bigbossfan
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Age Range: 51-55
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Post by bigbossfan on Jun 29, 2017 11:04:16 GMT -5
First of, my apologies if this has been covered in another thread....I did some hunting around but couldn't find anything.
So, lately I find myself that even at the slightest hint of the wife wanting to be amourous, I get instantly turned off. I alluded to this in one of my other posts yesterday, from time to time, she'll flash me her breasts and I carry on as though I don't notice, or I'll make a comment like "nice tits", and walk away. Reason being, typically I'd go over, give them a grope, a kiss and a suck perhaps, only to find myself even more sexually frustrated because nothing further would happen, despite promises that there would be something happening!
Last night as I'm getting myself a snack she comes up behind me, starts scratching my back. It's weird. I haven't felt this ever in our SM, and I'm wondering if maybe my eyes are being opened because of all the great stuff I'm reading here. Anyway, my reaction, was to pull away, and give her a little tap on the arm, kind of like you would a buddy. I don't want to say I was repulsed by it, but surprisingly enough, I felt VERY uncomfortable.
I got a text from her today saying "Hi Hon. How are you today? I wish you would talk to me and let me know why you are in such gloomy bad moods. Are you upset with me over something? Love you xo".
My response to her I'm sure will disappoint some here. I said to her "Just going though a valley again hon. Not you."
The reason for my response, Canada Day long weekend is coming up, family is coming up and then she is going away next Tuesday for a week. It's my intent to formulate exactly what I want to say to her. My plan is to write all the shit down in a letter and read it to her because I know that if I try to discuss, it'll be a constant cut off, interjections, excuses etc. And truth be told, will enable me to lay out all this shit in a sequential and logical manner. Besides, I don't want their to be an air of tension while we are hosting family and supposed to be having a good time. Is this wrong??
Anyway, I digress. I got off track. Back to "Refusing the Refuser". Whats everyones thoughts on this? I'm assuming perfectly normal no? |
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 29, 2017 11:15:24 GMT -5
My thoughts on this:
In regards to her text you did not stick up for yourself.
You need to advocate for yourself.
If you want to fix your marriage then the appropriate response is
"Yes I'm in a bad mood. I've been in a bad mood for a long time because there is no sex, intimacy or passion in our relationship".
Be honest see what she says.
If you don't want sex with her then you are a counter refuser and your response was appropriately avoidant like a typical refuser.
I hope this did not come across harsh it was not meant that way.
It is meant with compassion and support.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 11:37:25 GMT -5
bigbossfanFirst of all, I completely understand why you didn't tell her the real reason. She will bring up the same old excuses over and over. And it was not something you wanted to discuss over text. Your idea of writing everything down to read to her is excellent. You don't have to be misquoted about what you said. I would suggest you start by referencing her text and tell her that you were not ready to talk about the issue at that time, but now you are. I would suggest one thing that I failed to do. After you have read her the letter and told her the issues, remind her at least once a week. Never stop doing this. Keep on telling her you are dissatisfied until she fixes the issue. That way, when/if you decide to divorce or outsource, she can never say she was not warned.
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Post by bballgirl on Jun 29, 2017 11:39:29 GMT -5
bigbossfanFirst of all, I completely understand why you didn't tell her the real reason. She will bring up the same old excuses over and over. And it was not something you wanted to discuss over text. Your idea of writing everything down to read to her is excellent. You don't have to be misquoted about what you said. I would suggest you start by referencing her text and tell her that you were not ready to talk about the issue at that time, but now you are. I would suggest one thing that I failed to do. After you have read her the letter and told her the issues, remind her at least once a week. Never stop doing this. Keep on telling her you are dissatisfied until she fixes the issue. That way, when/if you decide to divorce or outsource, she can never say she was not warned. I agree. ^^^^ This is excellent advice. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 29, 2017 11:49:08 GMT -5
The feeling of discomfort comes from the realization that despite other feelings you may have for her, which might include love, you do not have a sexual relationship with her (I'm inferring the context, so please correct me if I am wrong).
It seems to be called "counter-refusal" on here, but I prefer to just call it refusal. You have your reasons. She has hers. They are all important reasons.
Neither of you are authentic with each other about what they are, and you find yourselves (one or both) to be unable to change that. When someone with whom you do not have a sexual relationship touches you, it can feel uncomfortable. For you, you have been trained to know that intimate touch has an unsatisfying limit with your wife, that makes you feel unfulfilled and unhappy.
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bigbossfan
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Age Range: 51-55
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Post by bigbossfan on Jun 29, 2017 11:51:15 GMT -5
My thoughts on this: In regards to her text you did not stick up for yourself. You need to advocate for yourself. If you want to fix your marriage then the appropriate response is "Yes I'm in a bad mood. I've been in a bad mood for a long time because there is no sex, intimacy or passion in our relationship". Be honest see what she says. If you don't want sex with her then you are a counter refuser and your response was appropriately avoidant like a typical refuser. I hope this did not come across harsh it was not meant that way. It is meant with compassion and support. Didn't come across as harsh in the slightest, and in all honesty, I appreciate the fact that you gave me an alternate view. I suppose after being weak for 22 years, it's hard to break a habit. Having said this, I will be sticking to my plan to lay all the cards out on the table upon her return from vacation. The big thing for me to figure out between now and then is to decide if I want to separate or give her one last chance. It won't be the first time we've had "the talk". |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 13:32:49 GMT -5
Didn't come across as harsh in the slightest, and in all honesty, I appreciate the fact that you gave me an alternate view. I suppose after being weak for 22 years, it's hard to break a habit. Having said this, I will be sticking to my plan to lay all the cards out on the table upon her return from vacation. The big thing for me to figure out between now and then is to decide if I want to separate or give her one last chance. It won't be the first time we've had "the talk". Yes, it is extremely hard to overcome the habit of not mentioning your dissatisfaction. Stay strong & do what you know you need to do. |
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bigbossfan
Junior Member
Posts: 26
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by bigbossfan on Jun 29, 2017 13:37:24 GMT -5
Didn't come across as harsh in the slightest, and in all honesty, I appreciate the fact that you gave me an alternate view. I suppose after being weak for 22 years, it's hard to break a habit. Having said this, I will be sticking to my plan to lay all the cards out on the table upon her return from vacation. The big thing for me to figure out between now and then is to decide if I want to separate or give her one last chance. It won't be the first time we've had "the talk". Yes, it is extremely hard to overcome the habit of not mentioning your dissatisfaction. Stay strong & do what you know you need to do. Oh, believe me, I've mentioned it MANY times. But nothing has changed. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jun 29, 2017 13:41:40 GMT -5
bigbossfan I would suggest one thing that I failed to do. After you have read her the letter and told her the issues, remind her at least once a week. Never stop doing this. Keep on telling her you are dissatisfied until she fixes the issue. That way, when/if you decide to divorce or outsource, she can never say she was not warned. Just my own experience, and what I read about. Actions speak louder than words. In fact words go in one ear and out the other, when dealing with a controller, (a refuser). It's like a scene out of Startrek dealing with the Borg, "resistance is futile". Weather you warned her or not, is way down on the priority list. The trust, the honesty, the desire, the communication, was most likely there in the beginning. That's why you married her. That has been thrown away in one big pile, or slowly chipped away, it doesn't matter, it's gone. The words in the letter are a boundary. Please consider consequences as well, action to back it up. Like disciplining a child. You are knocking her off her pedestal and leveling the playing field. Be prepared with follow up actions. shrink4men.com/2012/04/05/putting-women-on-pedestals-dont-do-it/ |
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Post by h on Jun 29, 2017 15:30:34 GMT -5
I also am a big fan of writing my thoughts down so nothing gets lost in an argument. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. If discussion degenerates into argument, you have your points all in front of you to keep your focus on the issue you need to deal with. In my personal experience, when I get into a heated argument over something that is important to me, I don't hold back and generally end up making things worse. If I have my words written down in advance, I tend not to push quite so hard. It helps me avoid escalation.
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Post by Isabellas39 on Jun 29, 2017 15:30:35 GMT -5
I think it's quite normal to become a counter refuser after dealing with a SM for some time. I started doing that when I realized nothing was ever going to change regardless of how many times we discussed the issue. I just couldn't handle being loving to someone that I know would never love me the way I need him to.. I believe it's a way of saving one's sanity..
I believe in the straight talk method. I don't like burying my feelings, so I couldn't allow my spouse to think all is well when it's not. However, you had your reasons for why you responded that way. When you finally tell her your concerns she may act shocked because only a few weeks ago you told her all was great, and the reason for your mood had nothing to do with her.
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Post by csl on Jun 29, 2017 21:20:33 GMT -5
I also am a big fan of writing my thoughts down so nothing gets lost in an argument. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. If discussion degenerates into argument, you have your points all in front of you to keep your focus on the issue you need to deal with. In my personal experience, when I get into a heated argument over something that is important to me, I don't hold back and generally end up making things worse. If I have my words written down in advance, I tend not to push quite so hard. It helps me avoid escalation. Definitely use a written letter. However, avoid argument drift in the actual conversation. I just read about this today in the GHblog. I'm not sure of the best way to stay on target, but having something written down (in outline form? step form?) to use to keep the discussion focused on your concerns would be a good idea. Anybody have any thoughts on that? |
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Post by baza on Jun 29, 2017 21:57:24 GMT -5
This letter, and your past "many attempts" at the talk, differ in what way Brother bigbossfan ? This time, do you have the appropriate legal advice, exit strategy, support network etc all in place to back up what you say ? If you don't have these things in place, if you are NOT prepared to put the marriage on the line, then it is pretty difficult to see what is different about this time, and just as difficult to see why your outcome is likely to be any different than it has been in the past. |
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 29, 2017 22:15:14 GMT -5
I also am a big fan of writing my thoughts down so nothing gets lost in an argument. I think it's a good idea for a few reasons. If discussion degenerates into argument, you have your points all in front of you to keep your focus on the issue you need to deal with. In my personal experience, when I get into a heated argument over something that is important to me, I don't hold back and generally end up making things worse. If I have my words written down in advance, I tend not to push quite so hard. It helps me avoid escalation. Definitely use a written letter. However, avoid argument drift in the actual conversation. I just read about this today in the GHblog. I'm not sure of the best way to stay on target, but having something written down (in outline form? step form?) to use to keep the discussion focused on your concerns would be a good idea. Anybody have any thoughts on that? - I do have plenty of experience with this. But to keep it short, she WILL redirect - drift - almost automatically and before you realize it, you will believe that you are the jerk in all of this and second guessing all your previous judgments. I used listen, then offer a few words. But I finally just said, "talk all you want, I am not responding". Explaining that she had this bucket full of words and she'd take mine mix them up in there and twist things around so much I was truly confused; wondering if I even had the right to think for myself. So with the letters, yes we are much better with our points when we can place our grievances in writing. My advice on this is to write it all out. Then condense it until you are less than 2 pages. If you are incredibly focused go for 1 page. (remove too many details - no need to show off that you were wise to all of her tactics). Too many words and they can and will be used against you. Practice replies like "you just need someone you'll feel free to be intimate with". "I can't be someone else for you so you need to move on". "It's torture to live with you and avoid what is so natural and normal". Just keep on point, no blames, just that the slow death effect of her avoidance requires change right now. Like BAZA says, the why is irrelevant anyhow. You don't need to point them all out, she KNOWS the games she plays. You're just explaining with uninterrupted clarity why it is time to move on and make changes. Not a bad idea to slip off your wedding band with a single line, "By the way, I think this was meant for some one else, sorry I've held on to it so long." She'll either agree or want take off her clothes. But you will get results. Stay calm, stay in control. Know your words are true and for all her rebuttals and countering, they remain true just the same. Lastly, we, the refused, should already have untethered credit cards, etc. While she is gone, unload some stuff like you are moving anyhow. It is a great feeling knowing you could be out and free in a matter of hours if you wanted and believe me, she will feel it. Your confidence will also be significantly boosted. You will get promises of change and even some action within 3 days and the cycle will continue. It's the nature of LIASM. So take the sex thereafter but get prepared (to bust out when things go back to where they are today. |
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Post by beachguy on Jun 30, 2017 2:32:40 GMT -5
Your wife has spent over 20 years training you not to want her. She has succeeded, brilliantly. It really is as simple as that. We are not dogs. Love is perishable. Chronic refusal is a love killer.
In the meantime, what do you expect to accomplish if you give her "one last chance"? You know that for over 20 years she has given you just enough sex to keep you in the game. If you give her one more chance you will get one more reset. But nothing more than that. Any "one last chance" talk is nothing more than the ultimate form of coercion. From her perspective it is probably marital rape. And perhaps she is right. And that is why our situations are hopeless. You cannot threaten your way into your wife wanting you. And as you get further into counter-refusal land, which you will with each cycle now, the whole thing becomes quite pointless.
Your wife's text is quite disingenuous. She says "I wish you would talk to me and let me know why you are in such gloomy bad moods. Are you upset with me over something? ". But the last thing she wants to talk about is your need for sex and intimacy. You've been fighting over this for 20 years and each fight is the same. She doesn't want to talk about it, except to tell you why you are unworthy of fucking. Every attempt to talk about your needs is immediately countered with a demand to talk about ONLY her needs. Been there done that. So the proper response to her text might have been something like "you know damned well why I'm unhappy, I've been increasingly unhappy for 21 years but you have always refused to validate my needs and concerns."
If you are not willing to walk out without discussion, then the only way I can see that might possibly work is to simply refuse to talk about her needs. Because, after all, you are the one about to walk out, not her. You are the unhappy one. You would have to place the burden of maintaining the marriage squarely on her. It is her job to convince you why you shouldn't leave. And yet another counter-recitation of her needs is not going to convince you. If you can get her to get that, then you might have a fighting chance. Otherwise you are back in the hamster wheel, that 21 year endless loop you've been treading.
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