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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 10, 2020 6:58:21 GMT -5
I hadn't gotten the impression that she'd had an affair. Only half your marriage was sexless. Your half. We'll let that go without further comment. Very informative to hear that even opening the marriage didn't help. I'd be terribly curious to get a good sampling of people who respond to a SM with an opening up and see what the various outcomes are. No doubt some fraction will end up like you. One partner attempting to make an amiable platonic relationship of it, with the other being indifferent and phoning it in. Thanks for the personal background.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 10, 2020 9:49:15 GMT -5
I hadn't gotten the impression that she'd had an affair. Only half your marriage was sexless. Your half. We'll let that go without further comment. Very informative to hear that even opening the marriage didn't help. I'd be terribly curious to get a good sampling of people who respond to a SM with an opening up and see what the various outcomes are. No doubt some fraction will end up like you. One partner attempting to make an amiable platonic relationship of it, with the other being indifferent and phoning it in. Thanks for the personal background. To provide a window inside, to my knowledge - the affair lasted 6 months, after a period of attention on the sexless marriage lasting several years, post kids. The initial stages of opening the marriage after that in relationship 2.0 (a year after the affair ended and my interest in continuing the catastrophic "reconciliation") appeared to work, but were fraught because she was less successful than me in dutifully compartmentalizing and going through the mental and emotional discipline of moderating and slowing down HER jealousy response to my own paramour. She had catastrophic responses, but chalked it up to "learning curve" which I accepted, despite managing it more effectively on my side. As in, despite being the lead advocate for the open marriage - which I accepted as a compromise and actively supported and participated in her external business, she continually chose to break the rules we mutually established, however minor and wherever we fell back to, while at the same time also taking out her anxieties and personal comparisons between herself and my paramours, on me. After running that program for around 2 years, I announced that I was not doing it anymore. Despite the considerable effort on my side of it, she was treating it and me basically the same as if I was having an affair. And despite her temporary spike in interest in sex with me, it fell again back to zero, while also maintaining interest externally. Even though she still clung to a "low libido" story for herself, the evidence was crystal clear that this narrative really didn't fit.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 13, 2020 7:06:59 GMT -5
To provide a window inside, to my knowledge - the affair lasted 6 months, after a period of attention on the sexless marriage lasting several years, post kids. The initial stages of opening the marriage after that in relationship 2.0 appeared to work, but were fraught because she was less successful than me in dutifully compartmentalizing and going through the mental and emotional discipline of moderating and slowing down HER jealousy response to my own paramour. She had catastrophic responses, but chalked it up to "learning curve" which I accepted, despite managing it more effectively on my side. As in, despite being the lead advocate for the open marriage - which I accepted as a compromise and actively supported and participated in her external business, she continually chose to break the rules we mutually established, however minor and wherever we fell back to, while at the same time also taking out her anxieties and personal comparisons between herself and my paramours, on me. After running that program for around 2 years, I announced that I was not doing it anymore. Despite the considerable effort on my side of it, she was treating it and me basically the same as if I was having an affair. And despite her temporary spike in interest in sex with me, it fell again back to zero, while also maintaining interest externally. Even though she still clung to a "low libido" story for herself, the evidence was crystal clear that this narrative really didn't fit. A one vagina policy, huh? I had a short lived polyamorous trio in my mid twenties and our mutual lady got lost in NRE and I misinterpreted it as neglect. When I spoke of locating a second lady to produce a quad, she expressed misgivings about THAT part of poly. So, yeah, it's a good thing to go in with eyes wide open. Much easier in 2020 than in 1994. The Coolidge Effect more or less predicts that once a partner loses interest, it won't come back. Even more so if other mates are available. I'm curious what might have happened if you divorced, but changed nothing else. If you were her ex-husband, still sharing a house and life, would the jealousy be helped in any way, or could she just not shake the possessiveness. Pure speculation, but I amuse myself sometimes that way. When my wife swears she'll divorce me if I take a lover, I contemplate doing just that. I expect no success in that outcome, but again; amusement. She's clinically depressed and suffers vestibulodynia. Minus medical treatment, she's likely not marrying again. Why bother with the divorce? Societal convention? Probably. Appearances, I think, always ran as a high priority with her family. You kept your secrets close. Divorce would be okay. Polyamory? Scandalous! Oddly, divorce is fading though. I need to post an intro on the other topic set. Things got interesting lately.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 13, 2020 14:15:48 GMT -5
A one vagina policy, huh? I had a short lived polyamorous trio in my mid twenties and our mutual lady got lost in NRE and I misinterpreted it as neglect. When I spoke of locating a second lady to produce a quad, she expressed misgivings about THAT part of poly. My main conditions for the opening: 1. It would be open on both sides. At this point - after her affair, and after a disastrous reconciliation year in which she spent pining for her affair partner and blaming me for keeping her away from him, I was not confident in her ability to intuit or empathize with me and with what she was inflicting. By balancing scales (to the extent that I could) I would ensure that she was crystal clear on the effects - eyes wide open. Given that her pattern seemed to be about bucking rules and convention, I wanted to offer her maximum latitude, while also ensuring that she understood the emotional cost. 2. It would not involve her affair partner in any way, regardless of her relationship with him. 3. She and I would be primary intimate partners. Meaning: regardless of what else was going on, I expected us to have a healthy intimate and sex life together alone. 4. There would be discretion. At no point did I ever want to deal with behavior that required me to account to neighbors or friends. 5. Radical honesty - what we were doing was difficult and (I later discovered, had failed with her ex fiance), and if either of us couldn't handle, we would veto, whether up to the last minute or even during - and things would instantly be scuttled without immediate impact. This was preferable to posing your partner to do something and then changing your mind and becoming upset. When things went derangingly off the rails right away, in her post-mortem, she claimed that my paramours (in serial, the longest about a year and a half, not simultaneously) all intimidatingly attractive, sexual women, made her feel poorly about herself in comparison. It seemed worst when she wasn't present than when she was directly involved, but by her design, she ensured that she would not be involved. It didn't matter that she had her own paramour, and found it relatively easy to get one. Well, that was the plan I fell back to. I could no longer trust that any configuration or partner or encouragement she offered was true. It ended up constantly feeling like I was being set up in a situation that would then result in her abusive reaction and blaming me. It chilled from a hot fight to another dead bedroom. At that point, I went back to my conditions for agreeing to it. I closed the relationship and a couple months later ended the relationship again. She didn't want me, she didn't want anyone else to have me - the only thing she appeared to want was an excuse to express anger at me. I had tried everything I could think of and was at peace with my decision to separate.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 22, 2020 7:40:28 GMT -5
My main conditions for the opening: 1. It would be open on both sides. At this point - after her affair, and after a disastrous reconciliation year in which she spent pining for her affair partner and blaming me for keeping her away from him, I was not confident in her ability to intuit or empathize with me and with what she was inflicting. By balancing scales (to the extent that I could) I would ensure that she was crystal clear on the effects - eyes wide open. Given that her pattern seemed to be about bucking rules and convention, I wanted to offer her maximum latitude, while also ensuring that she understood the emotional cost. 2. It would not involve her affair partner in any way, regardless of her relationship with him. 3. She and I would be primary intimate partners. Meaning: regardless of what else was going on, I expected us to have a healthy intimate and sex life together alone. 4. There would be discretion. At no point did I ever want to deal with behavior that required me to account to neighbors or friends. 5. Radical honesty - what we were doing was difficult and (I later discovered, had failed with her ex fiance), and if either of us couldn't handle, we would veto, whether up to the last minute or even during - and things would instantly be scuttled without immediate impact. This was preferable to posing your partner to do something and then changing your mind and becoming upset.When things went derangingly off the rails right away, in her post-mortem, she claimed that my paramours (in serial, the longest about a year and a half, not simultaneously) all intimidatingly attractive, sexual women, made her feel poorly about herself in comparison. ... It chilled from a hot fight to another dead bedroom. At that point, I went back to my conditions for agreeing to it. I closed the relationship and a couple months later ended the relationship again. She didn't want me, she didn't want anyone else to have me - The roles sound reversed. I stereotypically think of women protecting the primary from outside threats and wanting veto power and the guy just pooching things right from the jump. You had a good starting set of rules for anyone thinking of trying it. That said, poly podcasts I've heard have convinced me that rules easily become sources of resentment. The restricted spouse tends to think of the spouse restricting their action not the rules. An excellent show if you get past the eye-rolling intro (the terrible music and one unfortunate line of the mission of the podcast) is Multiamory. Solid communication is the first and last word of polyamory. When those rules chafe, breaking them unilaterally is "cheating". Dishonesty and deception within relationships is a bad thing whether it be platonic, monamorous, or polyamorous. The veto part is what I figure would get hosed first. If the spouse just vetoes every choice, you still have dead bedroom. I'd figure on a maximum. Say, five. If you torpedo four in a row, you are NOT envisioning worst case scenario. You need to make an effort to find something to like in your paramour or you mustn't agree to it and consider divorce, in which case you'll get no say at all, you'll avoid him and his revolting choice of lovers and maybe, deep down, that's what you wanted all along. (perpetual disclaimer: the roles can be reversed, of course. The pronouns are merely the more typical case as determined by what I've read at EP, Similar Worlds, and here.)
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 22, 2020 16:26:57 GMT -5
My main conditions for the opening: 1. It would be open on both sides. At this point - after her affair, and after a disastrous reconciliation year in which she spent pining for her affair partner and blaming me for keeping her away from him, I was not confident in her ability to intuit or empathize with me and with what she was inflicting. By balancing scales (to the extent that I could) I would ensure that she was crystal clear on the effects - eyes wide open. Given that her pattern seemed to be about bucking rules and convention, I wanted to offer her maximum latitude, while also ensuring that she understood the emotional cost. 2. It would not involve her affair partner in any way, regardless of her relationship with him. 3. She and I would be primary intimate partners. Meaning: regardless of what else was going on, I expected us to have a healthy intimate and sex life together alone. 4. There would be discretion. At no point did I ever want to deal with behavior that required me to account to neighbors or friends. 5. Radical honesty - what we were doing was difficult and (I later discovered, had failed with her ex fiance), and if either of us couldn't handle, we would veto, whether up to the last minute or even during - and things would instantly be scuttled without immediate impact. This was preferable to posing your partner to do something and then changing your mind and becoming upset.When things went derangingly off the rails right away, in her post-mortem, she claimed that my paramours (in serial, the longest about a year and a half, not simultaneously) all intimidatingly attractive, sexual women, made her feel poorly about herself in comparison. ... It chilled from a hot fight to another dead bedroom. At that point, I went back to my conditions for agreeing to it. I closed the relationship and a couple months later ended the relationship again. She didn't want me, she didn't want anyone else to have me - The roles sound reversed. I stereotypically think of women protecting the primary from outside threats and wanting veto power and the guy just pooching things right from the jump. You had a good starting set of rules for anyone thinking of trying it. That said, poly podcasts I've heard have convinced me that rules easily become sources of resentment. The restricted spouse tends to think of the spouse restricting their action not the rules. An excellent show if you get past the eye-rolling intro (the terrible music and one unfortunate line of the mission of the podcast) is Multiamory. Solid communication is the first and last word of polyamory. When those rules chafe, breaking them unilaterally is "cheating". Dishonesty and deception within relationships is a bad thing whether it be platonic, monamorous, or polyamorous. The veto part is what I figure would get hosed first. If the spouse just vetoes every choice, you still have dead bedroom. I'd figure on a maximum. Say, five. If you torpedo four in a row, you are NOT envisioning worst case scenario. You need to make an effort to find something to like in your paramour or you mustn't agree to it and consider divorce, in which case you'll get no say at all, you'll avoid him and his revolting choice of lovers and maybe, deep down, that's what you wanted all along. (perpetual disclaimer: the roles can be reversed, of course. The pronouns are merely the more typical case as determined by what I've read at EP, Similar Worlds, and here.) These are not rules that I framed as a way to do successful polyamory. These were my conditions to agreeing to polyamory as an alternative to divorce. From the get go, with a dead bedroom AND an affair, we were already starting on thin ice. Polyamory formats require disciplined rituals of radical trust and challenging authenticity. I was choosing a partner who cheated on me (while in marital therapy), who tanked the "reconciliation" year by pining for him and blaming me for keeping her apart from her affair partner, and who was conflict averse and passive aggressive - so not prone to stating her needs and having difficult conversations about her needs and limits. The failure of the polyamorous chapter was of the same root as the failure of the monogamous chapter. Namely, she did not want to be married to me - did not see me as a viable romantic partner - and would sooner boff a random guy in line at the 7/11 as me. As such - whether marital therapy, or polyamory, or date night or whatever tableaux in which we engaged, she used it as a medium with which to justify and validate her mindset. Her MO in and out of polyamory was devastating passive aggression - often at astounding levels - and she was conflict averse in person (meaning she would avoid productive conflict and clear statements of her limits and expectations - but would react explosively after the fact, or act to "send a message" about what she thought of even simple rules and the most basic courtesies. You'd think that with the level of freedom offered and the stakes that were CLEARLY at play - and treat it with care as an incredible gift. That was not the case. Novelty and activity and business can put new coat of paint on it and make you feel like you are doing a worthwhile effort together. I think that's why a lot of couples have a baby "to save the marriage" - and end up in the same place later, but older and more fettered to each other. Those things don't correct the fundamentals - which might be as simple as one of the two partners really not wanting to be there (be there, in the marriage, that is). As far as rules go, I anticipated - correctly - that my free spirit wife would want as few as possible. That's why - aside from a veto on the affair partner (someone who treated me with disrespect and had already unforgivably violated my trust, with no chance of redress), my "rules" were largely principle based, and largely not even focused on the polyamory itself - but rather on how she acted in her relationship to ME. At the end of the day, if the polyamory she pitched didn't bring anything to the table for me in terms of the marriage - then why did I need it at all? Why not just separate and have done? Which, when it got to that point - that's exactly the choice I made.
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okiedude
Junior Member
Learning to live with my Situation.
Posts: 87
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by okiedude on Feb 3, 2020 20:43:28 GMT -5
I think going to the question is that when you do all the work... Then you start thinking that you are not loved. Sex is not just a physical act it is a mental act just as much. So the last 4 or more times we have had sex it was because she came home after being with the girls. Had a drink or two and now wants sex. So my thoughts are really she has to drink to sleep with me? I am a good looking guy and a very great husband what is wrong with me.....? If you do all the work it makes you doubt your worth. Is it just pitty sex?
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 23, 2020 21:21:14 GMT -5
Here's what I know: he says before he met me, he had been single for about 8 years. It was during that time that his libido dropped. Previous to that, he had had girlfriends and a normal -- even daily -- sex life. I asked him if any girlfriends in the past had complained about lack of sexual frequency, and he said no. I suspect it was during this single phase that his hormone levels changed, hence his lack of drive in pursuing new relationships, and no real discomfort with celibacy. I've asked him on a couple occasions if he's attracted to me -- the answer is always yes, but of course he could be lying. He's never actually told me I'm sexy or beautiful. Single for eight years could make a guy a bit depressed. Some depressed people turn to sources of comfort that can be damaging long term. Specifically, I'm wondering if maybe he gained substantial weight over those eight years. Atherosclerosis can clog arteries which causes heart attacks, but it can also cause other arteries to clog and reduce circulation. Among them, the penis which can induce intermittent impotence (a cause of major anxiety about sex) and Infertility due to reduced circulation in the testes. The testes also produce testosterone, so atherosclerosis can reduce libido. You may well be attractive to him, but he may not feel an urge to do anything about it. Having that urge would make you "sexy". If regaining his libido isn't of interest, saving his life might be, if atherosclerosis is a possibility. Is he on antidepressants? That can nuke libido for both sexes. Just seeing if anything sticks...
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Post by baza on Feb 23, 2020 22:00:07 GMT -5
Another consideration - that his claim of having a mutually fulfilling sexual life with past girlfriends is a bald faced lie.
Is there any corroborating evidence to back up his claim ?
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Post by rdp62 on Mar 1, 2020 17:56:30 GMT -5
I am sorry to hear a difficult time. In my experience sex just for the other person isn't sex or intimacy at all. Just a reminder how difficult things are
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Post by rdp62 on Mar 2, 2020 15:25:15 GMT -5
Low interest is worse than none, much worse
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