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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:06:49 GMT -5
....from an admittedly non-religious person.
There are a number of people who cite religious convictions as a reason to stay married to a refuser, and not outsource.
I think I understand (but correct me if I'm wrong... )You have a belief in a higher power who will punish you in some way if you disobey the rules. That's not too different from me, obeying my employer's rules. Because if I disobey my employer, I lose the job - and the paycheck. I like the paycheck, so I obey my employer's rules.
What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules?
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Post by csl on Feb 22, 2017 14:36:59 GMT -5
....from an admittedly non-religious person. There are a number of people who cite religious convictions as a reason to stay married to a refuser, and not outsource. I think I understand (but correct me if I'm wrong... )You have a belief in a higher power who will punish you in some way if you disobey the rules. That's not too different from me, obeying my employer's rules. Because if I disobey my employer, I lose the job - and the paycheck. I like the paycheck, so I obey my employer's rules. What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules? I know it is popular to attempt to portray faith as either a quid pro quo relationship (I do this for God, He blesses me) or a relationship of fear (God's got a great big bat and is just waiting to hit you with it). Sorry, but neither of them are the relationship of faith. While there is a small element of truth in both (yes, I believe God does and has blessed me, and yes, I do not want to sin), but it's on a par with the six blind men who went to learn about an elephant and argued over what they had learned. He does bless, but as Jesus said, He sends his rain on the just and the unjust. Google Joni Earickson Tada, in a wheelchair since '67. She writes that even though she is a quadriplegic, she is blessed and joyful. She sees God's blessing in her life. Yes, God does hate sin (we believe). 'Cause He's a prig? No, because it is unnatural and harmful. Just how thrilled would you be to see your kid doing drugs, being puking drunk, becoming a gangbanger, etc.? If you would hate the damage that those things and more would cause, is it hard to believe that God hates it when His children engage in the same things? As to our desire not to sin? Well, if you love someone, do you go out of your way to offend them, or do you do the things that make the relationship cook? Finally, as to the marriage ethos - yes, I would say that marriage, as an institution, is held in higher regard than most. The reasons are several, such as believing that God created marriage, teaching that marriage is to be held in high regard, and divorce isn't a light thing to be done for any reason. (Some believe that there is only one valid reason for divorce, others things four). This last, one reason vs. four reasons, goes a long way to explaining the conviction to stay with a refuser, btw. The most common teaching in the past has been "for adultery only", and is a misunderstanding of the context. However, more and more, other reasons are being seen as valid reasons for divorce, which are considered violations of the marriage covenant/contract/vow/agreement (you choose your favorite term).
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 14:41:59 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what you get out of the religion, that makes it worth giving up sex. (I'm not trying to be offensive....I honestly don't get it.)
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 22, 2017 14:45:27 GMT -5
My religion, (the bible) gives me guide lines. Story after story about all the problems that will come if I treat another person as a mere sex object. Something to use and discard. I am not only harming that person but also doing harm to myself. That there will always be that need that God instilled in us to be desired, needed, respected and cherished by someone else. Sex only is a band aid approach, similar to a false idol. A quick fix with repercussions.
Where churches/religion fail miserably, is to tell people, "sex is bad, sex is evil. Get married,and the only reason for ending your marriage is if one partner cheats on another, end of story." (a very brief description, and my opinion)
Months and months of continually digging into the bible (reading it for myself) gives me many scriptures that back ending a loveless, sexless marriage. That burden, excess baggage is now lightened.
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Post by csl on Feb 22, 2017 14:51:54 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what you get out of the religion, that makes it worth giving up sex. (I'm not trying to be offensive....I honestly don't get it.) Jesus. God. Forgiveness. Relationship and connection outside ourselves. Inner peace. All these "things" and more are bound up in Paul's statement to the Roman church about God living in us: The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father."(Abba, btw, has the connotation of familiarity, as in Poppa.) (and, no, no choruses of "Dancing Queen", please!)
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Post by johnwyo1 on Feb 22, 2017 14:53:22 GMT -5
For me, it is my love for my saviour, Jesus Christ, who gave his life for me that makes me want to be a better person. Out of my love and appreciation to God, I choose to understand and follow His will for my life. As my Creator, he knows what the original purpose and context that he designed and intended for sex. Following that purpose and plan is sometimes a sacrifice, yes, but not following it is actually damaging to me and whomever I use for satisfying my sexual human nature.
I am always striving to love other people better, to love like he loves. If I have sex outside of God's will, purpose, and context then I am not being loving and instead am causing damage. No more would I want to hurt another person by eating because I'm hungry than by satisfying my need to orgasm.
It's not about giving up sex. I'm keeping hope for having it in an appropriate context, which is really best for me in the end. I have outlets for the merely physical, but I also crave the spiritual side and pray for it
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 22, 2017 14:57:04 GMT -5
I'm still not sure what you get out of the religion, that makes it worth giving up sex. (I'm not trying to be offensive....I honestly don't get it.) Giving up sex, if that's all it is, is just sex. Religion does teach you that sex is more than that. ie not just getting drunk and getting laid every night by a different person. The problem comes in tying it into marriage and family, and looking bad in the church/religions eyes by ending it due to the giving up of sex. The bible gives you the importance of sex and intimacy, the church/religion falls short.
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Post by Dan on Feb 22, 2017 15:06:51 GMT -5
....from an admittedly non-religious person. There are a number of people who cite religious convictions as a reason to stay married to a refuser, and not outsource. I think I understand (but correct me if I'm wrong... )You have a belief in a higher power who will punish you in some way if you disobey the rules. That's not too different from me, obeying my employer's rules. Because if I disobey my employer, I lose the job - and the paycheck. I like the paycheck, so I obey my employer's rules. What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules? I think this is an excellent question! My explanation starts with a re-tread of the traditional "God will punish you if you disobey." I rather don't think it works that way. Instead, let me use an analogy. Let's say my physician says "don't drink gasoline, it will most likely damage your internal organs". But someday I decide to give it at try... and I end up with internal bleeding and stomach ulcers. Did my physician himself punish me by giving me the ulcers? Nope. The physician was warning me -- even teaching me -- of a likely cause and effect. That is the light in which I believe religious teaching should generally be held as truths. Pick a commandment: does God Himself actively punish everyone who lies? steals? adulterers themselves? Well, admittedly, not directly and not immediately. But many/most of the world's religions say these are bad because they lead -- in more cases than not -- to spiritual harm of the person who does these, and in many cases social harm to the family or community nearby. Let me use a positive example: if you exercise, does your doctor himself add to your muscle mass? No: his exhortation to exercise is merely him teaching us "this is how physiology works". Religious teachings are full of positive, affirming things to do (not just a list of don'ts). Love one another, be kind be generous, and -- yes -- be patient. If we exercise these things, we accumulate a spiritual benefit. Not that God puts a coin in some heavenly bank for us, but rather, it is just the way things work, spiritually. Now there are always, always shades of grey. Most religious traditions don't talk about that much... but there are always ethically relative situations. What if I steal to feed my starving family? What if I stretch the truth (lie) to be allowed to export relief supplies to a earthquake ravaged Haiti? This -- IMO -- is where faith is REALLY tested... to navigate the grey areas. In fact, I feel that the God-given purpose human experience is to learn to exercise our God-given free will to the best of our ability... as THAT is exactly what "spiritual growth" is. IMO, God gave us free will AND rules AND tests and tribulations so that we could grow (spiritually). Without those three things, we could not grow. We all seem to be dealt a different hand: intelligence, ability, parental wealth, race, opportunity... all these things out of our control. To the extent "God judges us", I believe he is looking at how we played the hand we were dealt. Is there a right answer to "what should a God-fearing person do when faced with a sexless marriage"? I dunno. I do struggle with what *I* should do. I will not take it upon myself to judge others on how they decide. Fortunately, I don't have to... because that's God's job, not mine.
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Post by bballgirl on Feb 22, 2017 15:11:33 GMT -5
Salvation
Btw I'm not religious either but I do believe in God.
My FWB is atheist and I enjoy talking about religion with him.
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Post by rejected101 on Feb 22, 2017 15:11:56 GMT -5
....from an admittedly non-religious person. There are a number of people who cite religious convictions as a reason to stay married to a refuser, and not outsource. I think I understand (but correct me if I'm wrong... )You have a belief in a higher power who will punish you in some way if you disobey the rules. That's not too different from me, obeying my employer's rules. Because if I disobey my employer, I lose the job - and the paycheck. I like the paycheck, so I obey my employer's rules. What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules? I'm not religious but I think you'll find that the bible frowns upon divorce but equally frowns upon a wife or husband not putting out (although it's not worded in such a way). The general principles that some religions go by are actually very very good. Essentially, don't cheat, don't walk out on marriage easily and ensure you make yourself available to your spouse as your body is theirs and theirs is yours and be kind to everyone.
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Post by Dan on Feb 22, 2017 15:31:13 GMT -5
....from an admittedly non-religious person. There are a number of people who cite religious convictions as a reason to stay married to a refuser, and not outsource. I think I understand (but correct me if I'm wrong... )You have a belief in a higher power who will punish you in some way if you disobey the rules. That's not too different from me, obeying my employer's rules. Because if I disobey my employer, I lose the job - and the paycheck. I like the paycheck, so I obey my employer's rules. What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules? I really appreciate the question. I think it is an excellent question! My explanation starts with a re-tread of the traditional "God will punish you if you disobey." I rather don't think it works that way. Instead, let me use an analogy. Let's say my physician says "don't drink gasoline, it will most likely damage your internal organs". But someday I decide to give it at try... and I end up with internal bleeding and stomach ulcers. Did my physician himself punish me by giving me the ulcers? Nope. The physician was warning me -- even teaching me -- of a likely cause and effect. ... OK, I got a bit side tracked laying my "philosophical underpinning for why someone should attempt to follow the precepts of any given religion." With that said, let me try to answer @smartkat 's question directly: "what do you get out of it?" Well, at some point, my physician gained my trust, so I no longer drink gasoline. He also says: exercise, lose-weight, don't smoke, eat lots of leafy greens. I'm inclined to trust him that he is right. Now I CAN pick and choose. And skipping any ONE of those probably won't kill me, at least not right away. But he previously earned my trust, and any of those that I can follow will probably be better for me. Or so I trust. What do I get out of it? Better physical health. (As long as I've trusted a trustworthy physician.) What do I get out of following the precepts of my religion? Better spiritual health. (Or so I trust. In the case of religion, this kind of trust is often called faith.) Are there sometimes when the doctor's orders actually CAUSE pain? Yep. Sometimes, on the surface, there are minor contradictions; "if working out is supposed to make me healthier, why do my knees hurt so bad when I do?" Or consider chemotherapy: it is basically POISON. (It is a poison that just happens to kill cancer cells slightly faster than it kill the rest of us.) But we trust that there are reasons that the physician is prescribing these things... even when uncomfortable... or downright debilitating. So, to those of us who trust in some specific religious teaching, if it says "long term, faithful marriage is good for you and good for the family and good for the community"... we might try VERY HARD to live by that. We are trying to live by that despite the fact that it is causing SOME pain (like the sore knees or chemo-side-effects)... because we believe there are benefits, even if not immediately perceived. The Divine Physician has prescribed this "medicine" for some reason... And we endeavor to follow it because there is a prior earned trust. But in the world of medicine we know that not all medicine suits all cases... and sometimes the side-effects are NOT worth the benefit. Or maybe the cure is not even in the cards! Those of us who are religious AND stuck in sexless marriage are struggling with HOW LONG do we trust "marriage is good" and endure the SM side-effects... or throw in the towel, and say "well, THIS marriage is not good like it was supposed to be." We just might allow ourselves to throw in that towel when we finally believe it is for our own spiritual benefit, and possibly also a benefit for the rest of our family, and maybe even our community. That, at least, is the journey I'm on.
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Post by Dan on Feb 22, 2017 16:20:52 GMT -5
What is your religion giving you that makes it worth it to obey the anti-sex rules? I keep coming back to this thread... and finding yet more to comment on. This time, it is asking Kat for a clarification. What do you mean by "anti-sex rules"? Are you talking about: - "no premarital sex" rules?
- "no extramarital sex" rules?
- "no homosexual sex" rules?
- "no wild and crazy kinky sex" rules?
- or:
- "don't divorce, marriage is forever" rules? (which IS and "anti-sex" rule if your spouse doesn't want sex...)
I took your question to be about the last of those, and that was the basis of my prior replies.
(FWIW: most religious are "pro-sex"... as long as sex is between a married heterosexual couple.)
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Post by hopingforachange on Feb 22, 2017 16:58:59 GMT -5
Unfortunately, most Christian churches fail in saying sex/intimacy within marriage is good and get stuck in the purity push.
Try reading song of Solomon. There are a few verses that you will make you look back at the cover to make sure you are still reading the Bible.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 18:45:44 GMT -5
Salvation Btw I'm not religious either but I do believe in God. My FWB is atheist and I enjoy talking about religion with him. You're like me, then. I do believe there is a god, but I've never found any religion I can really deal with. So, I'm neither a religious person nor an atheist, which makes me feel weird. And, I have to say.....I'd rather have a good sex life than salvation. Again, not trying to offend anybody....just telling my own truth.
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Post by csl on Feb 22, 2017 18:52:33 GMT -5
Salvation Btw I'm not religious either but I do believe in God. My FWB is atheist and I enjoy talking about religion with him. You're like me, then. I do believe there is a god, but I've never found any religion I can really deal with. So, I'm neither a religious person nor an atheist, which makes me feel weird. And, I have to say.....I'd rather have a good sex life than salvation. Again, not trying to offend anybody....just telling my own truth. They are not mutually exclusive. Recently, two of my blogging friends joined with two other bloggers and started a podcast, Sexchat 4 Wives (four wives, get it?) Four Christian women/wives, four sex bloggers/writers, telling women that sex is not only great, but okay for Christian women.
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