|
|
Post by smilin61 on May 19, 2016 7:19:08 GMT -5
I actually told my hub about ILIASM when I joined on EP and how helpful it was for me. Also that it was a public site and he was free to join in the discussions. He said he thought the group was like a bunch of alcoholics going to a bar and asking each other for advice. I told him he didn't need to understand, but he did need to respect my wish to be there. A few years later he said he had looked at the website and read some of my posts and that it was interesting. I've never heard it mentioned since. Hmm..."It was interesting" Didn't that leave you with a "Aaannddd......?" moment? Like, ok, further discussion is required? I know. The answer would have probably been "And....nothing. Like I said, it was interesting. What's for dinner?" No, by the time he cared to look I no longer cared about his opinion. And if he ever expected me to cook his meals, he would starve. I don't cook for roommates and they damn well shouldn't expect me to. (Since we have no kids in the house it's easier for me to do this...) We rarely eat meals together.
|
|
|
|
Post by smilin61 on May 19, 2016 7:24:07 GMT -5
@litw I totally relate to this, However in my case it seems that whatever I do isn't enough. "You could have done more,You should have thought about.... You don't support me in... "  And I just stay quiet because A: it's easier B I know she's not well - I know she's in pain and part of this is her frustration Expected to be a mind reader too? That passive-aggressive, victim crap just pushes my buttons. Which usually means the opposite of staying quiet.  No,wewbwb - not those buttons....
|
|
|
|
Post by wewbwb on May 19, 2016 8:12:12 GMT -5
@litw I totally relate to this, However in my case it seems that whatever I do isn't enough. "You could have done more,You should have thought about.... You don't support me in... " And I just stay quiet because A: it's easier B I know she's not well - I know she's in pain and part of this is her frustration Expected to be a mind reader too? That passive-aggressive, victim crap just pushes my buttons. Which usually means the opposite of staying quiet. No,wewbwb - not those buttons....
Oh - I was looking for "those" buttons  |
|
|
|
Post by itsjustus on May 19, 2016 8:28:33 GMT -5
In the end, it didn't matter. Any idea, any thoughts I had, were invalid, regardless of its source. The irony is, after she refused individual therapy for her issues (I thought them extreme, she called them safely bottled up) she now blames me for not seeking help for our marriage. Oh boy, that just sucks. Nothing you can do with a self-centered, entitled blockhead like that, is there? {le sigh} Sounds about as bad as my mother, particularly after the Alzheimer's kicked in. watchword: impenetrable (which has a delicious double entendre in the context with your wife) Impenetrable. Well done. The exact watch word, especially with the double entendre. The word I used with her during our last discussion as a truly married couple. I sat with her, on the edge of our bed ironically, and thru both our tears told her that she had many, many, hard impenetrable shells that surrounded her true inner woman. And while I considered that I of all people in her life got thru the most of those shells, I still felt many layers away from the real "her". I had never seen, and would never truly see, the soft, vulnerable woman that was at the core of who she was. I would never be able to get lost in her. And I needed that. As a man, as her husband, as her spouse. Because that is what I offered her. That is what I naively had given her from the first day 32 years before, trusting her to give back to me as well. She abused my open heart, while guarding hers. Yes, it was beyond sad that because of her past, she didn't know how to trust me enough to open her heart fully, drop all of the layers. But her refusal to get help to learn how to trust me, killed every vestige of my trust, and love, in her. I now had to guard my heart. I could no longer have her sit safe and protected from the world and feeling loved, in my heart, while I stood unprotected outside the layers of hers. I wasn't married, I was being used. It was over. |
|
|
|
Post by wewbwb on May 19, 2016 10:14:18 GMT -5
itsjustus That is what I tried to explain to my W - that I tried to "loose" myself in her and all I got was pushed to side. Her reply to me was "people shouldn't "loose" themselves in others. I am not sure if there is "right" here - but I know that neither one of us is getting what we need.
|
|
|
|
Post by itsjustus on May 19, 2016 10:26:26 GMT -5
Hmm..."It was interesting" Didn't that leave you with a "Aaannddd......?" moment? Like, ok, further discussion is required? I know. The answer would have probably been "And....nothing. Like I said, it was interesting. What's for dinner?" No, by the time he cared to look I no longer cared about his opinion. And if he ever expected me to cook his meals, he would starve. I don't cook for roommates and they damn well shouldn't expect me to. (Since we have no kids in the house it's easier for me to do this...) We rarely eat meals together.
Yeah, I reached that point, the "roommate" point. I don't do marriage things for roommates. It wasn't necessarily a conscious decision per se, I just didn't care anymore. I went numb. I'm a horribly, completely incurable romantic...and she killed that in me. Without that, all motivation I had for the day to day of a partnership...I just stopped. I got so tired of it all landing on me. The everyday, the romance, the relationship, the family, the house, the...everything. I just stopped. And that made her angrier...which drove me further down. So we ended up spiraling down the drain, with an angry roommate. Let the resentments start! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 10:48:17 GMT -5
itsjustus That is what I tried to explain to my W - that I tried to "loose" myself in her and all I got was pushed to side. Her reply to me was "people shouldn't "loose" themselves in others. I am not sure if there is "right" here - but I know that neither one of us is getting what we need. Let me clear this up for you. You may not be absolutely right, but her sexual refusal and gatekeeping is absolutely wrong. |
|
|
|
Post by eternaloptimism on May 19, 2016 10:49:57 GMT -5
I think on balance I don't give a shit if he reads this.
The truth is the truth.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 10:54:37 GMT -5
I think on balance I don't give a shit if he reads this. The truth is the truth. Damn right!! In my mind, I heard you say this in your English Accent!! It sounded really sexy |
|
|
|
Post by eternaloptimism on May 19, 2016 11:04:44 GMT -5
I think on balance I don't give a shit if he reads this. The truth is the truth. Damn right!! In my mind, I heard you say this in your English Accent!! It sounded really sexy Aah thanks Johnny |
|
|
|
Post by itsjustus on May 19, 2016 11:16:12 GMT -5
itsjustus That is what I tried to explain to my W - that I tried to "loose" myself in her and all I got was pushed to side. Her reply to me was "people shouldn't "loose" themselves in others. I am not sure if there is "right" here - but I know that neither one of us is getting what we need. wewbwb My concept of losing myself in someone, getting lost in someone, has been very hard for me to define. I still struggle to find the right words. It's very true that one shouldn't get so lost in someone that they have no "self" and are dependent on that person for all of their emotional needs, or for that matter, their very identity. So in that respect, your W and others I discuss this with who tell me what she said to you, are right. I totally agree.
What I mean by it is the ability to let go of yourself, and fall into that other person? To still keep the who you are, keep your independent self that faces the world, but also have that someone you can turn to and trust that they will let you into themselves. That they trust you so much, they are willing to do that? For some reason, being with someone who trust's me *that* much, fulfills me. It allows me to give myself to them, completely. That fulfills me. And I want to let them in, to get lost in me. I want to trust *them* that much as well.
I don't know....I know what it feels like, I've had it once, though I lost it. I just can't explain it well. Some of you really good writers on here help me out a little, would you???
(Irony. Shortly after leaving my ex, we individually attended my nephews wedding. A huge banner hung behind them, one the happy couple had made for the ceremony specifically. It read "Marriage is not two people who lose themselves in each other, but two individuals who join together........" The meaning your W meant. My Ex shot me a told you so look from across the church....arrgghh...)
|
|
|
|
Post by wewbwb on May 19, 2016 11:26:11 GMT -5
I understand the difficultly in putting it into words - I have to same issue. By no means am I a wordsmith. I felt that a marriage should two people joining together. Partners in all. Total trust and unconditional love. Nothing held back. Not loose yourself in that you no longer have an identity. But "lost" in the other persons love.
Allowing me to love that person completely as well. Because if I can't feel that - I'll hold something in reserve for when it ends.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on May 19, 2016 11:44:56 GMT -5
I once heard, 25 yrs ago," love is the greatest commitment you can make for the good of another person." As you can tell I bought that, I still remember it.
A month ago I heard " love is an agreement, a covenant, a mutual sharing, it involves giving and taking" I like that much better.
Take what is rightfully yours. My biggest fault is not taking, not standing up for what was and is rightfully mine. The freedom to be respected, and be myself. That will lead you to opening your heart and having a.mutual trust!
|
|
|
|
Post by itsjustus on May 19, 2016 12:41:49 GMT -5
I have all of my story's from EP archived, from the first one where I boldly, and naively stated that there had to be a 4th choice besides Accepting, Out-sourcing, or Leaving to a SM and kicked off #4, our marriage repair attempt, to the last one titled "Normal" that started with "I'm tired of discussing what my marriage should be, could be, I just want normal". It is almost a journal of the whole process that ended in me leaving.
Even now, I think about printing those out and sending them to her, so she can see I tried, I really tried. If only to sooth my guilt of leaving.
Maybe it wouldn't be bad for Refusers to see what we write...selectively of course. lol.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 19, 2016 15:30:50 GMT -5
I sat with her, on the edge of our bed ironically, and thru both our tears told her that she had many, many, hard impenetrable shells that surrounded her true inner woman. And while I considered that I of all people in her life got thru the most of those shells, I still felt many layers away from the real "her". I had never seen, and would never truly see, the soft, vulnerable woman that was at the core of who she was. I would never be able to get lost in her. And I needed that. As a man, as her husband, as her spouse. Because that is what I offered her. That is what I naively had given her from the first day 32 years before, trusting her to give back to me as well. She abused my open heart, while guarding hers. Yes, it was beyond sad that because of her past, she didn't know how to trust me enough to open her heart fully, drop all of the layers. But her refusal to get help to learn how to trust me, killed every vestige of my trust, and love, in her. I now had to guard my heart. I could no longer have her sit safe and protected from the world and feeling loved, in my heart, while I stood unprotected outside the layers of hers. I wasn't married, I was being used. It was over. , we are going to have to stop making each other cry.  Your words are exactly my story, just flip the genders. I can't even articulate how much he's hurt me and destroyed my trust in him (in men, in love) over the years. I would open myself to him, drop all my armor (your metaphor from another post), he would hear me (not listen - because that's an entirely different construct), and later.... he would use it all against me. I think there is a term for that, but I can't think of it right now. He would, quite literally, allow me to cry on his shoulder only later to say something along the lines of "and all you did was sit there crying!". Ouch, and that's putting it mildly. Needless to say, I had to quit sharing my inner life with him. It just hurt me too deeply. And the impenetrable shells. I can count on one finger - and I am not exaggerating - the times my husband has ever said he was sad. ONCE. And he wouldn't tell me why until a couple of days later. And, when he did, he did it with (very rare) tears in his eyes which I now believe were a ploy to reel me back in during a time when I had retreated from him. Because quite literally, days later, he was at it again with his defensive, argumentative, punitive, and distant manner. The more I "talk" about it, the more I begin to see the narcissistic tendencies in my husband. Maybe your ex as well? The end of my marriage is going to come down to a version of your bolded words above: his refusal to get help for his psychological issues and alcohol abuse are killing/have killed my trust, respect, and love for him. Sadly, I have given him so many chances to change, to work with me, to grow. I have talked until I am blue in the face. It is a language he does not speak and refuses to learn. In the past, I would have taken any crumbs he would have thrown me - so long as they were sustained. A 5-minute debriefing every night? Would have loved it. He did it for about a week. More sex? Absolutely. We may have had a few weeks in a row - woohoo. A monthly date? Yep, he did that for 2 whole months. As the insults and injuries have added up and the damage to the marriage and to my self-esteem have become compounded, the stakes have only risen for him. And now, in order to keep me, the mountain he would have to climb to once again prove his love and win my trust is taller than Mount Everest. When I am honest with myself and when my eyes are wide open, and when I am not in my fearful place, I know it shall never happen. And now, I am crying again! Off to read something from the lighter side... |
|
Your words are exactly my story, just flip the genders. I can't even articulate how much he's hurt me and destroyed my trust in him (in men, in love) over the years. I would open myself to him, drop all my armor (your metaphor from another post), he would hear me (not listen - because that's an entirely different construct), and later.... he would use it all against me. I think there is a term for that, but I can't think of it right now. He would, quite literally, allow me to cry on his shoulder only later to say something along the lines of "and all you did was sit there crying!". Ouch, and that's putting it mildly. Needless to say, I had to quit sharing my inner life with him. It just hurt me too deeply.