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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 17, 2019 14:26:02 GMT -5
On a somewhat different topic, my wife never says "No" to sex. She typically says something like: "Let's do that later..." "Wait until this week-end..." "I'm to tired...." "I had such a long day...." She has a lot of other excuses, but stalling is her preferred tactic. When she promises sex the next week-end... It NEVER happens!!!! That's because her goal is to avoid sex with you. You are in the same marriage, after all. It's pretty easy to have sex with someone who you live with. People who have affairs manage to have sex with people who they don't live with, and with a lot at risk in their lives. Even avoiding sex with someone you live with and see as desirable is tough, when your own body has a libido irrespective of a partner. So it must be pretty important work to avoid sex with someone. It sounds like stalling - where the biggest consequence is a verbal fight, is a preferable outcome to having sex with someone she doesn't want to have sex with. Fighting about this isn't going to make her want to have sex with you (and her "wanting you" is the only thing that will achieve that result). Best case is you might get to an answer as to why she doesn't want it with you, which likely has something to do with how she sees you as a person or how she sees the marriage. And then you can decide how to play that ball from where it landed.
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Post by saarinista on Dec 21, 2019 20:04:58 GMT -5
Other factors people here may have in common:
1.We are more serious about marriage or at least more reluctant to leave our marriages, for whatever reason, than average people.
2.We have greater than average abilities to tolerate emotional/sexual deprivation. That, or we've been deprived for so long that we've forgotten what good feels like and hence are unmotivated to get out of our SMs to find something better.
3. We're unusually persistent and good at flogging dead marriages.
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Post by Handy on Dec 21, 2019 22:59:22 GMT -5
I am adding to saarinista list, we/I don't put our-self at the head of any lists. We take care of others and live on what is left over. Not all of the time but too often because of some of saarinista's reasons listed above.
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bklyndad1
New Member
Posts: 3
Age Range: 41-45
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Post by bklyndad1 on Dec 23, 2019 11:22:18 GMT -5
paddlingalone: getting maintenance sex most of the time when you ask for it is: 1. Way better of a situation than a lot of people are in, including me. Hearing a hard no for years at a time is a lot worse, yet we put up with it. 2. Still not what you signed on for. 3. Relatively easy to fix if you are a woman who likes sex on the dating market.
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Post by paddlingalone on Dec 26, 2019 14:15:16 GMT -5
Yeah, personally I'm not ok with duty sex, though I know perspectives may vary on that. I don't want it with someone who is indifferent and could completely do without if not asked. I don't want my spouse to be a sex toy, I want an enthusiastic participant. So I prefer to go without.
I do think it still counts as a sexless marriage, since nothing sexual is happening. It's just dysfunctional for a different reason.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 26, 2019 18:38:03 GMT -5
Other factors people here may have in common: 1.We are more serious about marriage or at least more reluctant to leave our marriages, for whatever reason, than average people. 2.We have greater than average abilities to tolerate emotional/sexual deprivation. That, or we've been deprived for so long that we've forgotten what good feels like and hence are unmotivated to get out of our SMs to find something better. 3. We're unusually persistent and good at flogging dead marriages. Don't be too sure of that. Compare against your averse partner, who is also in a sexually unsatisfying marriage, and who - if they aren't having an affair yet - have chosen the path of celibacy rather than having sex with someone they don't see as a sexual partner. AND they don't bring it up. If your intimacy averse partner is remaining celibate, they are also in a celibate and sexually unsatisfying marriage.
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Post by worksforme2 on Dec 26, 2019 19:29:41 GMT -5
Other factors people here may have in common: 1.We are more serious about marriage or at least more reluctant to leave our marriages, for whatever reason, than average people. 2.We have greater than average abilities to tolerate emotional/sexual deprivation. That, or we've been deprived for so long that we've forgotten what good feels like and hence are unmotivated to get out of our SMs to find something better. 3. We're unusually persistent and good at flogging dead marriages. Don't be too sure of that. Compare against your averse partner, who is also in a sexually unsatisfying marriage, and who - if they aren't having an affair yet - have chosen the path of celibacy rather than having sex with someone they don't see as a sexual partner. AND they don't bring it up. If your intimacy averse partner is remaining celibate, they are also in a celibate and sexually unsatisfying marriage. Don't be too sure about that.... Perhaps a state of celibacy is a perfectly acceptable and satisfying arrangement in a marriage from their perspective. My X has said on any # of occasions that she never thinks of sex and that if she never had to have sex again that would be just fine with her. I have heard that from other members here regarding the attitude of their spouses concerning sex. So while I don't disagree that given the right set of circumstances and the right prospect as to a mating partner then perhaps that attitude might change. Then again it might not.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 26, 2019 20:32:29 GMT -5
Other factors people here may have in common: 1.We are more serious about marriage or at least more reluctant to leave our marriages, for whatever reason, than average people. 2.We have greater than average abilities to tolerate emotional/sexual deprivation. That, or we've been deprived for so long that we've forgotten what good feels like and hence are unmotivated to get out of our SMs to find something better. 3. We're unusually persistent and good at flogging dead marriages. And, sadly there is the pitty game. How they are victims of their illness and how others should be okay with their lies, manipulations,and life damaging games!! (A one way street paved with double standards)
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Post by Handy on Dec 26, 2019 22:15:27 GMT -5
Once my W said sex 4 times a year was her ideal sexual relationship frequency.
It is difficult to change the other spouse's desire and what they think is good-ideal.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 27, 2019 5:24:10 GMT -5
Once my W said sex 4 times a year was her ideal sexual relationship frequency.
It is difficult to change the other spouse's desire and what they think is good-ideal.
That'd totally work. She just needs to marry a Mormon with about 24 wives just like her.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 27, 2019 17:02:04 GMT -5
Don't be too sure of that. Compare against your averse partner, who is also in a sexually unsatisfying marriage, and who - if they aren't having an affair yet - have chosen the path of celibacy rather than having sex with someone they don't see as a sexual partner. AND they don't bring it up. If your intimacy averse partner is remaining celibate, they are also in a celibate and sexually unsatisfying marriage. Don't be too sure about that.... Perhaps a state of celibacy is a perfectly acceptable and satisfying arrangement in a marriage from their perspective. My X has said on any # of occasions that she never thinks of sex and that if she never had to have sex again that would be just fine with her. I have heard that from other members here regarding the attitude of their spouses concerning sex. So while I don't disagree that given the right set of circumstances and the right prospect as to a mating partner then perhaps that attitude might change. Then again it might not. I haven't said I'm sure of anything - to be clear. My statement was countering the original rush to pat ourselves on our back by claiming the moral and sexually-realized high ground in analyzing who gets the blame in a celibate, dysfunctional deal. What people say and even believe when they are inside a celibate marriage vs what they do when that celibate marriage is over, seems to often be quite different. I've been dating for - what? - 4-5 years in the singles/post-sep world in a metropolitan city. A recurring theme is that women who seem quite passionate in their present context with me, often went through a lengthy "cold fish" period in which they felt they were dead weight in the bedroom. My own ex would be included among these - and she seems to have gone on to make a decided and immediate effort to get cracking on the sex thing right away (and actually prematurely as well). Even when she had two concurrent boyfriends, she was still somehow sticking to the narrative that she's a cold fish in bed - meanwhile... And the moment the separation was decided, she got busy on it. So, it's not that I'm trying to slyly congratulate myself on my romantic prowess or technique here. So based on my experience - and mileage may vary - with my own marriage and being the new guy in the life of - let's say "several" post separation women who thought they didn't like sex... I'd say it's more likely that most people are blaming low sex drive spouses for threatening marriages and patting themselves for sticking through, when in the marital epitaph, the surprise ending so often seems to be that they just didn't see their spouse as a sexual partner anymore. I think it's important to hold this bit of self-skepticism and to point this out here because if/when the divorce happens, it can be a way to find some forgiveness - so that we can move forward with our lives more freely, and not mired in hate and self-congratulation. I'm not sure what that serves in most cases.
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Post by Handy on Dec 27, 2019 22:33:34 GMT -5
Apocrypha , I think your experiences with a former wife and some new female relations sheds a good spotlight on sexless marriages. It seems your encounters and experiences say both people suffer from the sexless-ness and feeling alone, although not all and some are OK with less sex but still want to be sought out and revered without giving what the other spouse wants. I but your idea when in the marital epitaph, the surprise ending so often seems to be that they just didn't see their spouse as a sexual partner anymore. sounds accurate, for the most part.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 29, 2019 11:44:07 GMT -5
Apocrypha , I think your experiences with a former wife and some new female relations sheds a good spotlight on sexless marriages. It seems your encounters and experiences say both people suffer from the sexless-ness and feeling alone, although not all and some are OK with less sex but still want to be sought out and revered without giving what the other spouse wants. I but your idea when in the marital epitaph, the surprise ending so often seems to be that they just didn't see their spouse as a sexual partner anymore. sounds accurate, for the most part. Yes, I have to say it was a 2x4 across my head when Mrs. Apocrypha, in a rare moment of alignment of deed to words, said, "Let's acknowledge that I also have been in a sexually dissatisfying relationship." Expanding on that - it wasn't a question of technique or physical attractiveness, or the amount I was investing in the marriage or in her. It was that she was in a marriage to someone she either a) a didn't want to be a partner to in that way b) didn't want to be in a marriage at all (which arrives at the same place as "a" as far as my involvement goes) It's funny, even though she said it as plainly as that - and it reads plainly here - I still didn't quite hear it. Not the way I do now, and they way I imagine everyone reading it now reads it. It seemed like a fixable thing.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 31, 2019 20:04:32 GMT -5
Yes, I have to say it was a 2x4 across my head when Mrs. Apocrypha, in a rare moment of alignment of deed to words, said, "Let's acknowledge that I also have been in a sexually dissatisfying relationship." I just bet it was! Any chance you'd share what happened next? To acknowledge "I'm miserable, but my plan is to keep it like this."? It boggles the mind.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 6, 2020 12:05:28 GMT -5
I just bet it was! Any chance you'd share what happened next? To acknowledge "I'm miserable, but my plan is to keep it like this."? It boggles the mind. To be blazingly honest, she was attempting to explain her affair, amid the years of celibacy. So she was walking a path similar to many here. It eventually informed my choices. Initially, I heard it as "I need to adapt the person I am to be the partner she wants to be." I am relentlessly self-skeptical and quite open minded. I interpreted her (partly correctly) as a free-spirited artsy type, experimental, needing variety, and needing someone who is more transparent emotionally. For the latter, I took the example of several men in my life who fit that criteria and spent more time sharing my emotional and vulnerable states. That's part of who I am now, or of what I choose to show the world. For the former, once I was ready to give up on the "old marriage" and divorce, I eventually agreed to try an open relationship and see how that would work - redefining for ourselves the terms of our agreement and establishing new rules and a new way of relating. That chapter did not unfold according to our agreed standard, even with generous grace for adapting and learning applied. I had found that in relationship 2.0, the heavy lifting of observing and doing self-work to accommodate the obvious difficulties associated with such a drastic change was all me, and, as in marriage, her behaviour was decidedly incompatible with any demonstration of an invested relationship in me --even with very simple things. I came to a place where it seemed impossible to compromise any farther and still maintain the fiction that she wanted to be there with me. There was no uncertainty left and I had no ability left to lie to myself about what it was. I ended that and that format of our relationship. It does, in hindsight, but my reason for sharing that anecdote was to indicate that it isn't really different in a meaningful way from the knowing situation tolerated by the neglected lover in a dead bedroom relationship. Both are miserable. Both are partners in a sexually dissatisfying relationship, tethered to a partner who is not a viable a sexual partner (either because they don't want sex with you, or because their partner is someone they don't want sex with). Both are caught in a dilemma - choosing between a household, friends, family and all the associated significant benefits of marriage, including simply the avoidance of the costs of splitting VS. having all of those benefits hinge on the tolerance of a person who doesn't see you as a romantic partner. Both are making the same effective choice in the dilemma - to stick with a partner whose unsuitability makes them unhappy and unsatisfied. So it's not so boggling. Every person on this board does it all the time, or has done it.
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