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Post by Dan on Feb 27, 2017 9:05:11 GMT -5
Imagine if no one ever told you that there was a god? If no one ever told me about science... there would still be the laws of science. This is a very personal reflection: I believe that "science" is our best, current description of "nature"... a.k.a. "physical reality". It is not perfect. Science is updated constantly... and in most of the updates, it gets a bit closer to nature. Not all science is accurate. Scientists have held all sorts of beliefs over the ages. Some right, some wrong. Some -- in retrospect -- REALLY wrong. Some beliefs were downright deplorable! But I don't disparage all of science for these individual human failings. I believe that "religion" -- like science -- is an attempt to describe "spiritual reality", which -- to my eyes -- is "obvious". But while I 100% believe in a spiritual reality (which includes what is commonly called "God"), and I'm comfortable with my current spiritual path, I do not believe it is 100% accurate. In fact, I believe religion is updated over the ages, too... and in most of the updates, it gets a bit closer to spiritual reality. Not all religion is accurate. People professing religion have held all sorts of beliefs over the ages. Some right, some wrong. Some -- in retrospect -- REALLY wrong. Some beliefs were downright deplorable! But I don't disparage all of religion for these individual human failings. In both cases -- science and religion -- the measure of "accuracy" is intimately intertwined with "how fruitful is it for humankind". Systems of science that lead to beneficial advances for humankind are, IMO, "more accurate". Systems of religious belief that lead to beneficial advances for humankind are, IMO, "more accurate". I use the SAME yardstick to assess both! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 27, 2017 11:27:32 GMT -5
Disclaimer - I ain't religious, but funnily enough, my sense of ethics is actually pretty closely allied with religion. What will tend to get up my nose are posts that might prefix what someone has to say with - "As a Christian, I - - - - - - - -". Or - "The bible says that - - - - - - - -" As if being a christian gives added credibility to the opinion being given. It doesn't give the opinion any greater value than the opinion of the average Joe. (I ought add that it doesn't devalue the opinion being given either). So spare me prefixing what you've got to say with - "As a christian - - - - - " Whatever you have to say stands up - or falls - on its' own feet. Whether you are a christian, an atheist, or just a plain old shit kicker. Just an explanation(IMO) as to why some people start with " as a Christian I..." or " the Bible says...". If one makes a statement about something which is founded on biblical principles, for example, " God created the earth in 7 days". If you just come out in any conversation and make that statement, you will undoubtedly get a barage of opinions to refute that. If you say " the Bible says( as opposed to "I say") that God created..." then what you are doing is merely pointing to where you get that belief from. You may still face the barage, but the oposer will understand WHY you made the statement and WHERE you got your opinion from( the 7 days scenario is just one example of many that could be used)" The bible says" prefix is more about helping others understand YOUR position, rather than just coming off with the statement as a stand alone comment. Because Christian (or any) beliefs are often intrinsically interconnected with how one lives one's life or forms one's opinion. The same also applies to " as a Christian I believe...". It's about helping others understand WHY one has that opinion. It's not about being holier than thou or good ole " Bible bashing".IMO Where things get over complicated, and difficult is the attitude and close mindedness to "the bible says", or quoting one line of scripture. Someone who does that should be open and happy to discuss the teaching that comes with it, and how to use it in your everyday life, not just to glorify themselves. (my MIL is known for that). Personally I have learned to ask, "what is the verses before it and after it? Who said it? Where was it being said? what were the customs and laws of that time? How is it helpful, useful, and relevant to me? Are there other verses that back it up? I always find it helpful and useful to hear others understandings of "what the bible says" (including scores of other words of wisdom, many can be found in the bible) in how it affects them there personal stories, and how they can benefit from it and benefit others. Whatever helps me to be a cheerful giver, and not have my giving personality taken advantage of. |
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Post by csl on Feb 27, 2017 12:29:30 GMT -5
I know you're not paraphrasing God. You're sweetly telling Christians to "shut the fuck up and move on."
Did someone die and make you ILIASM God?
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Post by ModCasper on Feb 27, 2017 16:45:20 GMT -5
I know you're not paraphrasing God. You're sweetly telling Christians to "shut the fuck up and move on." Did someone die and make you ILIASM God? Easy. This has been a very civil discussion so far. Let's keep it that way. |
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Post by wewbwb on Feb 27, 2017 17:50:49 GMT -5
Since no one asked, I'll chime in once again.
I once read a book that used this parable to describe religion and God.
Imagine we are bees flying around a church.
We each look through a stained glass window and get an idea of what's happening.
How accurate would our philosophy be?
(Yes, I'm aware of the blind men and the elephant this is a better description because bees are not rational beings.)
So if there is a God, and he gave us all the information we needed, would we understand it?
Because honestly I can completely envision a God that says " 'be nice to other people' seems to be too difficult for these asshats, they want more?"
(Fyi, Buddhists doctrine states that if science finds a conflict with its philosophy, the philosophy must adopt to the science.)
So I believe that there is a large difference between the dogma of a religion and it's goals.
But I could be wrong.
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Post by baza on Feb 27, 2017 20:36:38 GMT -5
If someone makes a comment / suggestion in here that makes good common sense, I don't give a rats arse if they are a Satanist or a Saint.
But - and I stand to be corrected by any of you theologists out there - my understanding of Christianity is that the apple in the garden of Eden was actually the gift of free will / choice.
The Lord effectively saying - "here's the resources, here's your gift of choice. That's all you need. Now get on with it".
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Post by csl on Feb 27, 2017 22:38:32 GMT -5
I know you're not paraphrasing God. You're sweetly telling Christians to "shut the fuck up and move on." Did someone die and make you ILIASM God? Easy. This has been a very civil discussion so far. Let's keep it that way. I concur. Civil is good. Civil is nice. But would you please enlighten me on how telling religious folk to "shut the fuck up and move on" fits the definition of civility? |
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Post by Rhapsodee on Feb 28, 2017 3:36:10 GMT -5
Great question!
This is just my unique opinion.
It's a control issue.
We want to punish those that hurt us. We want to be rewarded for being good. We want control. We cannot control anyone but ourselves, so we have the God. The God will punish that person and reward us for our suffering. This gives a feeling of control.
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Post by seabr33z3 on Feb 28, 2017 4:28:09 GMT -5
If someone makes a comment / suggestion in here that makes good common sense, I don't give a rats arse if they are a Satanist or a Saint. But - and I stand to be corrected by any of you theologists out there - my understanding of Christianity is that the apple in the garden of Eden was actually the gift of free will / choice. The Lord effectively saying - "here's the resources, here's your gift / obligation of free will / choice. That's all you need. Now get on with it". Not quite, in regard to " here's the gift get on with it". Summary of Eden story. God creates universe. God creates man(plural). God places them in a special, perfect( for them) garden. They already have free will. Within the garden are two trees. One is the tree of life. One is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God says " don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Don't even touch it or you will die". It's a warning from God to protect them, not a threat. We aren't told what fruit it is, but due to its allure, it's unlikely to be an apple tree. Eve is tempted, coerces Adam who follows suit. Immediately their innocence is gone. Nakedness appears to them to be wrong, but it's not, as that was how God intended. This is called " The Fall". In biblical terms, Adam has now got an inheritable condition which will be passed by birth to all of mankind. They are banished from Eden in case they eat from the Tree of Life and live forever in their now sinful state. Sin being defined as disobeying God. Death.. Biblically speaking...is ' simply' separation from God. If anyone is still with me, God then provided an antedote. He came to earth as a man.( fully God and fully man) and died and was raised to life, thus having power over death. When we die, we are not going to be eternally separated from God based on a list of what we have or haven't done. People think that God has a big set of scales and weighs up our good deeds verses our bad, but that is theologically incorrect. It will be based on what we did with God's free gift of salvation through Jesus Christ. Individual sins will also be judged after that. We can't understand the mind of God. We wonder how he can't just zap evil away. We don't know about the nature or origins of evil. I would imagine that if there was any other way, God would have used it. The cross and resurrection were clearly a necessary part of God's overall plan. Hello?.. Anyone still here?...hellooo( to empty room) |
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Post by seabr33z3 on Feb 28, 2017 5:35:02 GMT -5
Just an explanation(IMO) as to why some people start with " as a Christian I..." or " the Bible says...". If one makes a statement about something which is founded on biblical principles, for example, " God created the earth in 7 days". If you just come out in any conversation and make that statement, you will undoubtedly get a barage of opinions to refute that. If you say " the Bible says( as opposed to "I say") that God created..." then what you are doing is merely pointing to where you get that belief from. You may still face the barage, but the oposer will understand WHY you made the statement and WHERE you got your opinion from( the 7 days scenario is just one example of many that could be used)" The bible says" prefix is more about helping others understand YOUR position, rather than just coming off with the statement as a stand alone comment. Because Christian (or any) beliefs are often intrinsically interconnected with how one lives one's life or forms one's opinion. The same also applies to " as a Christian I believe...". It's about helping others understand WHY one has that opinion. It's not about being holier than thou or good ole " Bible bashing".IMO Where things get over complicated, and difficult is the attitude and close mindedness to "the bible says", or quoting one line of scripture. Someone who does that should be open and happy to discuss the teaching that comes with it, and how to use it in your everyday life, not just to glorify themselves. (my MIL is known for that). Personally I have learned to ask, "what is the verses before it and after it? Who said it? Where was it being said? what were the customs and laws of that time? How is it helpful, useful, and relevant to me? Are there other verses that back it up? I always find it helpful and useful to hear others understandings of "what the bible says" (including scores of other words of wisdom, many can be found in the bible) in how it affects them there personal stories, and how they can benefit from it and benefit others. Whatever helps me to be a cheerful giver, and not have my giving personality taken advantage of. Absolutely! The verses before and after any one verse are vital to the context, as are the audience to whom each portion of scripture is addressed. |
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Post by snowman12345 on Feb 28, 2017 6:33:06 GMT -5
I am a strong believer in Karma - that which you put into this world is what you get back. I think it is one reason I have a grandson who has odorous gas issues (aw, just like grandpa!).
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Post by ModCasper on Feb 28, 2017 8:37:27 GMT -5
It's simple if you faith rules your life shut up and move on "for better or worse" .... I hate people of faith who need to cherry pick and ignore other parts of the Bible to get their point across. Be the husband or wife your supposed to be... end of story and if your here to defend your marital position then your a shitty Christian .... for better or for worse .... so shut the fuck up and move on Hey @thecelt: the OP asked folks of faith why they put themselves through difficult times putting up with stuff. There have been many thoughtful replies, folks explaining the role of their personal faith in their personal decisions. I don't feel this thread -- or this forum, frankly -- is an appropriate place to vent about certain people of faith who rub you the wrong way. Please comment on what you will about what others here have actually posted; please save your broad-brush brickbats for other venues. |
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Post by Pinkberry on Feb 28, 2017 19:34:39 GMT -5
My recollection is that it was AC's missus who initiated the divorce Sister Pinkberry . And I don't think she agonised over the religious aspects of the deal at all in making that call. AnarChristian / RonMcDong sure did though. I believe you are right on the initiation. He felt it was ethical to tell her he wanted a divorce and she felt it was in her best financial interest to get to a lawyer first. However, AC's agonizing over the religious aspects was long over by then. He did his own research and did speak to his priest and felt the divorce was legally (in Catholic terms) justified. His ex agonized over nothing, but was vengeful in her behavior because AC dared ask for a divorce. She, as described by AC, was rather self-righteous in all things. Of course, I don't know her at all and only met AC once, so I can't independently verify how the marriage and divorce went down. My point was only about the religious aspects not being the barrier that many feel they are. |
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Post by baza on Feb 28, 2017 19:49:08 GMT -5
You're right as I recall Sister PinkberryBy the time he had processed all his angst and was on the cusp of pulling the pin, his missus (who I don't know at all either) pre-empted him and got in first. I am pretty sure it was a 'no fault' jurisdiction, so it likely made no difference to the split of assets/custody. But it must be harder still to unravel an ILIASM deal when you have matters of faith loaded on top of an already awful situation. |
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Post by lwoetin on Mar 1, 2017 0:03:23 GMT -5
... However, AC's agonizing over the religious aspects was long over by then. He did his own research and did speak to his priest and felt the divorce was legally (in Catholic terms) justified. Do you know how long they had been married and if they had children? |
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