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Post by paddlingalone on Dec 1, 2019 18:29:26 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. What piqued my interest was reading about how a sexless marriage is considered in the divorce process, and in most cases it's just covered under 'irreconcilable differences' but in some states a refusing spouse is committing 'constructive abandonment', and this doesn't apply for LL spouses who don't refuse. I just thought that subtle (legal) difference was interesting, and now second guessing whether I'm being too hard on my husband/expecting too much. Nevertheless, asking about sex from someone who's not interested turns me off too.
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Post by baza on Dec 1, 2019 19:07:35 GMT -5
It is often suggested in here that you see a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would shake out for you. I'd again suggest this course of action to you. That will establish exactly what applies in your jurisdiction, and what doesn't apply.
In my jurisdiction divorce law is "no fault". If your jurisdiction is no fault, then your sex life or lack thereof is of no significance. Likewise who initiates - or doesn't - or how often they do or don't initiate is likewise irrelevant. Under no fault, all the state is interested in is that both parties get an equitable split of the joint assets and that any minor kids interests are protected too. What your sex life was/is like is of no interest to the state at all. And "why" you want a divorce is again, not of any particular interest to the state.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Dec 1, 2019 20:49:30 GMT -5
In the vein of philosophical debate, there is an interesting difference, I would think. But have you asked him 'his take' on this? I was surprised to learn that in my (now Ex)husband's upbringing, it was considered a point of respect to allow the woman all the control of initiating. I think that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the development of my marriage going sexless, but I wonder if you were to discuss it with him, if this is somehow an "I don't want to be pushy" stance. However, given if you are in a true ILIASM shithole, then it is more likely to be sheer laziness. Still - I felt a good litmus test in my divorce decision-making was the very fact that we could not hold a reasonable discussion about sex or sexless topics at all. If communication is key, well we lost the key! I never did like the 'compliant starfish' sort of idea, though. So Baza's main point is true: it doesn't matter much the why behind a situation. What matters is whether you find a way to accept the current situation without resentment or take some other action. That is the real crux of the matter.
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Post by lostintime on Dec 1, 2019 21:20:44 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. What piqued my interest was reading about how a sexless marriage is considered in the divorce process, and in most cases it's just covered under 'irreconcilable differences' but in some states a refusing spouse is committing 'constructive abandonment', and this doesn't apply for LL spouses who don't refuse. I just thought that subtle (legal) difference was interesting, and now second guessing whether I'm being too hard on my husband/expecting too much. Nevertheless, asking about sex from someone who's not interested turns me off too. I have the same issue with my wife. First thing to do is talk to see your partner's perspective on sex. My wife says its hard for her start the process, kind of like running on a treadmill. Its hard for her to start running but once she actually starts running she likes it. My wife also says that she only wants sex once a week and would be OK with not having sex at all if I did not want sex. So I have to initiate all the time, sometimes she is tired but we do have sex 2-4 times a week. The issue is that it makes me feel unwanted and kinda depressing. I brought it up to her and she tries to initiate it but I can still feel that she does not want it. I am not sure if there is a way to fix it.
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Post by nyctos on Dec 1, 2019 22:08:17 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. What piqued my interest was reading about how a sexless marriage is considered in the divorce process, and in most cases it's just covered under 'irreconcilable differences' but in some states a refusing spouse is committing 'constructive abandonment', and this doesn't apply for LL spouses who don't refuse. I just thought that subtle (legal) difference was interesting, and now second guessing whether I'm being too hard on my husband/expecting too much. Nevertheless, asking about sex from someone who's not interested turns me off too. I'd say you're still in a sexless marriage. I went through this for years, where I could initiate but she never did, and sometimes she would accept. Other times (more often than not, eventually) she refused. I kept wondering if there were any period of drought that would encourage her to initiate -- would she initiate after 3 months? Six months? Maybe I just didn't wait long enough before initiating myself? How often does she actually want to have sex? I imagine you might have had some similar thoughts. Now she always refuses, and even preemptively refuses (so if I put a hand on her knee while watching TV, she removes it and tells me it's not happening, even though that's pretty obvious because it hasn't happened for years). Being refused and your spouse never initiating are kind of similar -- they feel just as bad. If I were refused half the time, but another half the time she initiated I don't think I'd be here. I'd consider my marriage relatively okay (though I'd probably still not be having sex quite as often as I liked, I'd at least just be able to chalk it up to differences in libido). I definitely understand how you wouldn't want to ask for sex from someone who's not interested. It's sometimes even worse if you actually accept it: basically it makes you feel even more distant from them, and cold inside. Once I realized my W was doing everything she could to avoid ever actually having sex, or even having the expectation of sex -- well, I only had sex with her once after that and it made me feel so awful and alone afterwards that I can't initiate.
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muzack
Junior Member
Posts: 75
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Post by muzack on Dec 8, 2019 8:05:19 GMT -5
I have the same issue with my wife. First thing to do is talk to see your partner's perspective on sex. My wife says its hard for her start the process, kind of like running on a treadmill. Its hard for her to start running but once she actually starts running she likes it. My wife also says that she only wants sex once a week and would be OK with not having sex at all if I did not want sex. So I have to initiate all the time, sometimes she is tired but we do have sex 2-4 times a week. The issue is that it makes me feel unwanted and kinda depressing. I brought it up to her and she tries to initiate it but I can still feel that she does not want it. I am not sure if there is a way to fix it. That is the exact running analogy my wife make. But we typically end up having sex 2-3 times a year. Because there are lots of reason out there justify getting on the treadmill tomorrow instead of today.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 8, 2019 11:51:14 GMT -5
You could ask him.
I suspect his libido is not real high. When you did manage to have sex, did he seem into it?
Given the social engineering stunts like what happened to the Duke Lacrosse team, I would not be surprised to know that many men take a more passive approach to sex.
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Post by ironhamster on Dec 8, 2019 22:05:06 GMT -5
If you ask a lawyer in your area, you can find out where you stand. Local laws vary greatly.
Illinois is a no fault state. Constructive abandonment never comes into play. I believe it was a couple in France where the refused sued for the damage done by her husband's sexlessness and won a substantial settlement.
It all depends on where you live.
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Post by csl on Dec 8, 2019 22:35:17 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. What piqued my interest was reading about how a sexless marriage is considered in the divorce process, and in most cases it's just covered under 'irreconcilable differences' but in some states a refusing spouse is committing 'constructive abandonment', and this doesn't apply for LL spouses who don't refuse. I just thought that subtle (legal) difference was interesting, and now second guessing whether I'm being too hard on my husband/expecting too much. Nevertheless, asking about sex from someone who's not interested turns me off too. If you can have sex whenever you want sex, you aren't in a sexless marriage. Yes, you are the higher drive spouse, and yes, it sucks to have to be the initiator all the time, given our cultural expectation that men should be the initiators. But that isn't sexless if you can and do have sex. What I do see is the need to get to counseling and seeing what issues may be behind behaviors. Give the boy readings on what it does to a person's soul to not feel desired; get his testosterone level checked; at a bare minimum, get to talking, and I don't mean a passing "Gee, it would be nice if you initiated once in a while." Sexlessness isn't the issue in your marriage, but your post shows that there are areas of concerns that need to be opened up and explored.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 9, 2019 10:06:37 GMT -5
I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. After a 13 year dysfunctional marriage that ended up virtually celibate, in which the ratio of my initiating/root was somewhere in the 100-300/1 area, I found myself in the second year of a really good relationship with a very attractive person. And a few months ago, she pointed out that she wishes I would initiate more than I presently do. Rather than getting into a labeling situation, we used this as an opportunity to share about our experiences and the effects. Obviously, I picked up a maladaptive habit that I have not completely shaken. It helped her to understand the context, and I also have stepped up to be a little braver, with positive results so far. I hope that the two of you are also able to step back and have a conversation that shares context.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 10, 2019 22:23:10 GMT -5
paddlingalone, I’ll offer another perspective... When you say “obliging”, you don’t say whether he’s an active, enthusiastic participant (a.k.a., reactive desire), or if he’s just there because he has to be; he’s obligated. I personally think there’s a big difference between “desire” and “tolerance”. If he just won’t initiate, but once you get going he’s all-in for fun and intimacy, then you’ve got a lot to work with. It’s probably a huge ego hit if he’s not inspired enough to start things, but it’s a workable starting point. However, if he will only have sex because you ask, and then with all the enthusiasm of changing a dirty diaper... I’d say you’re in the right place here. Just “ticking the box” doesn’t count in my book. Most of us here are looking for a lot more emotional involvement - sex is just the most measurable indicator.
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Post by lessingham on Dec 11, 2019 4:14:26 GMT -5
I once asked my wife why she never initiated. She said she could not bear the humiliation of being refused. I pointed out the years of her refusing me and asked about my humiliation. "That's different." she replied. And indeed, that is the difference
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Post by paddlingalone on Dec 11, 2019 22:54:12 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight. Oh, I would love to go to marital counseling. I asked for it in the past and he refused. His T levels were finally checked -- came back clinically low -- he now has the medicine on the bathroom counter and won't take it. Sigh.
The biggest obstacle actually is he doesn't want to discuss the problem! As long as the channels of communication are open, there's potential for progress. But when one spouse wants to talk and the other doesn't, what can you do? He bristles when I bring it up and silently waits for me to stop talking.
Occasionally he will initiate if it's been a while and he senses I'm upset about it (reset sex) but I don't want that...I want to be wanted. And honestly I'm at the point where if he initiates now, I'm going to say no, so we're at an impasse.
As to whether he's into it, I honestly don't know. There's often problems with performance and he rarely finishes, but whether that's the low T or lack of interest in intercourse, I don't know.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 12, 2019 1:40:38 GMT -5
paddlingalone, from what you describe, there is a big communication problem here, and it’s certainly fueling other issues. Pile on some ego and stubbornness, and who knows what’s really going on in his head. He has low testosterone, but isn’t taking the meds. He has ED problems that are surely hampering his performance, but instead of discussing it he withdraws. Even if he has desire for you, this issue alone is humiliating enough that he might avoid sex. It seems likely that he is embarrassed by the problem and chooses to stick his head in the sand instead of having a vulnerable conversation with you about it. His behavior in the face of a personal struggle / his lack of communication is what will really kill the marriage - having a problem that affects both of you, being unwilling to discuss (or even acknowledge) the elephant in the room (or even being defensive about it), and not taking action on a known issue for which he has the fix. If you can drag his butt to counseling, there’s hope that the counselor will breach the awkwardness and compel him to start talking and sharing. Only then will he realize that it’s a manageable problem, and if you’re presumably on-board, he has your support instead of your disappointment. Now, truthfully, it’s possible that he doesn’t desire you and that’s the root of his ED problems. Or vice versa. But either way, if he doesn’t talk to you, you’re left to fill in the blanks and make decisions on what you see happening. It’s in his interest to talk, regardless.
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Post by baza on Dec 12, 2019 3:29:13 GMT -5
You aren't going to be able to fix HIS low T or HIS ED or HIS aversion or HIS attitude Sister paddlingalone . HE fixes these things or they don't get fixed. Now, you "might" be able to coerce him into action in this direction. That would depend on just how hard you are prepared to apply the 4X2 to his cranium. If you are prepared to go the full distance, ie put the marriage on the line, then the coercion method "might" kick him into action. Then the question would be whether he is capable of making the desired turnaround. You would need to accept the very real probability that he ain't capable. One last thing .... this is not a scenario for bluff / bullshit. Only try the coercion strategy if you are prepared to put the marriage on the line.
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