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Post by ScottDinTN on Dec 12, 2019 6:16:44 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. It is best when both initiate. But, if my wife really enjoyed sex and responded with passion when I initiated, I could live with that. I'm sure there are some that just naturally don't think about sex and they just need you to introduce the idea to awaken it in them. There are also some that are very sub in their nature and want a dom to take charge before they are turned on. I wouldn't consider a lack of initiation a sexless marriage as long as after it is initiated their was passion and desire. I think communication and maybe counseling could deal with the initiation problem.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 12, 2019 11:22:45 GMT -5
Two things can be true at the same time: For example, he may have a low T-count, or may have cancer, or his parent may have died, or he may have lost his job. But at the same time and irrespective of life's calamities, he may ALSO not see his marital partner as a sexual partner.
Testosterone can make you physical, increase your chutzpah, lower your agreeableness, and make you horny.
I imagine that taking testosterone when you are married to someone who you don't see as a sexual partner, that this would increase one's own level of discomfort and dissatisfaction rather than relieve it. Consider, for example, how many of unwillingly celibate partners in marriage wish they could reduce their own libido so as to make their celibate existence more tolerable. Why take testosterone pills to increase one's libido when frozen in a marriage to someone who they don't see as a viable sexual partner? Perfectly reasonable reason not to bother dealing with the pills.
What to do about it from the other partner's perspective though? I view this as being like a version of The Talk, in which the behaviors are observed and named- discussed - and then RESET - ignored again. This is an oscillating cycle that can spin on a long time if the worst consequence is merely an uncomfortable conversation.
But, as Baz says - attaching a countdown to a credible and SERIOUS threat - such as ending the marriage or something on that scale and also unignorable and costly - and following through on that - tends to finally focus attention, requiring people to really consider whether they are in or out, and how to commit to either lane.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 12, 2019 11:43:27 GMT -5
You say he doesn't refuse he tries so is the sex fulfilling. Does he seem to enjoy it? Some people due to personality or low hormones don't think about sex but enjoy it when they get it. Or so I've been told. There are others who don't like sex and/ or their spouse they will give in grudgingly to sex if they can't figure out a good way to avoid it . To me that's like paying someone and they act like they hate it but only doing it for the money. In the latter I would rather use my hand. Or go without.
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Post by csl on Dec 12, 2019 11:54:14 GMT -5
Thanks for the insight. Oh, I would love to go to marital counseling. I asked for it in the past and he refused. His T levels were finally checked -- came back clinically low -- he now has the medicine on the bathroom counter and won't take it. Sigh. The biggest obstacle actually is he doesn't want to discuss the problem! As long as the channels of communication are open, there's potential for progress. But when one spouse wants to talk and the other doesn't, what can you do? He bristles when I bring it up and silently waits for me to stop talking. Occasionally he will initiate if it's been a while and he senses I'm upset about it (reset sex) but I don't want that...I want to be wanted. And honestly I'm at the point where if he initiates now, I'm going to say no, so we're at an impasse. As to whether he's into it, I honestly don't know. There's often problems with performance and he rarely finishes, but whether that's the low T or lack of interest in intercourse, I don't know. He has the medicine but won't take it, and your reaction is ... "sigh"? Ma'am, you need to learn the Southern art of the well-timed hissy fit. I'm not saying you need to do a full Julia Sugarbacker, but you need to let him know that ignoring you by forgoing his treatment is unacceptable.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 12, 2019 11:58:25 GMT -5
Hi guys, Just a question about something that occurred to me, and wondering what you think. I'm wondering if I'm correctly calling my marriage a sexless marriage, because my husband doesn't refuse me if I initiate -- he will make an effort (but he never initiates on his own out of a desire for sex). As you know I got tired of being the sole initiator, stopped, and then no sex. Should he be expected to initiate or is it enough that he doesn't refuse me? I know many here have refusing spouses and it seems like another depressing level entirely. It is best when both initiate. But, if my wife really enjoyed sex and responded with passion when I initiated, I could live with that. I'm sure there are some that just naturally don't think about sex and they just need you to introduce the idea to awaken it in them. There are also some that are very sub in their nature and want a dom to take charge before they are turned on. I wouldn't consider a lack of initiation a sexless marriage as long as after it is initiated their was passion and desire. I think communication and maybe counseling could deal with the initiation problem. It can, with caveats. True aesexuals occupy maybe .5-1% of the population, and yet this is one of the most common marital problems. Most of the time, the partner is either averse to the other partner or to the circumstance of a committed relationship with them, which results in the averse behavior with them. In the context of intending monogamy, this may present as aesexuality - but once the circumstance or the partner is changed - suddenly the libido reappears. If it is the latter problem, then one must consider that attempts at communication and centering attention sex and preferences will end up with the averse partner framing the communicative partner as "sex obsessed", "sex addicted", "perverse", or "insatiable". "Communication will be framed as "you pressuring her/him". Bargaining may result - "If you just stop pressuring me for a week, month, year, 5 years etc, maybe it would happen..." The seemingly hyperbolic remedy they will propose in the ensuing fights will tellingly be "maybe you should just find another partner who likes sex as much as you." Interesting that - because the train blasts right through "lets have normal marital sex" station and goes off the rails somewhere into "you need another partner" - which is projection. It's what they are thinking. But in some cases - and I've encountered these often in new and growing sexual dynamics - people really DO get honest about talking about what they want to explore or what their known preferences are. If you are into someone, this becomes a way less fraught discussion. Sexual Power dynamics, games and preferences in some cases reveal clear priorities in the ways people want or need to have sex. Fetishes or dominance and submission dynamics often become tools in helping people "get out of their heads" or getting over themselves to enjoy sex, and it can be a thing that comes between people if they feel they can't talk about it or find that with their partner. In those cases, communication can be a really helpful first step. In my latter marriage especially, I became a real geek for that stuff, learning as much as I could about various approaches and needs, and playing it back to my wife. Some wasn't really my taste, but I have a sense of adventure. It just ended up being read as additional pressure and perversion by my wife.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 12, 2019 12:29:38 GMT -5
paddlingalone, I am ever the optimist - which, frankly, has led to me being where I am for so very long, so don’t count that as a good trait... Apocrypha makes a valid point in line with my closing comment - that low desire could also be the root issue, making his lack of motivation to address the low-T just a symptom. I.e., consciously choosing not to improve his libido. You won’t know one way or the other unless you can get him talking candidly. And, frankly, that may be hard. Aside from stereotypical stubbornness and unwillingness to be vulnerable, he may be unwilling to face the social and financial consequences of a divorce that may result from such a conversation. Especially if he’s the kind of person who ignores issues to avoid conflict. It may take an ultimatum _that you’re prepared to execute_, a la “This is a deal breaker, and if you won’t open up and deal with this I’ll have to base my decisions on the bad facts I can see.” At the end of the day, his actions (or lack there of) and your relationship dynamic is what makes or breaks the situation, but it doesn’t seem likely to improve in silence. (And even with comms, there is much work to be done.)
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 12, 2019 13:27:39 GMT -5
Apocrypha makes a valid point in line with my closing comment - that low desire could also be the root issue To be crystal clear, in case that's mistaken for aesexuality, low desire s pecifically for one's own partner; not necessarily in general. I know that when I was in my dysfunctional marriage deal, I pleaded with the gods to be released from having sexual desire. I'd grown to hate it. And here's these low T-Count dudes who have their wish granted. Don't think I'd want to take those pills if I was trying to stay monogamous.
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Post by paddlingalone on Dec 12, 2019 13:54:21 GMT -5
Thank you all. This is giving me some things to think about, though I admit now I am feeling somewhat confused. Here's what I know: he says before he met me, he had been single for about 8 years. It was during that time that his libido dropped. Previous to that, he had had girlfriends and a normal -- even daily -- sex life. I asked him if any girlfriends in the past had complained about lack of sexual frequency, and he said no. I suspect it was during this single phase that his hormone levels changed, hence his lack of drive in pursuing new relationships, and no real discomfort with celibacy. I've asked him on a couple occasions if he's attracted to me -- the answer is always yes, but of course he could be lying. He's never actually told me I'm sexy or beautiful. It could be he's protecting some information that, if disclosed, would be crushing for the marriage and he knows it. Like if I find out our problem can't be fixed, I'll go, so he's delaying the inevitable... I agree that if he won't have an open discussion, likely the only option left for me is an ultimatum (which I have given before, but since I wasn't able to leave, it was an empty threat.. ) I don't know guys. A spouse who never shows interest is a dealbreaker for me, even if I could be having sex if I asked for it. His lack of interest has killed my interest. And now something that is supposed to be simple has become dysfunctional, and that dysfunction is starting to ruin the 'good' parts of the marriage too. I have a 3 year plan. I figured by then I will be comfortable with driving, the kids will be old to enough for school/preschool, I'll be working, and if anything's going to change by then, it will. I'm open-minded to working on things if he decides to do -- something. Take his medication, go to counseling with me, whatever. I guess what I'm saying is if the root cause is lack of sexual chemistry/attraction, that likely can't be fixed and we're done. Anything fixable, I'm willing to stay another 3 years to turn things around.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 12, 2019 14:07:51 GMT -5
paddlingalone, I believe your thinking is on the right track. The only viable “out” being if he has a correctable condition that he’s just too ashamed to talk about... and he can become motivated to discuss it and take action. Otherwise, regardless of the reason for his low desire, the facts won’t change about his lack of interest. Truthfully, the odds of these things lining up in your favor are pretty low, but you don’t have much to lose by trying if your alternative is 3 years out.
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Post by ihadalove on Dec 12, 2019 16:19:22 GMT -5
I don't know guys. A spouse who never shows interest is a dealbreaker for me, even if I could be having sex if I asked for it. His lack of interest has killed my interest. And now something that is supposed to be simple has become dysfunctional, and that dysfunction is starting to ruin the 'good' parts of the marriage too. Yes it really does leak out into everything.
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Post by baza on Dec 12, 2019 16:34:20 GMT -5
It would now seem Sister paddlingalone , that you have made a choice .... That you are staying until at least 2022. That's good, in as much as you are consciously making that choice and owning it. That puts you in an empowered position. You have a plan. And presumably, as further facts emerge about your husbands willingness or ability to address his assorted issues, your plan will change as a result. Those facts will go along the lines of - - those facts staying the same - those facts getting better - those facts getting worse
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Post by theexplorer on Dec 12, 2019 18:38:31 GMT -5
Testosterone plays a significant role in a man's life. In addition to it's effect on sex drive, low testosterone can cause a bunch of other negative effects. I don't recall all of these effects, but unreasonable fears, lack of motivation / drive, depression, and other outcomes can result from low testosterone. If you look up the effects of low testosterone, you may find he has some of these other symptoms. If so, you may be able to use some of these other symptoms to motivate him to try taking it.
I know some guys have said that taking testosterone made them feel VASTLY better. It can be a real life changer in some cases. If I knew your husband, I would encourage him to try it!
On a somewhat different topic, my wife never says "No" to sex. She typically says something like: "Let's do that later..." "Wait until this week-end..." "I'm to tired...." "I had such a long day...."
She has a lot of other excuses, but stalling is her preferred tactic. When she promises sex the next week-end... It NEVER happens!!!!
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Post by idgaf96 on Dec 13, 2019 23:34:05 GMT -5
If he is refusing or has low interest. If it is due to the low T or lack of interest in you it doesnt matter. If you are unhappy and he is not interested in meeting your needs then you have to do what is best for you. My husband would probably fuck me a couple times a week if I initiated hell, he occasionaly initiates but as i have expressed in past posts it is not a good thing. He could care less about my pleasure and when we do have sex it is a get r done as fast as possible with nothing but penetration with a flacid dick. It is not just not pleasing it is gross and nauseating. It is all about him coming and he could care less if it does anything for me. We have been together for 17 years. For the last 8 it has been that way. And for a couple years prior it wasnt great. Yesterday morning when my alarm went off he initiated... this is how it went down. Alarm sounds I shut it off and stretch and yawn and start to wake myself up. He says hey big nipples give me some morning sex. I don't respond... he asks the same question in the same way. No snuggling up or touching. No desire to excite me. Half awake i told him his dick smells and i dont want to take another shower. It was hella mean of me but let's be real. His cum stinks. I'm so used to being used and not loved by him i have now become the refuse and have my needs met by someone who truly loves me and loves pleasing me as much as i love pleasing him. I dont want stinky limp dick quickies. I dont want to be someone's blowup doll or to beg for intimacy and affection. I want to be wanted. I want more. Anyway, I may have rambled on that one because even after all these years and even after finding someone lse that I truly love amd that loves me as much and who makes me feel amazing and fucks like a god it still sucks and fucks with my head. Life is to short to deal with this shit. Any of it. Go be happy.
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Post by paddlingalone on Dec 14, 2019 12:02:32 GMT -5
idgaf96, that sounds toxic and horrible. Sorry.
You know, I think one of the common denominators to all of our situations is we are with people who have a below average level of empathy.
That, or they are afraid to be upfront and truthful regarding why they don't want to be sexual with us. As someone commented, the prospect of divorce can be a real deterrent from having those important conversations.
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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 17, 2019 14:18:23 GMT -5
That, or they are afraid to be upfront and truthful regarding why they don't want to be sexual with us. As someone commented, the prospect of divorce can be a real deterrent from having those important conversations. I think it's this. It's not that hard to empathize with - and that's important to understanding why it isn't centered in your conversations. Look at what you have in common: You both are in a relationship in which you sense a profound disconnection. You both are in a relationship with a partner with whom you do not have mutual a sexual connection. You both opt to remain celibate rather than pursuing romantic opportunities, likely for the same reasons: the prospect of divorce. You are imagining the lonely road ahead and the de facto oath of celibacy. So is she.
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