So unsure...

I echo joy6016 's question.  (Actually, I kind of already did in this post.)

I'll summarize my question to JMX (which may or may not be a summary of Joy's, too):  It seems that, at some point, the heart of the refused spouse will pass a point of no return: the pattern of "counter refusal" (I'll simply NOT ASK for sex because of my belief it will just lead to rejection again) becomes set in stone.  At that point, no amount of earnest reversal by the [original] refuser will work to save the marriage.  OK, I get that.  I see it has happened to many... and it may well describe me at this time, too.

But (to JMX ... or anyone) do you fundamentally believe this phenomenon is gender-specific?

I don't see that it is.  And, really, I'm not trying to argue the point; I'm just earnestly interested if you think only women reach this point of no return -- which is how I took your original post.

And that, Joy, is the $64 Million question.  Why did this start so early in the relationship and what caused it?  I think I have said before that the secret lies in the earliest days of sexlessness.  Everything that has transpired since then is just a complicated mess you can never unravel.

When I had sex arguments with my STBX she always wanted to talk about the recent past, or something I said in passing 10 years ago (which would have been 10-20 years into the sexlessness).  What she never wanted to talk about was our sexless honeymoon, the sexlessness that started the day after the wedding.  I finally, after 30 years, forced her to talk about that, and I refused to talk about all the water that went over that dam in the succeeding decades.  She could not handle that discussion.  She refused to face whatever deep dark secret she has.

You've made various comments suggesting that you are starting to feel "weird" about having sex with him again.  That is the early (or perhaps middle) stages of counter-refusal.  Where it is becoming increasingly difficult for YOU to see him in a sexual way.  Those negative feelings will only intensify over time.  I'm not sure how any couple could overcome all that, considering that it all started with his fundamental inability to have sex with you from the earliest days of the relationship.

And I am convinced it was never "an easily fixable issue".  If it was, he would have fixed it.   He would have responded to your early cries for affection.  If it were easily fixed it would have been fixed in short order.

Okay, that makes sense. So once I lose interest, and once he has stopped being sexual, it can't come back.  Right?

Exactly.  If he lost interest in a sexual relationship early on, when you were HOT HOT HOT for him, how can he possibly get it back once you've lost all interest?  And if A Miracles Occurs, and he suddenly gets some mojo that apparently he has never really had, what should he do with it when you are totally or mostly disinterested?  And you are headed, quickly, in that direction.

If he did get some mojo, it would not likely come on like a hurricane.  He would carefully stick his toe in the water to test you.  He's got all sorts of insecurities going on here, not just due to his own sexual problems but with your increasingly negative attitude.  If you've lost interest, him sticking his little toe in the water is not going to excite you.  There will never be any critical mass to get something going.  He will make a feeble try, come up against your new brick wall, and give up.  This is why the counter-refusal stage is so devastating.

You may not be fully in the counter-refusing stage yet, but it is obvious from your discussion here that you are heading there quickly, and 5-6 years of this is more than enough time.  In the meantime, it does not seem likely that he is going to get his mojo back this week, or next week.  If he had a miraculous recovery tomorrow you might, might, be able to work with it.  But how about another year or two or three from now?

That is truly a bunch of manipulative BS.  Yes, it is backward, it is totally illogical, but that is part of the manipulation.  Of course he doesn't want to discuss the past.  Because he cannot reconcile his past behavior with his empty promises of an "easy fix".  He cannot reconcile the almost immediate refusing to his empty promises of a fix and vague psychobabble about what he "feels".   His descriptions of his feelings are acknowledging that he has never and will never want you sexually.   Please Google "gas lighting".  You are being so gas lighted here.

A word of caution:  I previously mentioned that when I *FORCED* my STBX to focus on the past it did not go well and it ended worse.  In retrospect it was a huge mistake to try to take her there.  It would have been better just to leave without trying to get any sort of validation for my decision (which was the point of taking her back in the past).  He has already refused to talk about the past.  If you try to force the issue, be prepared for some serious drama.  

" He thinks that we just stopped doing it as much, I felt rejected, and he said he didn't want to perpetuate the thing that made me feel rejected, which in his mind = sex. Well no, it's the LACK of sex that caused my rejection. It seems kind of backwards in his mind..."

I just suggested that was a bunch of manipulative gas lighting BS. Let's be more charitable. Let's say he is being perfectly honest. If THAT was his response to your neglect, do you have any hope whatsoever that he gets anything well enough to fix this?

You said you feel like you are BOTH failures. Much of what he has said to you is an effort (a manipulation) to get you to at least share in HIS failure. Because it is most likely he is the one (and only one) with a sexual problem, not you. Ironically, your biggest failure was likely not terminating a hopeless situation before even marrying him. Like his other GF's managed to do. And I think you previously said that you either temporarily broke up prior to the marriage or at least had some serious fights? If I'm correct on that, you cannot solve that type of failure by staying in the marriage. You can only solve it by doing what should have been done long, long ago. And believe me, I am equally guilty of this. I spent 30 years trying to live with my mistake. And I knew it was a mistake halfway through the honeymoon.

No, I do not think you should force him to talk about the past, *AND* I think you should just leave.  However, the worst thing you could do is to stay in the marriage, trying to make it work, without forcing that discussion.  But if you force the discussion you may get some very unwanted and very serious drama.  Which is why I think you should just leave.  This is a no win situation.  


By refusing to discuss the past, he is leading you down a path that cannot result in any serious progress.  Or understanding of the core problem.  It is pure avoidance on his part.