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Post by lwoetin on Mar 7, 2017 1:38:06 GMT -5
I just find treating people as you would like to be treated is a good rule of thumb for living a decent life. Unfortunately I'm great at treating knob heads too well! I am not religious. I don't have any problems with other people's beliefs though and am always happy for an open discussion. I do wonder though how science heads can truly believe in religious stories. It seems so contradictory to me? I see science for study of physical aspect, not about spiritual aspect. A cup of coffee helps me smooth over rough edges and enjoy both aspects. I see fellow scientist/engineer co-workers at church. I have Muslim co-workers. The pastor at my church was chemistry major before becoming a priest, his father a Chem professor. My past graduate advisor is Mormon, who won't do any work on Sunday. My friend was doing particle physics research at CERN before becoming a priest. The mind, soul and heart are so captivated in many ways. We're normal folks too, along with nonreligious scientists.... OK, simple answer is it takes cups of coffee. |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Mar 7, 2017 3:05:35 GMT -5
Dan & lwoetin thanks for your answers. I maybe get too hung up in religious story details. I have justified biblical tales in my head as a collection of stories to help teach people how to treat other people. I just can't grasp a bloke constructing a universe in a week. Or Adam and Eve. Or Mary's virgin pregnancy. Those things in particular just scream "bullshit" to me. Hence why I just let it wash over me and accept the morals behind the tales. I mean... do people actually believe these things to be true? I like science. I like real proof. But I also like spirituality in the sense that I feel there must be more out there. Reasons. Purposes. Connections. Mad shit we don't understand and maybe never will. So my philosophy is to try to be good, try to understand others, or at least accept they think differently. And drink coffee.... None of it really matters anyway. We'll all be dead this time next century  X
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Post by seabr33z3 on Mar 7, 2017 3:27:17 GMT -5
seabr33z3, no it doesn't apply to all questions. There are many compelling posts here. If someone asks a question involving religion, things get a bit over the top. I was really interested in people's answers to this question, but the answer got lost in their reply. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? I think perhaps what you are saying is basically that you saw no clearly defined answer or that it may have been lost in there amongst other stuff they chose to share. I honestly feel that it's because it's generally a very difficult thing to portray to someone outside that particular worldview. Perhaps you understand somewhat from what you have said about your own background and your parents. Often people view ' religion' as a set of rules. I personally never use the word religion or religious to define my stance. It's more about guidelines. I suppose the difficult thing for non believers to grasp is the concept of putting ' self' lower in the pecking order than most would do. Perhaps that's what smartkat is trying to understand. "why would you not put yourself and your own needs first?". Within Christianity ( as opposed to other belief systems) that is actually one of the most basic concepts. It seems that THAT one thing is what's puzzling smartkat. The WHY or indeed the WHY NOT. Somewhere within that thought process is the answer. One doesn't actually GET anything from it. One gives( or gives up) It's like trying to describe a television to someone from 150 years ago. They can hear all the words but not grasp it. Not because they are stupid, but because they haven't personally experienced it. Not the best analogy, sorry. I have ended up with a novel and an answer which isn't clear cut but it IS difficult to fiind adequate language to convey what she is trying to understand 😊 |
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Post by Dan on Mar 7, 2017 8:35:38 GMT -5
... I was really interested in people's answers to this question, but the answer got lost in their reply. ... ... the concept of putting 'self' lower in the pecking order than most would do. Perhaps that's what smartkat is trying to understand. "why would you not put yourself and your own needs first?". Within Christianity ... that is actually one of the most basic concepts. It seems that THAT one thing is what's puzzling smartkat. The WHY or indeed the WHY NOT. ... First, I think this exchange between rhapsodee and seabr33z3 has been very good: a respectful exchange, and I hope both are satisfied with its tone. Second, I think seabr33z3 has the nugget of THE BEST and most concise answer to the original question. I'll paraphrase her answer this way: "many people of faith consider selflessness as a spiritually enriching act." No novel required! This is NOT to say that selflessness motivates every act of every religious person. This is NOT to say religious people believe selflessness should be practiced to the point of self harm. This is NOT to say that less-devout or non-religious people are never selfless. The point is just "selflessness is usually good... and we are struggling with it in our SMs... just like non-religious folks." |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Mar 7, 2017 9:09:54 GMT -5
... the concept of putting 'self' lower in the pecking order than most would do. Perhaps that's what smartkat is trying to understand. "why would you not put yourself and your own needs first?". Within Christianity ... that is actually one of the most basic concepts. It seems that THAT one thing is what's puzzling smartkat. The WHY or indeed the WHY NOT. ... First, I think this exchange between rhapsodee and seabr33z3 has been very good: a respectful exchange, and I hope both are satisfied with its tone. Second, I think seabr33z3 has the nugget of THE BEST and most concise answer to the original question.  I'll paraphrase her answer this way: "many people of faith consider selflessness as a spiritually enriching act."  No novel required! This is NOT to say that selflessness motivates every act of every religious person.  This is NOT to say religious people believe selflessness should be practiced to the point of self harm.  This is NOT to say that less-devout or non-religious people are never selfless.  The point is just "selflessness is usually good... and we are struggling with it in our SMs... just like non-religious folks." Well summarised Dan. Thank-you. I am happy to have this discussion with Rhapsodee to further try to explain things for SK. You are right when you say that it is a struggle. It IS a struggle. Believers find that the human nature wars within against the spiritual nature. It is especially difficult for those who believe that marriage is God's blueprint for couple relationships. You are also right Dan when you say about less devout or non religious folk being selfless. Of course they are. We are all imperfect human beings in an imperfect world struggling to do what each of us believe is best for our lives. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Mar 7, 2017 9:15:53 GMT -5
Dan & lwoetin thanks for your answers. I maybe get too hung up in religious story details. I have justified biblical tales in my head as a collection of stories to help teach people how to treat other people. I just can't grasp a bloke constructing a universe in a week. Or Adam and Eve. Or Mary's virgin pregnancy. Those things in particular just scream "bullshit" to me. Hence why I just let it wash over me and accept the morals behind the tales. I mean... do people actually believe these things to be true? |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Mar 7, 2017 13:57:31 GMT -5
Wow. People believe those things actually really did happen. I'll have to process that more!
I went to a church school, Protestant Christian or Church of England. Whatever you prefer.
I was christened. I went to Sunday School. We sang hymns everyday at school and were always at the church a few paces away for one thing or another. It's beautiful btw. I'll put a pic on shortly.
I was in the church choir. I sang at weddings. I was confirmed (mainly so I could have a glug of Church Red every Sunday morning!)We had tea parties in the vicarage gardens.
The whole Shebang.
But.... never once have I thought it was real. I don't recall a moment where I questioned it. I always "knew"
It to be a bunch of good people trying to help others learn how to be good.
I stopped going mid teens. I was busy with other stuff. But never had any animosity towards it.
I did go back once aged about 20. Different vicar. I felt he was a bit brainwashy, I can't explain any better than that. But I never went back again.
Internet quizzes show me to be in the Buddhist zone, Theravada I think, in my ways and values.
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Post by solodriver on Mar 7, 2017 14:04:18 GMT -5
My struggle is finding the point where I follow the blueprint of being a good husband and being selfless, loving and forgiving her actions against me (which I'm supposed to always do, no matter the offense) and being deliberately neglected and taken advantage of because I practice those principles and she does not. She knows those principles very well but doesn't hold herself to those standards, and has an excuse why she doesn't when it's brought up to her. ("It doesn't apply because....."). Then I feel forced to do something, like counter refusing and distancing myself, which certainly doesn't help the situation and causes me more pain. If you continue on that path the outcome is either continuing to live miserably in the SM, becoming so emotionally alone that if presented with an opportunity, you break the commandment on not committing adultery, or separation and divorce, which is also discouraged in the Bible.
Sorry Rhapsodee, I probably didn't make this simple, just sharing what I believe myself and others who have a "faith background" struggle with. |
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Post by leifericson on Mar 7, 2017 14:10:27 GMT -5
Dan & lwoetin thanks for your answers. I maybe get too hung up in religious story details. I have justified biblical tales in my head as a collection of stories to help teach people how to treat other people. I just can't grasp a bloke constructing a universe in a week. Or Adam and Eve. Or Mary's virgin pregnancy. Those things in particular just scream "bullshit" to me. Hence why I just let it wash over me and accept the morals behind the tales. I mean... do people actually believe these things to be true? I like science. I like real proof. But I also like spirituality in the sense that I feel there must be more out there. Reasons. Purposes. Connections. Mad shit we don't understand and maybe never will. So my philosophy is to try to be good, try to understand others, or at least accept they think differently. And drink coffee.... None of it really matters anyway. We'll all be dead this time next century X Yes, there are many people who take the Bible as literal truth. There are also many who attempt to reconcile science and belief. How can the world be created in 6 days? I guess it depends on your definition of a day. If the Sun wasn't created until day 3, how long was a day? There are still people who believe the earth is flat and can give some very convincing arguments why they are right. To each their own as long as you aren't hurting someone else or trying to push your beliefs on me. Personally, I find some of the things people believe utterly ridiculous. |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Mar 7, 2017 14:15:15 GMT -5
Wow. People believe those things actually really did happen. I'll have to process that more! I went to a church school, Protestant Christian or Church of England. Whatever you prefer. I was christened. I went to Sunday School. We sang hymns everyday at school and were always at the church a few paces away for one thing or another. It's beautiful btw. I'll put a pic on shortly. I was in the church choir. I sang at weddings. I was confirmed (mainly so I could have a glug of Church Red every Sunday morning!)We had tea parties in the vicarage gardens. The whole Shebang. But.... never once have I thought it was real. I don't recall a moment where I questioned it. I always "knew" It to be a bunch of good people trying to help others learn how to be good. I stopped going mid teens. I was busy with other stuff. But never had any animosity towards it. I did go back once aged about 20. Different vicar. I felt he was a bit brainwashy, I can't explain any better than that. But I never went back again. Internet quizzes show me to be in the Buddhist zone, Theravada I think, in my ways and values. LOL! I'm actually astounded that there are people out there who don't know that millions of people around the world really DO believe it all, including hundreds of thousands( millions?)here in the developed western world. Some are selective, but within Christianity the basics of creationism, virgin birth(eternal God/creator being born as a human) , crucifixion & resurrection along with a worldwide flood and Jonah being swallowed by a huge fish. ( some say whale). |
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Post by csl on Mar 7, 2017 14:27:07 GMT -5
eternaloptimism - you seem to be surprised that intelligent people can believe in the tenets and teachings of the Bible. If you are open to learning about some of these, please allow me to mention just a few names for you to explore, should you be so inclined:
First, William Lane Craig, a philosopher, and Ravi Zacharias, a theologian, are frequent lecturers (together and separately) at Oxford and Cambridge, and Yale and Harvard. Craig has a podcast that discusses these matters.
N. T. Wright is a CoE theologian who is considered this generation's greatest Christian thinker and writer. His seminal work deals with the Resurrection, and there is a Wikipedia entry for him.
Os Guinness, another Christian thinker and writer, also has a Wikipedia page, and when I first read it, I was absolutely blown away by his accomplishments. Guinness was the main drafter of the Williamsburg Charter (in America) and the Global Charter of Conscience, published by the EU Parliament last year.
The last brings me to a Christian who died a few decades ago, but was universally honored by the world and whose death was truly mourned world-wide, the late Dag Hammarskjold, the UN Secretary General who died in 1961. Published posthumously, Markings, his only book, was a daily journal of his spiritual life.
None of these men could be termed Bible-thumpers, but each agreed with the tenets of the Apostle's Creed.
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Post by Pinkberry on Mar 8, 2017 0:08:50 GMT -5
... However, AC's agonizing over the religious aspects was long over by then. He did his own research and did speak to his priest and felt the divorce was legally (in Catholic terms) justified. Do you know how long they had been married and if they had children? Several years, close to a decade as I recall. Yes, they had two children. |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Mar 8, 2017 0:35:43 GMT -5
Wow. People believe those things actually really did happen. I'll have to process that more! I went to a church school, Protestant Christian or Church of England. Whatever you prefer. I was christened. I went to Sunday School. We sang hymns everyday at school and were always at the church a few paces away for one thing or another. It's beautiful btw. I'll put a pic on shortly. I was in the church choir. I sang at weddings. I was confirmed (mainly so I could have a glug of Church Red every Sunday morning!)We had tea parties in the vicarage gardens. The whole Shebang. But.... never once have I thought it was real. I don't recall a moment where I questioned it. I always "knew" It to be a bunch of good people trying to help others learn how to be good. I stopped going mid teens. I was busy with other stuff. But never had any animosity towards it. I did go back once aged about 20. Different vicar. I felt he was a bit brainwashy, I can't explain any better than that. But I never went back again. Internet quizzes show me to be in the Buddhist zone, Theravada I think, in my ways and values. LOL! I'm actually astounded that there are people out there who don't know that millions of people around the world really DO believe it all, including hundreds of thousands( millions?)here in the developed western world. Some are selective, but within Christianity the basics of creationism, virgin birth(eternal God/creator being born as a human) , crucifixion & resurrection along with a worldwide flood and Jonah being swallowed by a huge fish. ( some say whale). I'm not sure I've astounded anyone before  yes I exist ha ha. I really have have no religion in my life whatsoever. None of my friends or family are into it, my work has no religious connection, no-one in my life is into religion. I guess I think about it so little that it never occurred to me how involved other people are. Still processing |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Mar 8, 2017 0:37:04 GMT -5
eternaloptimism - you seem to be surprised that intelligent people can believe in the tenets and teachings of the Bible. If you are open to learning about some of these, please allow me to mention just a few names for you to explore, should you be so inclined: First, William Lane Craig, a philosopher, and Ravi Zacharias, a theologian, are frequent lecturers (together and separately) at Oxford and Cambridge, and Yale and Harvard. Craig has a podcast that discusses these matters. N. T. Wright is a CoE theologian who is considered this generation's greatest Christian thinker and writer. His seminal work deals with the Resurrection, and there is a Wikipedia entry for him. Os Guinness, another Christian thinker and writer, also has a Wikipedia page, and when I first read it, I was absolutely blown away by his accomplishments. Guinness was the main drafter of the Williamsburg Charter (in America) and the Global Charter of Conscience, published by the EU Parliament last year. The last brings me to a Christian who died a few decades ago, but was universally honored by the world and whose death was truly mourned world-wide, the late Dag Hammarskjold, the UN Secretary General who died in 1961. Published posthumously, Markings, his only book, was a daily journal of his spiritual life. None of these men could be termed Bible-thumpers, but each agreed with the tenets of the Apostle's Creed. Thanks CSL. I may have to make the effort at some point to expand my knowledge and horizons on this subject. |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Mar 8, 2017 1:17:00 GMT -5
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