religious tenets condemning carnal activity as a useful method by which to procreate and otherwise a waste of time at best and a hindrance to self-actualization otherwise could feed this goal of overcoming the definitive, preliminary step of consummation. The highest intimacy of a bonding of souls, exclusive of bodies, may bring about a level of intimacy craved by those with a deep spiritual nature. The celibate marriage may even be a lofty, admirable goal of theirs. The celibacy is evidence of a successful marriage that has evolved to its highest state leaving corporal bodies behind. Entreaties to return to an animalistic interaction would sully such a partnership akin to that shared by angels and may instill repugnance and contempt. Desire to return to a physical joining of bodies may be a betrayal of the higher intimacy sought by a refuser. Persistent attempts to damage the superior relationship achieved can be seen as a personal rejection of priorities and perhaps an entire philosophical outlook deeply held. The attempt to reduce the marriage back to a physical one will damage the evolved marriage emotionally. The effort itself to reintroduce sex may be seen as counterproductive towards the goal of overcoming this mortal existence.
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Post by TMD on Mar 21, 2021 0:19:27 GMT -5
Little update:
The person-I-am-legally-married-to (PIALMT - new acronym, LOL) and I were watching the news earlier in 2021. A lifestyle segment interviewed a couple who met in their retirement home. According to the woman, he came up and put his arm around her, and she really liked it. So they began dating.
I joked, and said, “Gee, you should take notes.”
Immediately realizing with horror that he might think that I meant it in reference to me.
So I clarified and pivoted (impressively quickly, I might add), and said, “for when you start dating again.”
Then I asked if he ever thought of dating. I told him that I often feel quite lonely and had been thinking about it recently. He’s not comfortable with these convos... ever. But I kept going even though he looked frozen in fear, and told him that I wasn’t asking for permission, but seeking an understanding. To which he appeared to be in agreement. I say this because he mumbles a lot and it seemed more positive, than opposed. Plus, he had questions.
He wondered as to the logistics (for some reason he thought he could bring a date to our family home?). I clarified that discretion would be critical because of the kids, and that going out for coffee or a movie (when things return to normal), might be nice. And definitely not bringing a date to our home. We chatted about a few other things related to this. As in, go out, if inclined, but not necessary to disclose (I really have zero desire to hear about it from him, and I can’t imagine a reason why I would share with him if I went out with somebody).
Then our teen returned home from a walk with the dog.
And I ended up sitting there, shocked by how easy it was. It wasn’t confrontational, but rather simply an open, honest conversation.
Fast forward several weeks later... I met a guy with whom I could be upfront about my situation. And who, also, experienced a sexless marriage. He gets it. And isn’t fussed that I live with PIALMT (reminder: we haven’t slept in same room for 6-7 years).
We’ve gone out a few times. He’s a lot of the things I like in a man. And who knows what will happen.
Yes, I still want to sort out a formal separation, I’m very ready to not live with PIALMT.
And, yes, I very clearly know the pitfalls of not doing more to change my current situation (reference to former affair that held me in place with no progress).
The good thing? I have made progress. There has been change — in that I am becoming fearless when it comes to saying things that are important to me. The PIALMT and I are having more convos related to not staying married. We are 100% agreement on that.
AND, I can date. I’m not sneaking around. It’s not illicit. It’s human. And it feels good.
There’s more. There’s Covid. And PIALMT’s work situation (normally travels). Later 2021 will likely be transitional re: my work/career. Once I have more security in that respect (I’m in a temp role ATM), I can make plans for either bird-nesting or selling communal home altogether. Who knows? 🤷🏼♀️ I will need to have more input from PIALMT. I really don’t want to have to do most of the work towards separation/divorce, but it’s likely it will fall in me. After all, PIALMT doesn’t even know how to send an etransfer. And, trust me, I have expressed to him that he’s capable.
I’m simply sharing. Maybe there’s also a moral to the story: talking about hard things isn’t so hard? Crazy 💡moment.! Go figure. And a rhetorical question, LOL: How did it take me half a century to figure that out?!
Sweet dreams, all.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 22, 2021 4:15:30 GMT -5
person-I-am-legally-married-to (PIALMT - new acronym, LOL) and I were watching ...a couple who met in their retirement home.... he came up and put his arm around her, and she really liked it. So they began dating. I joked, and said, “Gee, you should take notes...for when you start dating again.” Then I asked if he ever thought of dating... and told him that I wasn’t asking for permission,... I can’t imagine a reason why I would share with him if I went out with somebody). ...And I ended up sitting there, shocked by how easy it was. It wasn’t confrontational, but rather simply an open, honest conversation. ...several weeks later... I met a guy with whom I could be upfront about my situation. ...He’s a lot of the things I like in a man. And who knows what will happen. Yes, I still want to sort out a formal separation, I’m very ready to not live with PIALMT. And, yes, I very clearly know the pitfalls of not doing more to change my current situation (reference to former affair that held me in place with no progress). ...I am becoming fearless when it comes to saying things that are important to me. The PIALMT and I are having more convos related to not staying married...AND, I can date. I’m not sneaking around. It’s not illicit. It’s human. And it feels good. .... Maybe there’s also a moral to the story: talking about hard things isn’t so hard? ...How did it take me half a century to figure that out?! Major congrats for your prison breakout. How'd you meet your fella? “Gee, you should take notes...for when you start dating again.”
For the sake of womankind, be sure to scribble in those notes at some point. "Leave the 'forsaking all others' part out of your next wife's wedding vows."Some poly couples aren't just willing to hear about their partners dates, but get a thrill out of knowing about their partners NRE (New Relationship Energy, not a new acronym, a very established one). Some get aroused by hearing about it. Different strokes, of course. If your husband sees you mooning over your date, (you may think you're hiding it well) he may be so happy for you that he's inclined to ask. Maybe NOHB, but it could happen. Maybe you'd indulge.
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Post by lessingham on Mar 27, 2021 4:18:30 GMT -5
Like the Hotel California, we can check in but never leave. Been a while but hi there. Things have been tough but weird. Sex desert over Christmas, no surprises there but she made an effort on Valentine's Night and we made love. Been three times so far this year. Old sexless marriage habit of remembering to note the times. So, if this continues we are out of the official definition of sexless. Once a month is 12 times and 2 above the 10 times definition. Things are still bad, but a glimmer of hope perhaps. Maybe we'll pass the Woody Allen definition of sexless, "getting less than the other guy"!!!!!
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Post by jerri on Mar 27, 2021 23:40:00 GMT -5
Like the Hotel California, we can check in but never leave. Been a while but hi there. Things have been tough but weird. Sex desert over Christmas, no surprises there but she made an effort on Valentine's Night and we made love. Been three times so far this year. Old sexless marriage habit of remembering to note the times. So, if this continues we are out of the official definition of sexless. Once a month is 12 times and 2 above the 10 times definition. Things are still bad, but a glimmer of hope perhaps. Maybe we'll pass the Woody Allen definition of sexless, "getting less than the other guy"!!!!! Not ideal, but certainly could get by with that! Congrats!
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 29, 2021 5:33:53 GMT -5
... Things have been tough but weird. Sex desert over Christmas, no surprises there but she made an effort on Valentine's Night and we made love. Been three times so far this year. Old sexless marriage habit of remembering to note the times. So, if this continues we are out of the official definition of sexless. Once a month is 12 times and 2 above the 10 times definition. Things are still bad, but a glimmer of hope perhaps. Maybe we'll pass the Woody Allen definition of sexless, "getting less than the other guy"!!!!! Amazing! Any idea what may have, moved the needle? I have a theory. It has to do with that American friend you had "emotional adultery" with.
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Post by lessingham on Mar 29, 2021 7:29:00 GMT -5
I last spoke to my friend about 2 years ago, so if that is the reason, it took a while. Myself, it still feels like an uphill struggle and still nights of too horny to sleep. But it is a three months snail pace in a right direction.
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Post by TMD on Mar 29, 2021 8:43:06 GMT -5
mirrororchid - met him on an app. Not tinder. I tend to ask a lot of questions. Became a bit of an inside joke, “the questionnaire.” And whether or not he passed muster. Despite appearances, I’m highly cautious and the questions dug fairly deeply in an effort to get a sense of his emotional intelligence/ability to dig into the hard stuff that comes up in rel’ships. I’m not sure where Poly comes in. I don’t have an intimate rel’ship with PIALMT. We are well past the point of no return.
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Post by TMD on Mar 29, 2021 8:49:47 GMT -5
Like the Hotel California, we can check in but never leave. Been a while but hi there. Things have been tough but weird. Sex desert over Christmas, no surprises there but she made an effort on Valentine's Night and we made love. Been three times so far this year. Old sexless marriage habit of remembering to note the times. So, if this continues we are out of the official definition of sexless. Once a month is 12 times and 2 above the 10 times definition. Things are still bad, but a glimmer of hope perhaps. Maybe we'll pass the Woody Allen definition of sexless, "getting less than the other guy"!!!!! Good to hear from you. I think — way back when, earlier in my marriage — I would have been happy with 1x a month. Better than the nothing that was. But no longer would that be enough for me. I desire intimacy that isn’t just the act of sex. I haven’t given up on leaving. As I talk more with PIALMT, we are forming more of a plan (we have some stuff to sort out re:house/living arrangements/parenting agreement ). Here’s hoping you get more than the other guy.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 30, 2021 4:35:50 GMT -5
mirrororchid - met him on an app. Not tinder. I tend to ask a lot of questions. Became a bit of an inside joke, “the questionnaire.” And whether or not he passed muster. Despite appearances, I’m highly cautious and the questions dug fairly deeply in an effort to get a sense of his emotional intelligence/ability to dig into the hard stuff that comes up in rel’ships. I’m not sure where Poly comes in. I don’t have an intimate rel’ship with PIALMT. We are well past the point of no return. Spouses can enjoy seeing each other happy. This applies to a promotion, winning a tennis match, or delighting in a dog that takes a shine to zer. While your relationship isn't intimate, perhaps your refuser would have to admit it's a happier household when basic human needs aren't being neglected. This may take the final step to being glad for you, since he's not been fulfilling this important role. Being glad your spouse is sexually fulfilled by another is usually a poly thing. In an SM, it can be platonically poly (economic, emotional, other), but sexually monogamous (not the spouse.) I overgeneralized in a confusing manner, 'tis true.
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Post by TMD on May 10, 2022 16:09:15 GMT -5
Over a year later, some progress has been made.
Both of the kids know a separation is in future. One knows that her dad and I have an agreement re: dating other people. In addition to fact that I’ve been dating one specific person for nearly 6 months. Will tell the younger one soon; she’s had some concerns and is in therapy. I’m aligning that convo to happen before a therapy session so she can puzzle it out with therapist if need be.
The wonderful man I’m dating? He was my boss. Years ago. Stumbled upon each other on a dating app. There was never any hint of attraction when we worked together. So meeting him for dinner, as a date, was beyond awkward. But so worth it. He is fully aware of my situation.
Oh. And then there’s a comical story about when I told the STBX about the man I’m dating. I wanted to be honest. It was hard for the STBX to hear (why on earth is he still holding on? It’s rhetorical. Don’t answer). I made the mistake of asking how dating is going for him. He said it wasn’t. He hasn’t really made an effort. And then I blurted out, “it’s going very well for me.” 🤣 Oops. I usually have better tact than that.
The STBX and I arrived at an agreement that is suitable to him. Much less suitable to me as I am beyond done and would much rather a true split. Even though he is in his early 50s, he does not want to be discomforted. So we will coshare house and arrange for a 2 bedroom apartment, also coshared. Once a parenting schedule is agreed upon, and a one year lease secured, we officially begin the dissolution of a too long marriage.
The pro? The kids don’t have to go back and forth.
But I’d much rather get my own place and have a fresh start. I need my own place because the STBX can’t bear to move out of the house (the one I chose) because that’s too much for him. Sigh.
I can no longer hold onto things that hold me back. Hence why I’m impatient to get the ball rolling. And not feeling sentimental about my home. Besides, what matters most to me is my girls. Our relationship can happen anywhere.
I learned recently that our financial situation is better than I knew. So he has the means to buy me out and even though I don’t have a great salary, I should be able to pay the bills. Whether or not he buys me out or we sell the house and split those proceeds? No matter to me. I have a reasonable exit either way.
My dad is dying; he is a province away and I’ve been going out as often as I can. I treasure the fact that my parents were young, and even though he’s only 72, I’ve had half a century with him in my life. I’m learning about grief. Don’t always embrace it. But am learning that fighting it does me no good either.
Work is stressful. I have Covid, again. Although, it’s been a rough few days, the symptoms are muted in comparison (what does that say about Covid? The first bout was hell.).
Until recently, I have over analyzed every step. Not necessarily a good strategy. Some thought and intent is good. However, staying stuck in a pattern is not. I started with a therapist last fall. It creates accountability. I needed that.
I have worried that I’ve harmed my kids. But their Mother’s Day card to me was reaffirming. They are great kids. I am lucky to have them in my life.
So that’s where I’m at today. If anybody were to ask if I have any regrets? It’s only that I didn’t divorce much sooner. Though the path hasn’t been straightforward, I really like the person I am today.
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Post by baza on May 10, 2022 19:59:31 GMT -5
Great to hear from you again Sister TMD . And to hear that the loose ends in your progress are slowly coming together for you. You've done well - very well. It's also interesting to see your quote - ".... I have any regrets? It’s only that I didn’t divorce much sooner" These words are very often seen in here from members who have gotten out of their ILIASM situations.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on May 11, 2022 11:01:26 GMT -5
Great to hear from you tmdAll I can say is, wow you seem to have got a lot done. Appreciate your post and update. Im learning and taking notes ;-)
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Post by sadkat on May 11, 2022 22:37:50 GMT -5
Thank you for the update tmd. I am sorry you are feeling unwell. My condolences regarding your dad. I lost mine 2 years ago- at the start of Covid. It is not easy. As they say, grief is not linear so please be patient with yourself. Good Luck with your exit plans!
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