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Post by cagedtiger on Jan 23, 2017 16:24:40 GMT -5
"I think we should separate." "I think you're wrong."
And this started the most difficult conversation my wife and I have ever had.
My therapist and I had talked at length about what I should talk about, what I should say, and more importantly what I should avoid saying, what her possible reactions were likely to be, and probable next steps.
What's the old military saying about the best battle plans never survive contact with the enemy?
I tried to stick to my carefully written ant rehearsed script as she interrupted over and over again,
"This isn't right. You can't leave. You have to stay here with me. This isn't you. This isn't your best self. The Tiger I know wouldn't leave."
Three and a half hours this went on, her begging me to stay, me repeating over and over again that I couldn't stay, that it was only making things worse for me if I stayed. Even telling her about the panic attack I'd suffered last week just from the thought of going home and seeing her. That was met with her telling me she had the same things happening, because she never knew what she was getting when I came home. I pointed out that since it had only gotten worse, it wasn't fair for me to stay. That launched another round of "but you have to stay here with me."
My therapist had suggested I try to frame the idea of separation as one of a trial period, for us to both work on our own issues, then potentially revisit in a few months and see if anything had changed, mostly to lessen the initial blow to her. She argued that wouldn't help anything (the same argument she made the first four or five times I asked her to go to couples counseling with me). We have an already scheduled appointment with our counselor in a couple days, which I'm hoping will give her time to get a bit more clarity and perspective. I'm seeing my therapist in the morning to start figuring out next steps and damage control.
As I finally got up and started through clothes into a suitcase, she started getting angry, warning me that I was crossing a "point of no return" with her friends and family if I left. Then came the name calling, which I'm ok with. Finally, she gave me one last parting comment as I got ready to leave.
"I know drop down you still love me, and that you're going to come around and come back home. I know that. In the meantime, I'll just fight hard enough for the both of us."
She asked me where I was staying- I told her which friend I was staying with, and while I was packing, he texted me and told me that she'd sent him a message, asking him to remind me of "how awesome she is."
That was Saturday afternoon and evening. I feel bad, but only really for hurting her feelings. I feel sad that I obviously chose so incredibly poorly when it came to a wife, and that this marriage that probably should never have happened is going to be ending.
And I miss the dogs. Holy crap do I miss them. Her, not so much- it's been a very, very long time since I've really missed her. But the dogs, definitely.
She called my mom after I left, because she wanted to try and start figuring out what has to be so obviously wrong with me, and I had lunch with my dad yesterday- he'd listened in on the call, but he mostly just wanted to hear my side of things, and offer some insights from both of his marriages and also from my younger childhood. He gave me a lot of things to think about, but honestly they were a lot of things that served to really remind me of why I stayed with her all the times I really should have left instead.
I still feel like I'm doing the right thing, but it doesn't make it suck any less right now.
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Post by wom360 on Jan 23, 2017 16:32:17 GMT -5
You're on the right path Tiger. Don't let her ever tell you different. Frankly I'm kind of surprised she didn't try to keep you with sex.
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Post by cagedtiger on Jan 23, 2017 16:41:39 GMT -5
You're on the right path Tiger. Don't let her ever tell you different. Frankly I'm kind of surprised she didn't try to keep you with sex. I am too. I think if she'd convinced me to stay that night, she would have tried.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 23, 2017 16:53:52 GMT -5
Brother, on today of all days, I can say this sincerely.... I feel your pain.
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Post by baza on Jan 23, 2017 17:25:46 GMT -5
You've done your bit in this process so far Brother CT. - So far, she has stuck to the predictable refuser script too (tho' I would have had my money on a burst of re-set sex or at least the offer thereof) - Sometime in the next few days I reckon you can bank on an approach from her where she'll pile the pressure on again using everything she can think of to stop this runaway train. Up to and including threats of self harm, and anything at all she figures might work. "Emptying the gun" at you in other words. - Keep your helmet and seat belt on mate. This is going to be a very rough bit of track for the next few kilometres.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 23, 2017 17:33:02 GMT -5
Having sex with her would have been the biggest mistake of your life. I'm sorry to hear what you had to go through but everything you said is screaming why you need to do this.
I know you are giving only highlights of the "discussion" but I don't see where she even considered the idea that she should change something in order to keep you. No consideration at all for your needs. It was all about her needs. And this might sound strange but I have a strong sense that she is objectifying you. You are an object, a possession, that she is losing. Something she wants, even if only for sentimental value. This wasn't about your needs or her failings as a wife, it was all about her desires. And it seems that she could not even articulate why she wants you, why you should stay. Other than... just because.
She has kept you in a marriage so far by simple force of will. With no regard for your needs, only her needs. The fact that that no longer works is simply devastating for her. Some of her histrionics, perhaps she could not help. But at least some of it is basic emotional blackmail. And she's throwing everything at it. First "you simply cannot leave". That doesn't work, so now let's throw down "the point of no return" card. That threat doesn't work, so let's call your friend and enlist his help to get you back (after you crossed that point of no return). And as backup, let's do the nuclear option and enlist your father in the fight. As an aside I hope your Dad realizes your deal just may be a might bit different than his deals.
You might want to talk to your couples counselor ahead of time about her fears of abandonment because you might not want to be fully open about her issues in front her. And finally, now you know why a lot of people intuitively understand why they want to do this via a written letter. I'm not saying the end result is any better, just that you aren't alone.
Stay strong, my friend. And if you decide that you can't take the pressure and return, understand that it will be twice as difficult to ever do this again. And if you return, remember that she promised you nothing, absolutely nothing. And she will learn that emotional blackmail really works.
A friend of mine recently attempted to leave her husband, and managed to do it for a couple weeks or so. First, he showed up, unannounced, at 4am, pounding on her door. That didn't work so he went home (a 3-4 hour drive). Then he comes back, a few days later, waiting for her, and late at night accosts her on the 20th floor open common walkway to her apartment when she returned from dinner. He's a big guy, and she was physically afraid of him. He could have physically thrown her over the railing. Not saying he would have but to convey it was a scary experience for her. She calls 911, the cops stake out the building for 3 hours, suggesting they took it very seriously. He escaped home.
A few days later he suffers "an emotional breakdown" and apparently has his kid call 911. He is ambulanced to the hospital. Of course she comes flying home. In the hospital she presents him with her list of grievances, the reasons she left. He ignores them. (sound familiar?). She takes him home the next day (miraculous recovery and all). He enlists his mother and their kids to all gang up on her and demand she stay. The whole family is a bunch of narcissists, 3 generations in her house, (emotionally) beating her into submission. In preparation for her separation she had bought a new phone that she controlled, fearing he would have access to her texts and other communications if she used her old phone, part of a joint account that he controlled. It was at that point that the phone went dead, and my texts checking on her safety were never delivered. She'll never get out now. She's a prisoner in her own home, with no private access to the outside world. And this is an upper middle class couple, not what you might think.
This is all just to say that these things can get ugly. That guy has a lot in common with your wife, in terms of the emotional blackmail he used, and his total unwillingness to address or even acknowledge her needs. And his total psycho-ness. Because that was not the point of what he wanted, whatever it is that he wants. Well, I know what he wants. He wants her there, regardless of her feelings about the matter. Her mistake was letting him drag her back home with that very thinly veiled emotional blackmail scheme. She may never get out, but she really needs to.
(I may have told you this story before, but it bears repeating now)
ETA: I didn't see Baz's comment until I posted. Yes, I was thinking about the self harm thing too. Standard emotional blackmail. Which is why I wrote that little non-fictional novel.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jan 23, 2017 18:02:44 GMT -5
I like the way Mike Tyson put it, "you have a plan for the fight right up to the point where you get punched in the face". I count myself one of the more fortunate people to have experienced the unfortunate reality of a SM. It didn't last all that long and it ended amicably. When my X knew I was really done there were no hysterics or threats or name calling. There was some crying on both our parts for what could have been. But we parted as friends and have remained so. Recent post about maintaining a friendship with a former spouse have yielded a # or responses where that was the case. Perhaps time will make that possible for you if that is what you want. Right now it reads as if your W is in a state of denial. She believes if she only wishes hard enough and believes strong enough things will return to the place they have been for so long. Over the years I have seen that scenario played out on more than one occasion. Well done on your follow through in making the announcement on Saturday. History here tells us not everyone does. Clearly you had a plan put together for the hard work such an announcement entails and clearly you worked your plan. With any luck the 3 and 1/2 hr. meltdown exhausted most of the emotion on her part and in your next conversation with her you 2 will be able to discuss the future resolution and mechanics of the divorce. You have taken a huge leap of faith, I wish you well my friend. PS, If you are ever near Troutman give me a holler, we'll have a beer and some good Bar-B-Q.
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Post by thebaffledking on Jan 23, 2017 18:08:09 GMT -5
Rushing out to work, but just wanted to put in a word CT -- proud of you, man, and I hope you are proud of your strength in taking action on your own behalf.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 23, 2017 18:08:39 GMT -5
You know I'm pulling for you, and very glad for you! I am also concerned about you going back, mainly to get the dogs. She's not going to take care of them. Hope you've got that worked out, soon. Don't let her use it as a weapon.
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Post by solodriver on Jan 23, 2017 18:16:13 GMT -5
You're on the right path Tiger. Don't let her ever tell you different. Frankly I'm kind of surprised she didn't try to keep you with sex. I am too. I think if she'd convinced me to stay that night, she would have tried. That should tell you something, that she wouldn't even think or try to lure you back with sex. It shows were she places sex on her list. Wow!
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Post by rejected101 on Jan 23, 2017 18:37:23 GMT -5
TRUE MEANINGS IN CAPITALS
This isn't right. - FOR ME THIS ISN'T RIGHT You can't leave. - IT WOULD BE BEST FOR ME IF YOU STAY You have to stay here with me. - I DEMAND YOU STAY AND USUALLY YOU DO AS I SAY This isn't you. - WHERE IS THE TOOTHLESS TIGER I LIKE DOMINATING This isn't your best self - I WILL NOW USE BLACKMAIL TO TRICK YOU IN TO THINKING YOU'RE A NASTY PERSON The Tiger I know wouldn't leave." - PLEASE BE A GOOD TIGER AND STAY SO I CAN CONTINUE TO PAT YOU ON THE HEAD.
You have balls of steal tiger. You now have the upper hand to go and pursue the life you want. Good for you
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Post by cagedtiger on Jan 23, 2017 19:40:12 GMT -5
I am too. I think if she'd convinced me to stay that night, she would have tried. That should tell you something, that she wouldn't even think or try to lure you back with sex. It shows were she places sex on her list. Wow!
The same day she told me she hadn't refilled her birth control prescription that sex was off the table for her anyway, because she "didn't feel sufficiently loved." True story. When we started dating, she wouldn't have sex with me until I was ready to tell her, "I love you." Red flags to pay attention to for next time.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 23, 2017 19:46:01 GMT -5
That should tell you something, that she wouldn't even think or try to lure you back with sex. It shows were she places sex on her list. Wow!
The same day she told me she hadn't refilled her birth control prescription that sex was off the table for her anyway, because she "didn't feel sufficiently loved." True story. When we started dating, she wouldn't have sex with me until I was ready to tell her, "I love you." Red flags to pay attention to for next time. Between this crowd we have a veritable flag factory! We should write a book.
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Post by baza on Jan 23, 2017 19:53:27 GMT -5
Yep. At some point in the future, when you are ready Brother CT (and that time is not now probably), it would be a good idea to conduct a full autopsy on wtf happened. Like what baggage you may have had that played a role in you getting hooked up with her in the first place. Like what additional baggage the exposure to your ILIASM deal added on to your load.
As you say, "next time" is critical, and at your age, a "next time" is just about a lay down certainty.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 23, 2017 19:54:15 GMT -5
The same day she told me she hadn't refilled her birth control prescription that sex was off the table for her anyway, because she "didn't feel sufficiently loved." True story. When we started dating, she wouldn't have sex with me until I was ready to tell her, "I love you." Red flags to pay attention to for next time. Reminds me of something I still think about from time to time. If I said to my wife "let's fuck" she would have been incensed and yelled at me. She would have been severely offended. Ok, maybe that's a bit crude for her sensibilities. But if I said "let's have sex" she still would have gotten angry at me and said something like "It's not sex, it's making love" If I said "Let's make love" she would not have gotten angry, she just would most likely say no... ETA: since she took me home and fucked my brains out on the first date, after meeting her once in a bar, there couldn't have been much "love" involved the first time. But somewhere between then and the wedding day...
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