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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 18, 2017 17:26:06 GMT -5
sunniedays Let me ask you this: You won't have sex with your husband. This is utterly repellant to you and you just don't want to do it. But - since sex IS part of marriage - why do YOU choose to stay with HIM? That's one thing I never understand about refusers. If we're so ugly, fat, smelly, stupid, boring, or whatever that you just can't stand to have sex with us - if we're that terrible - why don't the refusers "just leave"? THIS ^^^ is a tipping point! This covers all the bases. Not just sex, but all the other parts of marriage as well. Why don't you leave? Even for a month, on a trial bases? My wife pulled this on me. After a re-set weekend. There were strings attached with her demand, things she couldn't handle (or refused to try) by herself. I turned it right around and said, "NO!! you leave, we,(the entire family) will do just fine without you, you've been gone for weeks at a time on business, gone on weekends. As long as that check goes in the bank, we do just fine, you leave. "Did either one of us leave? NO. (plenty of other details, including legal ramifications) Sure was an eye opener, a tipping point. leading to the divorce. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2017 18:13:00 GMT -5
But I for one generally don't hang out and talk a lot in places where I'm outnumbered by people on the opposite side of some issue. You may have a higher tolerance for arguing and aggravation than I do. I don't actually think Sunny is on the opposite side of the issue. Half the questions on this board are "What is my spouse thinking?" While at the same time, using terminology that frames the subject in a way that entirely prevents understanding of the spouse's perspective. Understanding a perspective that isn't yours is not the same thing as agreeing with it. Understanding a perspective can be helpful in determining what one's options are, or the likelihood of the results from various approaches. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 18:16:32 GMT -5
Well fuck me in the ass! I never bloody realised you are a refuser sunniedays That's shown me up for not reading back stories. I see why the attitude now. You're quite the mature one, I see. Call me whatever name you'd like. We don't know one another, so the fact that you refer to me in a derogatory manner really merely reflects the lovely person you must be. I am sorry for you and your partner. It's sad that you're so unhappy. I may be a "refuser" in your mind. Think what you want. All that matters to me is I have a husband of 26 years who loves me and doesn't refer to me by a demeaning name. Yes, I "refused" him. But we worked out our problems over time. At least he didn't stay with me for years and years, secretly calling me names to anonymous people, yet refusing to do something to make himself happy. Because he's a grown ass man, Not a 12-year-old. I'm also quite sure that even if he had chosen to leave, he wouldn't feel the need to refer to me by a negative name. Yes, call me what you want. I'll be the "refuser" with the attitude AND the happy marriage and a husband who respects me. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 18:23:47 GMT -5
This is an outlet and a place where "the refused", "the rejected", "the celibate" feel safe to vent anonymously. When I came to it, I didn't necessarily want to vent or feel safe. I wanted to solve my problem, and I wanted advice and experience from others who had a similar problem. Nothing safe about that. "Abuse"! How would one characterize demanding sex from someone who doesn't want it with you? Suppose there is a site somewhere like this one, in which our spouses gather to discuss their "sex-persistents" or "perverts". The term just is used for ease of use to describe their spouses who constantly pester them for sex, instead of sharing in more important priorities. Would the term, which is only for ease of use, promote the kind of introspection and self-agency that would be effective in achieving their goals? Suppose there was a site somewhere in which a spouse would gather with others to discuss their unhappy marriage in terms of "my pervert" did this. Or "my pervert" always wants this? I can't think of any "self-help" site that assigns a name to their spouse in describing the behavior of that spouse. Are there any? |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 18:33:29 GMT -5
Sunniedays I can see why you get offended at the term 'refuser', and I can see why people use it. It reflects the hurt in the situation, and mostly the hurt on the non-refuser's side comes at least as much from our partner's refusal to empathise or make any effort to compromise as refusing sex. That's about a lack of caring, and that's why it hurts. You're not refusing either of those things, and it must hurt when you're lumped in with people who are. This kind of situation is why I push back against ILIASM's shibboleth that the 'why' doesn't matter. It does. There are people who can't do anything about their lack of libido, but would if they could. There are people who could at least try, but clearly don't give enough of a shit. Those two things spill over into the rest of the relationship in very different ways, generally reflecting the reasons behind the lack of libido. 'Why' does matter, for the wider relationship and therefore to decisions about staying or going. My wife's said a lot of the things you've mentioned and is in a similar position - a medical condition plus menopause nuking her libido, and she hates that it causes me pain, but in the end, has no idea what to do about it. In her case, there's something aspergerish going on as well when it comes to emotional connection. But at least one poster isn't seething with resentment (well, not any more) and convinced that all partners who don't want to have sex are evil, manipulative and selfish. I agree. It just seems to me an enormous waste of energy to complain endlessly about something that's lacking, which is so important to a person, to the point of resentment where you would refer to the person you loved in a demeaning manner. I am absolutely not overlooking the fact that one partner is perhaps not behaving in a caring, loving manner. No excuse ever for a person to treat the person they love in disrespectful, selfish ways. But is the solution to "vent" by ranting about them, assigning a less-than-loving name? Then everyone is being disrespectful. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 18:36:51 GMT -5
I would ask politely once or twice a year if we could have sex tonight, he said maybe then nothing or we laid in bed and I'd grab his hand and put it on me and he said leave me alone I'm trying to sleep. I share that experience and pain. I also, in the years without, experimented with asking once or twice across a period of 5 months, and STILL was characterized by my wife at the time to our counselor and to me as insatiable. So, with respect to the words we use and how they denote narratives that pin us to our own lack of agency, evidence suggests that she would post on this board's equivalent - I Live With An Insatiable Spouse. She would refer to me as her "Pesterer" and the board of like-minded people would use such code and language to frame the discussion within those brackets. Discussions would be fixed on "How do I get my spouse to stop bothering me about sex?" and support would entail shaming spouses for unreasonable and unwanted demands, even staking the marriage and children on it. Each example is wrong and hurtful. What's the point? You're either trying to repair a problem or you're not. "How do I get my spouse to stop bothering me about sex?" You get a different spouse. or don't get one at all. It's just wrong. Either way. I don't understand why people who love each other or loved each other at one time, would WANT to behave in this manner. |
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Post by Lithium92 on Jan 18, 2017 18:44:45 GMT -5
Sunniedays
Venting isn't a solution to the problem, it's just necessary for our sanity. Personally, any venting I do here is instead of doing it to my wife so the communication I have with her is more constructive. To that extent it does actually mitigate the situation.
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Post by lyn on Jan 18, 2017 18:50:41 GMT -5
I share that experience and pain. I also, in the years without, experimented with asking once or twice across a period of 5 months, and STILL was characterized by my wife at the time to our counselor and to me as insatiable. So, with respect to the words we use and how they denote narratives that pin us to our own lack of agency, evidence suggests that she would post on this board's equivalent - I Live With An Insatiable Spouse. She would refer to me as her "Pesterer" and the board of like-minded people would use such code and language to frame the discussion within those brackets. Discussions would be fixed on "How do I get my spouse to stop bothering me about sex?" and support would entail shaming spouses for unreasonable and unwanted demands, even staking the marriage and children on it. Each example is wrong and hurtful. What's the point? You're either trying to repair a problem or you're not. "How do I get my spouse to stop bothering me about sex?" You get a different spouse. or don't get one at all. It's just wrong. Either way. I don't understand why people who love each other or loved each other at one time, would WANT to behave in this manner. Respectfully, you've made your point numerous times. At some point, I suspect, it will begin to look like trolling to some. Not that it really matters, I'm just making an observation. Fwiw, I think the collective SEEMS to fully understand your point of view at this point. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 18, 2017 18:52:11 GMT -5
When I say "refuser" I mean it with no ill or demeaning intent. A person who teaches I call a teacher. A person who fights fires I call a fire fighter. A person who gardens is a gardner. A person who takes photos is a photographer. A person who robs someone is a robber. AND A person who refuses to have sex is a refuser. sunniedays I really see your story different than a lot of us on here due to your medical history. You had a good sex life for many years with your husband. You have a loving relationship as well. Honestly for a lot of us the issue isn't sex or lack of it in the present day, it's about the lack of sex that started on the honeymoon and the emotional toll it took on our confidence and self esteem. If my own husband doesn't want me who will? How do I get a divorce the first year? I'm embarrassed by the fact that my own husband doesn't want sex with me. It's such a horrible torturous existence where the one person that is supposed to love you is intimate with you but they won't. And why do we stay? For a long time because we love them until one day we don't anymore. Again the term refuser is not meant to be mean it's just a word. If I was going to be mean I would have called him a broke dick asshole but I didn't do that about my husband. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 18:55:33 GMT -5
sunniedays , for a person who doesn't want to offend anybody, you are awfully offended about one little word that doesn't even contain a curse word or an insult. And regarding your statement that we "choose" to stay: Yes, many people do choose to stay for varying lengths of time. Maybe we still love the person, we take their reasons for refusing seriously, and we want to stick around and try to change that situation, so that we can be happy again. I was in that group for a long time. Or, maybe we have sunk a lot into the relationship, by having children together, mingled finances, etc. Or, maybe because we live in a culture that's run by people who think sex is dirty/unimportant/etc., it's very difficult for people to leave a relationship that looks pretty good on the outside - where the problems happen behind closed doors. We're afraid of the social disapproval we would get for breaking up with someone over "only" sex. Let me ask you this: You won't have sex with your husband. This is utterly repellant to you and you just don't want to do it. But - since sex IS part of marriage - why do YOU choose to stay with HIM? That's one thing I never understand about refusers. If we're so ugly, fat, smelly, stupid, boring, or whatever that you just can't stand to have sex with us - if we're that terrible - why don't the refusers "just leave"? As to your last question, I don't know why someone would stay with someone who they didn't find attractive -- or any one of the other adjectives you propose. I can only say that those are no where near the reasons why I don't want to have sex. Sometimes it doesn't have anything to do with those reasons. And if it does, then I can't imagine a reason why either spouse would stay with the other. I believe some people stay for periods of time because they want to change their situation. Absolutely. But in my opinion, trying to work through problems while simultaneously referring to your loved one as a "refuser" seems counter-productive. We live in a culture that's run by people who think sex is dirty? Who the F cares? We've only got this one life. Who cares what anyone thinks? It's YOUR happiness. Sex is not utterly repellent to me. My husband and I have been having sex for over 33 years. I'm not disgusted by sex at all. I just don't physically have a libido, due to medical issues and age. I CHOOSE to stay with him because I love him. We have an awesome life. We have wonderful history together. We have grown children. We enjoy each others' company all the time. We RESPECT each other. We see that we have a future together. There were a couple of difficult years recently. We figured out what we wanted. What we knew we would be happy with. My husband has a right to leave me. We discussed that. He can leave me if I don't want to have sex with him, just as easily as he can leave me for not having dinner on the table every night. Doesn't matter. If he's unhappy and I can't make him happy, he absolutely can leave. As can I. Yes, sex is a part of marriage. Which is why we had sex for 33 years. But shit happens. So WE had to CHOOSE what was most important to us. To US. Which is what we did. To me, in my opinion, it just seems you're either trying to resolve a problem or you're not. And calling names does't seem to benefit an already unhappy situation. Especially between to people who "love" each other. |
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Post by sunniedays on Jan 18, 2017 19:00:17 GMT -5
When I say "refuser" I mean it with no ill or demeaning intent. A person who teaches I call a teacher. A person who fights fires I call a fire fighter. A person who gardens is a gardner. A person who takes photos is a photographer. A person who robs someone is a robber. AND A person who refuses to have sex is a refuser. sunniedays I really see your story different than a lot of us on here due to your medical history. You had a good sex life for many years with your husband. You have a loving relationship as well. Honestly for a lot of us the issue isn't sex or lack of it in the present day, it's about the lack of sex that started on the honeymoon and the emotional toll it took on our confidence and self esteem. If my own husband doesn't want me who will? How do I get a divorce the first year? I'm embarrassed by the fact that my own husband doesn't want sex with me. It's such a horrible torturous existence where the one person that is supposed to love you is intimate with you but they won't. And why do we stay? For a long time because we love them until one day we don't anymore. Again the term refuser is not meant to be mean it's just a word. If I was going to be mean I would have called him a broke dick asshole but I didn't do that about my husband. LOL that made me laugh! Your examples are reasonable. It just seems that "refuser" as used here is mostly used in a not-so-nice, just-being-descriptive way. It may start out as just a description, but doesn't seem like it's used in a complimentary fashion - MOST of the time. Not always, maybe. |
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Post by unmatched on Jan 18, 2017 19:53:20 GMT -5
Well fuck me in the ass! I never bloody realised you are a refuser sunniedays That's shown me up for not reading back stories. I see why the attitude now. You're quite the mature one, I see. Call me whatever name you'd like. We don't know one another, so the fact that you refer to me in a derogatory manner really merely reflects the lovely person you must be. I am sorry for you and your partner. It's sad that you're so unhappy. I may be a "refuser" in your mind. Think what you want. All that matters to me is I have a husband of 26 years who loves me and doesn't refer to me by a demeaning name. Yes, I "refused" him. But we worked out our problems over time. At least he didn't stay with me for years and years, secretly calling me names to anonymous people, yet refusing to do something to make himself happy. Because he's a grown ass man, Not a 12-year-old. I'm also quite sure that even if he had chosen to leave, he wouldn't feel the need to refer to me by a negative name. Yes, call me what you want. I'll be the "refuser" with the attitude AND the happy marriage and a husband who respects me. I have to admit that you and Apocrypha have a point - using a word like 'refuser' tends to put people in a box and makes it harder to empathise with them and understand where they are coming from. And it probably serves to polarise your thinking even more and make the marriage more toxic than it was already. BUT ... you also seem to be suggesting that there is a very straightforward solution - if you are not happy in your marriage just leave. And while it may be that black and white in concept, in practice it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. Firstly most people here have been in their relationships for a long time, they have their hearts entirely wrapped up in their partner, not to mention their lives/homes/kids/friends/families etc. And often they really don't WANT to leave, but at the same time they are desperately unhappy with the way things are. So there is a process of coming to terms with the truth, of perhaps trying to disengage their hearts without them being completely broken in the process, and then come to terms with what it might mean for their hopes and their dreams and the rest of their lives. It is an emotional and psychological maelstrom. And if part of that process requires getting angry, or painting people blacker than they are, or throwing labels around, personally I think it is good not to judge too harshly. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2017 20:10:10 GMT -5
BUT ... you also seem to be suggesting that there is a very straightforward solution - if you are not happy in your marriage just leave. And while it may be that black and white in concept, in practice it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. [snipped] , please don't explain to me how or why leaving a marriage is an incredibly difficult thing to do. You don't need to do that. I realize you don't know me yet, but I can assure you, as much as I'm writing from my Bird's Nest divorce arrangement with my ex visiting my kids upstairs, that I am well acquainted with the difficulty and stakes. I don't "seem" to be suggesting any straightforward solution at all. I have not proposed a solution whatsoever. What I have done is encouraged people to be authentic in their thinking about desire, and to apply the same reasoning to it in their marriage that they would apply to other intimate relationships - their own and others. What I have done is suggest a straightforward answer to what the problem is, and knowing it intuitively -- you have inferred the answer, which is to - as you say "just leave" if you want to have a chance at a romantic partnership that includes sexual expression. You can chase your tail about why desire for you has left your partner, but the payload of those questions is the hope that if you just do whatever the thing is, that desire will spring from the grave. If you are locked into a longterm deal, your partner has no desire, and either no clue, or no priority to discuss and an effective remedy for the problem, then what do you have? I'm not going to tell anyone to leave their marriage. Why would anyone do what I say? But I can share my experience and insights into the consequences and results for every approach I took in dealing with it. And then they can make an informed decision. |
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Post by unmatched on Jan 18, 2017 20:13:58 GMT -5
BUT ... you also seem to be suggesting that there is a very straightforward solution - if you are not happy in your marriage just leave. And while it may be that black and white in concept, in practice it is an incredibly difficult thing to do. [snipped] , please don't explain to me how or why leaving a marriage is an incredibly difficult thing to do. You don't need to do that. I realize you don't know me yet, but I can assure you, as much as I'm writing from my Bird's Nest divorce arrangement with my ex visiting my kids upstairs, that I am well acquainted with the difficulty and stakes. I don't "seem" to be suggesting any straightforward solution at all. I have not proposed a solution whatsoever. What I have done is encouraged people to be authentic in their thinking about desire, and to apply the same reasoning to it in their marriage that they would apply to other intimate relationships - their own and others. What I have done is suggest a straightforward answer to what the problem is, and knowing it intuitively -- you have inferred the answer, which is to - as you say "just leave" if you want to have a chance at a romantic partnership that includes sexual expression. I remember your story quite well from EP, and please know that I wasn't talking to you when I said that. The second paragraph of what I wrote was a response to sunniedays. I just tagged you in on the first bit because I wanted to say that I agreed with you about the word refuser not necessarily being helpful. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 18, 2017 22:33:57 GMT -5
I honestly don't think I've used the term refuser, much at all. In fact I've started using the words giver and taker.
We are all refusers every moment of our living days, if you want to get technical. I "refuse" to die by breathing. I "refuse" to go hungry by eating. There are things we refuse to think about, participate in, be associated with. It's quiet a lengthy list. For the significant amount of damage that occurs in a SM, the word "refuser" is quiet mild, almost polite.
You ,sunniedays, called your husband a "GROWN ASS MAN"? That's vulgarity, profanity, derogatory, demoralizing, disrespectful, childish, immature, obnoxious, offensive, inflammatory, rude etc... most of all it makes you out to be a hypocrite who has double standards.
All that, from three words!.
Fortunately I don't judge people like that. God and Jesus used lepers, prostitutes, murderers, thieves, etc... to do the lords work. And hung out with tax collectors, fishermen, carpenters, etc.....
I also learned in my life experiences that foul mouthed truckers, and loading dock workers,and mechanics, are some of the most giving, caring, understanding, cheerful, intelligent, people on the planet.
Compared to so many well spoken, well dressed, wealthy, church going, highly saught after, esteemed in society,prideful, people who will knock you down with a door, and keep right on going. Complain that you are in their seat, manipulate you and take advantage of your good nature.
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