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Post by elynne on Jul 15, 2018 2:49:45 GMT -5
Subsequent to your brief update, it now reads like you didn't actually have a plan (or if you did it was only at 'rough draft' status, not 'do-able' status) Brother @shynjdude . If I've got that wrong, then ignore the following.... With the cat now well and truly out of the bag, you have put yourself in a position of "crash through or crash". That is to say, you now hunt this through no matter what and accept any sub-optimal outcomes that letting the cat out early causes... in other words you crash through to the other side. Or, you beat a hasty retreat, accepting that in so doing you have shred your cred along with the sub-optimal outcomes that involves... in other words, you crash. And resign yourself to a further period of misery whilst you gather your resources, try and re-establish your cred etc over the next couple of years or so. Shithouse choices. Baza, there is one more option that we have unfortunately seen many times here. It's the crash, swerve, crash, swerve, crash through approach. This technique involves making the leave decision (or having it made for you), swerving back into the lane, crashing into a guardrail, swerving back into the road, and repeating the process until the vehicle finally comes to a stop. It's a bit like when I used to drive fucked up in the old days. It seemed bad to me, but was a terror for anyone in the car with me and for anybody in my path. Without naming names, we have seen many examples of this on this forum. Not a pretty sight. No need to name names. I’ll just pop up and say hi. 😬 @shynjdude, Perhaps I’m taking a simple and optimistic view of the scenario, but I think this is really good news. A couple of points: 1. Speak with your lawyer ASAP to learn what you need to do to protect yourself financially, and then take those measures. (Signing agreements, freezing assets, selling property and splitting the proceeds.. no idea but a good lawyer should guide you.) And ask him about your expected drop in salary. It seems reasonable that if you know your salary will be changing that your alimony payments will adjust to the lower salary. Perhaps adding a clause that you will also increase your alimony payments if your salary increases would appeal to everyone’s sense of fairness? 2. I get that your wife wants support and help with her surgeries. It makes sense that she wants that support to be you because she’s gotten away with being self-centered and being demanding in the past. Other people that may help her after her surgeries will likely not put up with the same behavior. She’d have to treat them with politeness and respect. That said, as much social pressure as your wife feels, I strongly suspect she can behave appropriately when required. There are home health aids, visiting nurses, you have grown children and your wife must have friends, as well as the support of the synagogue. The Jewish Foundation has excellent resources for helping people in need. Basically she’s creating a scenario where she is trying to make YOU be responsible for something SHE needs. You can choose to take on that responsibility or a portion of it, or none at all. But make that a deliberate choice that you make intentionally. I see a likely scenario playing out where she uses her pain/illness/guilt trips to order you around, play the diva, and re establish the dynamic where you are working hard to placate her. If she feels she’s losing control she may exaggerate her illness or delay her recovery. IF you decide to help her after her surgery, work with your therapist to create clear boundaries. Time lines, what you are willing to do, what she’ll need to arrange nursing care to cover, perhaps friends to take her to doctor’s appointments. And most importantly how she will interact with you (with as much politeness and respect as she would use with a stranger). And congratulations, Shy. There may be ups and downs, but you’re moving into a new phase where you are responsible for your own happiness again. I have complete faith you’ll handle the issues that arise and make choices that are aligned with your long term happiness. Good for you! Life is waiting!!! And she was starting to get impatient! 😅 |
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 15, 2018 8:55:17 GMT -5
Shyndude, what exactly are your wife’s illnesses? From what you’ve posted, it seems she uses those to gaslight and and manipulate you. Revealing them won’t identify her. It will help people here give you more informed advice and support. In not revealing them you are enabling her perceived helplessness.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 15, 2018 12:37:54 GMT -5
Baza, there is one more option that we have unfortunately seen many times here. It's the crash, swerve, crash, swerve, crash through approach. This technique involves making the leave decision (or having it made for you), swerving back into the lane, crashing into a guardrail, swerving back into the road, and repeating the process until the vehicle finally comes to a stop. It's a bit like when I used to drive fucked up in the old days. It seemed bad to me, but was a terror for anyone in the car with me and for anybody in my path. Without naming names, we have seen many examples of this on this forum. Not a pretty sight. No need to name names. I’ll just pop up and say hi. 😬 @shynjdude, Perhaps I’m taking a simple and optimistic view of the scenario, but I think this is really good news. A couple of points: 1. Speak with your lawyer ASAP to learn what you need to do to protect yourself financially, and then take those measures. (Signing agreements, freezing assets, selling property and splitting the proceeds.. no idea but a good lawyer should guide you.) And ask him about your expected drop in salary. It seems reasonable that if you know your salary will be changing that your alimony payments will adjust to the lower salary. Perhaps adding a clause that you will also increase your alimony payments if your salary increases would appeal to everyone’s sense of fairness? 2. I get that your wife wants support and help with her surgeries. It makes sense that she wants that support to be you because she’s gotten away with being self-centered and being demanding in the past. Other people that may help her after her surgeries will likely not put up with the same behavior. She’d have to treat them with politeness and respect. That said, as much social pressure as your wife feels, I strongly suspect she can behave appropriately when required. There are home health aids, visiting nurses, you have grown children and your wife must have friends, as well as the support of the synagogue. The Jewish Foundation has excellent resources for helping people in need. Basically she’s creating a scenario where she is trying to make YOU be responsible for something SHE needs. You can choose to take on that responsibility or a portion of it, or none at all. But make that a deliberate choice that you make intentionally. I see a likely scenario playing out where she uses her pain/illness/guilt trips to order you around, play the diva, and re establish the dynamic where you are working hard to placate her. If she feels she’s losing control she may exaggerate her illness or delay her recovery. IF you decide to help her after her surgery, work with your therapist to create clear boundaries. Time lines, what you are willing to do, what she’ll need to arrange nursing care to cover, perhaps friends to take her to doctor’s appointments. And most importantly how she will interact with you (with as much politeness and respect as she would use with a stranger). And congratulations, Shy. There may be ups and downs, but you’re moving into a new phase where you are responsible for your own happiness again. I have complete faith you’ll handle the issues that arise and make choices that are aligned with your long term happiness. Good for you! Life is waiting!!! And she was starting to get impatient! 😅 LOL, you were not on my list. |
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Post by surfergirl on Jul 15, 2018 12:55:51 GMT -5
shamwow I'll take the bumper car moniker. I know I'm in that club. But? I'm out. And I'm sane. And I'm rocking it. Everyone else has their "exit plans" and "timelines". But? Screw it. I'm out! And PROUD OF IT. I do life a little differently than the rest of you-- even with 21 years of marriage and six kids. And that's cool, too. If anyone had an excuse, I did.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 14:44:42 GMT -5
Shyndude, what exactly are your wife’s illnesses? From what you’ve posted, it seems she uses those to gaslight and and manipulate you. Revealing them won’t identify her. It will help people here give you more informed advice and support. In not revealing them you are enabling her perceived helplessness. She has had generalized problems for years - been diagnosed with lupus, fibromyalgia, lots of other things, constant sinus infections as well. Her CRP was always high, indicating inflammation, but finding the source has been frustrating. She found a holistic doctor (real MD though) who sent her to a similarly holistic dentist/dental surgeon, who said that she had some very bad infections in her jaw and underneath several root canals. First doctor has been treating her with some other alternative therapies, like ozone injections, vitamin drips and ultraviolet blood irradiation, which supposedly keeps infections under control without antibiotics (she had overused antibiotics and has other problems with them. traditional medicine frowns on these. I did see that ozone was used seemingly successfully before penicillin came along. ) He extracted several teeth and saw the infections, as well as necrosis in the bones. She has her own theories as to what is happening which sound far fetched. But she has definitely been slowly feeling better over the past year as she has had all these tooth extractions and infections scraped out. Admittedly, I have not spoken to her doctors about this stuff, which is my own major fault. |
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Post by baza on Jul 15, 2018 22:26:26 GMT -5
Your missus has assorted real or imagined maladies Brother @shynjdude .
And there's the thing - they are *hers*.
And they will remain *hers* whether she is married to you (or someone else) or she is single.
Her recovery (if that is possible) is not contingent upon whether she stays married or not.
Likewise, your empathetic support for her is not contingent upon you being married to her, or not. You can, if you choose, remain empathetic and supportive if you are single. In fact, if you were single, and still desirous of being supportive of her that would clearly be because you "want" to do so - not because you are "obligated" to do so.
I'm not seeing this as a show stopper (unless you want it to be).
Your plan - whatever it is - can surely be tweaked to incorporate ongoing empathy and support for her.
Whether she would be amenable to accepting such an offer - or would prefer to go ballistic - would be entirely her choice. And consequence.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2018 3:44:57 GMT -5
I moved into another room. Feeling pretty good about it.
Wife seems to be happy about it too. Is that real or a front? It really doesn't matter. I don't plan to go back.
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 16, 2018 10:24:18 GMT -5
I think any move I make to protect myself now will backfire and start a war. I feel now at a significant disadvantage. I think my priority is to keep her as happy as possible to try to thread the needle of keeping this cool and avoiding huge lawyer fees, which she wants to do. So...what advice can you give me? Don't trust anything she says. Get a lawyer and get the divorce filed asap. The longer you wait, the less advantage you have. Just as your sex life is not HER problem, her medical issues are not YOUR problem. Right now, you may have leverage because she may want to agree to something to stay on the medical plan until her procedures are done. Yes, it sounds cruel, but years of sexual rejection are a LOT more cruel, and she had no problem doing that to you.
I know you may not listen to me, but I hope you do. Don't waste any time.
BTW, I know I just show 25 posts, but I left this board last fall & am now back. I have well over 1000 total posts and I am an original member of this place.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 16, 2018 11:26:29 GMT -5
I agree with flashjohn You are at an advantage to bang out a fair divorce now. The longer you wait the fairness could change. As far as medical paying for cobra could be in the divorce decree. If she truly wants to be fair then things can be decided between the two of you very easily. |
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Post by shamwow on Jul 16, 2018 17:54:01 GMT -5
I think any move I make to protect myself now will backfire and start a war. I feel now at a significant disadvantage. I think my priority is to keep her as happy as possible to try to thread the needle of keeping this cool and avoiding huge lawyer fees, which she wants to do. So...what advice can you give me? Don't trust anything she says. Get a lawyer and get the divorce filed asap. The longer you wait, the less advantage you have. Just as your sex life is not HER problem, her medical issues are not YOUR problem. Right now, you may have leverage because she may want to agree to something to stay on the medical plan until her procedures are done. Yes, it sounds cruel, but years of sexual rejection are a LOT more cruel, and she had no problem doing that to you.
I know you may not listen to me, but I hope you do. Don't waste any time.
BTW, I know I just show 25 posts, but I left this board last fall & am now back. I have well over 1000 total posts and I am an original member of this place.
John knows his shit. Listen to him. |
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Post by shamwow on Jul 16, 2018 18:13:43 GMT -5
Shyndude, what exactly are your wife’s illnesses? From what you’ve posted, it seems she uses those to gaslight and and manipulate you. Revealing them won’t identify her. It will help people here give you more informed advice and support. In not revealing them you are enabling her perceived helplessness. She has had generalized problems for years - been diagnosed with lupus, fibromyalgia, lots of other things, constant sinus infections as well. Her CRP was always high, indicating inflammation, but finding the source has been frustrating. She found a holistic doctor (real MD though) who sent her to a similarly holistic dentist/dental surgeon, who said that she had some very bad infections in her jaw and underneath several root canals. First doctor has been treating her with some other alternative therapies, like ozone injections, vitamin drips and ultraviolet blood irradiation, which supposedly keeps infections under control without antibiotics (she had overused antibiotics and has other problems with them. traditional medicine frowns on these. I did see that ozone was used seemingly successfully before penicillin came along. ) He extracted several teeth and saw the infections, as well as necrosis in the bones. She has her own theories as to what is happening which sound far fetched. But she has definitely been slowly feeling better over the past year as she has had all these tooth extractions and infections scraped out. Admittedly, I have not spoken to her doctors about this stuff, which is my own major fault. The beautiful part about alimony is she can spend it on anything she wants to. I'd suggest your stbx spend it on medical care. |
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 17, 2018 14:44:19 GMT -5
@shynjdude I know one of your sticking points about waiting to file was because you will be taking a drop in pay soon which will affect alimony. Someone mentioned previously, and it’s worth repeating, that you can ensure it is written that alimony payments can change based on your income. If you emphasize that if you MAKE more then she will GET more then that might be all she needs to hear and she may not even think about the possibility of you making less.
Also, you can have it written up that you pay for her medical insurance for X amount of time since that is supposedly her biggest concern. (Unless she continuing to see drs out of network anyway?)
I agree with flashjohn. Getting out quickly is in your best interests. Based on what I know if her I do not trust her not to turn on a dime and blindside you.
And that newfound “sexual interest” of hers might just be a tactic for her to get you to stay for as long as she needs your paycheck. We both know she’s not stupid.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 17, 2018 19:10:41 GMT -5
@shynjdude I know one of your sticking points about waiting to file was because you will be taking a drop in pay soon which will affect alimony. Someone mentioned previously, and it’s worth repeating, that you can ensure it is written that alimony payments can change based on your income. If you emphasize that if you MAKE more then she will GET more then that might be all she needs to hear and she may not even think about the possibility of you making less. Also, you can have it written up that you pay for her medical insurance for X amount of time since that is supposedly her biggest concern. (Unless she continuing to see drs out of network anyway?) I agree with flashjohn. Getting out quickly is in your best interests. Based on what I know if her I do not trust her not to turn on a dime and blindside you. And that newfound “sexual interest” of hers might just be a tactic for her to get you to stay for as long as she needs your paycheck. We both know she’s not stupid. I covered my ex's insurance for several months as part of the divorce decree. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2018 20:57:23 GMT -5
Wish I could give a good update, but...I know what everyone will say and I am not doing what I should yet.
Am I averse to looking like a jerk? Am I scared of pissing off this person who has controlled too much of my life, and who has more energy, more creativity, more ability to protect herself and more time than I do? Is she too good at making me feel bad (while claiming that I am doing the same to her?) Am I being manipulated?
Yes, yes and yes.
Yes, I did screw up. I started this prematurely and now she has the advantage. I needed to work on myself more. But I couldn't keep things as they were.
Officially, we are trying to cooperate on this split and she's on board, but in reality she is putting up roadblocks and derailing what I try to do. But it's subtle. I don't detect malice on her part but there is fear and self-protection and underlying anger. I'm still trying to be the nice guy, and she's trying to be even tempered. Every conversation is exhausting.
She gave me a list of things she wants me to agree to in the interim. I found them controlling and insulting, and told her so.
I told her I'll wait six months but I want to prepare during that time. She says that it is mean to ask her to cooperate in the interim because she needs to concentrate on getting better. Maybe - but she stayed up all night clearing out our old bedroom and she painted half of it today.
Left message for lawyer today to ask for strategies I can use to protect myself without starting a war; he didn't get back to me yet.
I'm so tired already and we haven't even started.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 17, 2018 21:12:34 GMT -5
"I told her I'll wait six months but I want to prepare during that time. She says that it is mean to ask her to cooperate in the interim because she needs to concentrate on getting better. Maybe - but she stayed up all night clearing out our old bedroom and she painted half of it today. "
Why? You can get out now and if you want support her through her surgery.
Meanwhile, her very actions indicate that she is in reasonably good shape. I could not clean out a room and paint half of it in a day. Yet, I am healthy! Your wife is playing yo.
The more you talk to her about the divorce, the more you give her an opportunity to gaslight you. Start the proceedings and have her turn to your lawyer if she has questions.
She is not your friend. She is doing everything possible to make things CONTINUE to work in her favor.
Are you in individual therapy? It could help you develop the assertiveness and self compassion to do what's necessary to end the nightmare you're living. Take care of yourself. That's what your wife is doing: focusing on her own interests.
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