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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2016 16:24:24 GMT -5
joy6016, I will not bother to repeat what others have said - just re-read the whole thread, if you want my take on the matter. I can relate to your situation, mainly because my refuser (I now realize) dumped responsibility for finding a solution in my lap. He would make a half-hearted start at the proposed solutions, but none of it ever lasted. It hurt that he didn't want to do anything about it. But if I am to be honest with myself - what else can I believe?
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 21:56:36 GMT -5
Thanks, eternaloptimism <3 I am struggling with feeling that we are mismatched. I still have feelings that he is a good match for me. What started out as "perfect" was our friendship plus a very strong physical connection. At this point, we get along well, he gets me, he knows my moods/personality, we have similar humor, views on life, people, etc. It's hard to feel like so much of your connection is so right, yet the other part is so terribly wrong.  Hello joy6016 , I have spent 21 years trying to fix, ignore, deny, blame myself, etc... because my wife and I get along, and have similar views... besides sex. I understand exactly what you are saying that so much of your connection works. We have children now and we parent well together. She isn't a bad person and neither am I. But she is supposed to be the ONE PERSON on this earth who meets this ONE PART that I need, and to not be able to even try to meet my needs is TERRIBLY WRONG! This means we are not compatible. Everything else can be right, but this one part is a need, its not a want, its not an option. It is not a feeling that will go away over time. It will gradually intensify and it will become MORE. It will drain your soul. I will be posting a story soon about meeting a woman who, I have fallen madly in love with. She makes me so happy and smile so brightly. I realize now that what I thought was acceptable/tolerable isn't. Please, you have a chance to save yourself from the despair and pain we have endured. You deserve to be loved how you need to be loved. Thank you for your message, RexCorvus. I appreciate hearing your story! I'm really glad that you've found someone who makes you really happy - you deserve it after what you went through.  I completely agree with what you said in the beginning - that your spouse is the ONE person that you're allowed to be sexual with and it's just not happening. I feel like my husband does make me smile, laugh, have fun, etc., but that part is missing and it stings. Majorly. We had somewhat of a breakthrough this weekend, but whether it was a breakthrough or just another talk remains to be seen. Your words definitely spoke to me though, as it's how I've felt for so many years. It really isn't an option to have a sexual relationship with your spouse (barring illness, etc.), so as I've mentioned before, it's either fix or I go. I can't hang on like this forever. It does drain the soul. |
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 21:58:47 GMT -5
joy6016 , I will not bother to repeat what others have said - just re-read the whole thread, if you want my take on the matter. I can relate to your situation, mainly because my refuser (I now realize) dumped responsibility for finding a solution in my lap. He would make a half-hearted start at the proposed solutions, but none of it ever lasted. It hurt that he didn't want to do anything about it. But if I am to be honest with myself - what else can I believe? I can relate, smartkat. And thank you for responding! It stinks to be able to relate to you, but I'm glad there are others out there to talk through this. I agree that it gets put on us, at least ultimately. He tends to deal with things internally, so that's hard too. I'm not sure if it's really "working" on things internally, or just kind of an excuse to not put in the work with me. He knows this is very serious, so we'll see what really happens versus what's talked about in the 1-2 days after a major breakdown/talk. I think it erodes trust, which he was surprised to hear. Why wouldn't it? You say one thing and do (or in this case, don't do) another. After hearing that over and over, why would I believe it? It's like the boy who cried wolf. You just stop believing it. |
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 22:11:26 GMT -5
I wish I understood why I stayed, to the extent I could explain it in a couple sentences. But it went something like this... 1. On our first date, my STBX took me back to her place and fucked my brains out. And unfortunately, that was the woman I later thought I was marrying. What a fool I was... 2. Somewhere between there and my sexless honeymoon things changed. Things went very slowly and gradually downhill until the wedding. And crashed the day after. The day after. Not a year later, not a month later. Now, it's hard to back out of a wedding because your down to twice a week and you'd like 4 times a week. It's very hard to come back from a honeymoon and file for divorce because you didn't get laid. Very Jerry Springer and this was 10 years before Jerry. It's very hard to file a month after the wedding because you didn't get laid last week. Or the week before. About 90 days in I had a looong talk with my father and he convinced me that I wanted a divorce. I left that talk walking on cloud nine because a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. But for some reason I chickened out. I continued to mull it over, and by the 7 month point I had fairly made my mind up because it had been 6 months of once a month sex. And every month reinforced that this was not just some "adjustment to marriage" or some such thing (and I need to mention here that this was her 2nd marriage but my first). Then one night I was sitting at the kitchen table mulling over how to tell her I wanted a divorce when she announced the happy news that she was pregnant. Now... it's really hard to divorce a pregnant wife It's equally hard to divorce a wife who just gave birth. Would it be better after the child is 6 months old? Is it ok now? No? Well, when is the right time to do this? Do you see where this is going? So I stayed for the kids, I guess. And I adjusted to my misery. There can be happiness in misery. The problem is, each time I adjusted to my celibate life I ratcheted down another level. Every time I thought I hit bottom, I found the hole in the basement just got 10 feet deeper. Remember what I said about not extrapolating your misery index over the distant future? Why I stayed 10 years after the kids were gone I'll never understand myself so I sure can't explain it to you.... but I can tell you the last 10 years were the most damaging. Back to your deal, Joy... If my history is right, there have been a total of 4 claimed successes or partial successes here and in the predecessor EP forum. Two are here now. One of those is really too new to claim victory, at this point it is more of a respite until it stands the test of time, and it was an unusual deal... they had 19 good years of sex, followed by only 3 bad years (not your deal at all). The other appears to be at best some sort of compromise, in terms of frequency and real interest (but that is me reading in between the lines although he says almost as much). Maybe a couple other claimed successes but I'm not sure any of them stuck around long enough to say they stood the test of time, however long that needs to be. The important point is that in each of those rare cases, the refuser was female. And I'm not sure if any of them were sexless from the very beginning of the marriage, which I consider a very different deal than something that went bad 5-10-20 years in. As far as I know not one claim of even vague success has been claimed by a female here with a male refuser. Cases of women coming back are extremely rare, looking at maybe 4 even temporary successes out of thousands of people coming through the two forums. But men- unheard of. And if my history is wrong I want to be corrected on that. Guys just don't come back. Your guy was never there. A couple months of sex before the marriage does not count. I'm not sure why but it doesn't. This forum is loaded with stories like mine where the wedding day was toxic for any future sex life. I don't have to understand it, I just know it is so. You want to be 100% sure. You can never be 100% sure of anything. You could go out today and buy one Powerball lottery ticket and be a $100 millionaire tomorrow night. But I would not bet the rest of your life on those odds. If the experience of this and the predecessor forum has any meaning at all, your chances of your H coming around is as close to zero as anything in life. Did he really tell you "he has a huge sex drive"  ? And he did this with a straight face? Are you serious? If it were me I would have had to respond with "you managed to fuck me 5 times last year, what exactly are you doing with this huge sex drive? I'm sorry, to say that to you is simply disrespectful. He may be your best friend but that is what it is, hugely disrespectful. He is hiding a deep dark secret. He may not be gay, but if he isn't, it is surely something very equally unfixable, and something he will never disclose, but I already told you that. Geez beachguy - thanks for the sermon this morning. Holy shit - you and DryCreek just took me to church. Long thread, made longer by mua. This advice you have given a young woman without the attachment of children... well, damn. I am a little jealous of her position. Oh to be you, lovely joy6016 . This sermon deserves it's own entire thread or to be marked for newbies as REQUIRED reading. It is simply amazing. It is THE most succinct (even while lengthy) dictionary of advice I have ever read regarding Sexless Marriage - and particularly for females, even though it was not necessarily meant as such. Joy - all have given you great advice. I totally get the "wait and see" approach. I have been stuck in "wait and see" 12 of my 15 year relationship. In July, I went to my second appointment with my third lawyer in about 3 years of being here or on EP. I was done. However, my doneness had "degrees" I found. Currently, I have found I am a well done steak, stuck on broil, almost at consistency of hockey puck. It took forever, but I feel I have finally shifted to counter-refusal. I am still sexually frustrated and I cried just this morning about it - not about him not wanting me, about the frustration. And I will not outsource. I can't. It's been 5 months since the reset stopped and 6 since I tapped the brakes on the divorce. It's been 2 weeks since our last counseling appointment when he said every time we had sex, I always had to say: "we should do that more often" and how he didn't like that. I giggled and said "who can blame me? I usually cannot help myself after it's been three months." Counseling is stupid. I love the counselor, but he gave us an Esther Perez worksheet with racey questions that made ME blush, I cannot imagine my "sexually kindergarten" husband answering any of those questions - I mean, really. It's laughable. It's been 1 day since my youngest's little friend was talking about her dad, got a misty expression, and through her sweet, 7 year-old-missing-teeth mouth, mused that weekends were better when her parents were together and all the things she and her daddy did together. A tear rolled down her cheek. We were having fun just before - no idea where it came from. My heart broke. Why do I say any of this? Well, youth and time. You have it. As much as I KNOW you will do this in your own time (I certainly have been taking my time) - I wish you wouldn't. I wish for you a lovely life. I wish for you a NORMAL life. I wish for you no children with this mind-fuck of a husband - if only so you don't have to consider that maybe future daughter will be sad at the thought of not having his special pancakes every weekend. I wish for this to be a strong memory - a chapter in your personal history book of a lesson learned with a bullet dodged. Welcome, sweet Joy! We can be harsh, but we care. I see a lot of my husband in how you describe yours. I also see myself (painfully) in your responses on the learning end of this. I agree that it's incredible! The words and help of everyone on here...just no words. I can relate to you on the "wait and see" and levels of doneness. I think the past few weeks have reached another level, and should we get here again, it will likely end. It was incredibly close to ending this weekend, and he honestly gave me the out in a way. He said he would take the blame. Ugh, it's really hard to leave that. It's really impossible to leave without feeling like I gave it one last try at the level of seriousness that he KNOWS I'm going. And I do, truly, believe that I got that to him this time. Beyond that, it's up to him and us to make it work. There have been changes, but we all know better than to count that for anything yet. I will be very cautiously optimistic over the next few weeks. Then, if things are status quo shortly, I'll have an answer. Ugh, I'm so sorry about the counseling session and your child's friend. I think counseling can be helpful, but I'm not sure for this issue. It helps to discuss it, but that's about it, and I can't afford to pay to talk about this on a frequent basis. I need to see this worksheet! I always thought my husband was always sexually kindergarten, but he claims he's not. We'll see in a few weeks... Just heartbreaking with what your youngest's friend said. I'm sure having kids would make this 100x harder. Thank you for wanting better for me. I want better for me too, but it's hard to think there's better than him. I know that sounds SO stupid and naive, but I do have to think about my relationship separate from this space, and again, I know I still have a little bit more work to do before I ultimately decide. We certainly aren't out of the woods, and I do NOT plan to have kids within the relationship as-is. I won't, can't and refuse. It's not an option. I think it's really hard to separate the "harsh" words (although much-appreciated!) about him from him being a good person. Can't he be both? I almost feel defensive of him when people make a lot of comments that hurt. And again, they are HELPFUL and I really do like the perspective; it's just a natural reaction to someone you love. I have much to figure out still and the next few weeks/months will be very illuminating. Thank you again for sharing with me. <3 |
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 22:18:53 GMT -5
Yeah, I see what you're saying here. I don't really know what his libido is one way or another, that's the problem. But the "You must do _____...." makes sense, because in my case, it's the discussion/anger/walls that he claims is causing it. I'm not sure therapy would be helpful. It seems like we can talk about things and get to the core of issues when we do talk, but it still never fixes the sexlessness. I think the key points here are whether a) he recognizes his role in the dynamic, and b) wants to change. Not "is willing to change", but *wants* to change. If you have to prod him in the least to be motivated, the prospect of a turnaround is nil. This seems to be the major differentiator for the <1% of cases that turn around - the refusing spouse has a "lightbulb moment" and is motivated to genuine change in their attitude toward intimacy. Buyer beware: most of the time this reaction is lip service, motivated not by desire for a deeper relationship, but instead by a fear of losing their current comfortable lifestyle (perhaps because of the financial, social, or just household chores impact). Words are cheap - their *sustained* actions will show if they are sincere. Their actions reflect their true priorities, and it'll be apparent whether their intent has any staying power. Being self-motivated is key to both the longevity, and also the sincerity of the experience (I.e., not duty sex) - which is why threatening divorce as a motivator doesn't work. It's an excellent thing if you have good communication; even better if you can have a discussion about sex without him getting uneasy - that's usually the challenge. It takes a level of trust / comfort to talk openly about sex, and I think when one is disinterested or inadequate they feel disadvantaged / threatened by the conversation - especially if truthful sharing is likely to show that there's a gross mismatch. For this dialog, it might require the intervention of a therapist to guide the discussion - it adds to the awkwardness, but can remove some of the defensiveness by feeling there's a mediator. The pitfalls in therapy (particularly individual therapy where you can't counter his misrepresentation of facts) is when other factors are allowed to become scapegoats, which steers focus away from him working on himself. Truthfully, we all contribute to our situations in some way, maybe by triggering it or fueling it in some way, so we need to own some responsibility for fixing it too - but we can't let that become their excuse for not working on themselves (which is frequently what happens, with or without therapy). He does recognize his role and says numerous times that he wants himself and it to change. He also doesn't relate to a sexless marriage and doesn't think that's us - in the sense of a refuser, refusee, etc. I don't see us in EVERY aspect of it, but we definitely play some roles there. I see what you mean on the lightbulb moment. I'm waiting to see what, if anything, has stuck. That will take a few weeks of course. I hope it's not just lip service, but it absolutely could be. That will get me much closer to an answer, because I'm being honest when I say that this time was different. He really thought I wouldn't be there when he got home from work, and he's never felt that way before. This is it, truly. I think talking about certain aspects of sex would be somewhat awkward, but we can talk about other sex things and it's just fine. He doesn't think he has any issues with sex, and I know I don't (well, besides this issue!) I don't really want to take the therapy route anymore, at least together. I think we've both contributed to this issue - I really don't fully blame him. But I do blame him for taking the seemingly complacent route and letting it grow like a wildfire. We'll see what happens. I appreciate your input! |
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 22:21:07 GMT -5
Well we had a big discussion today. He said he feels more sexual feelings coming back because we're removing a lot of the walls/deep seated stuff that has affected our issue. Ugh, this is so hard. Then he basically said he's staying and up for working on it, but it's up to me. I do think he has chemistry. And emotions. That's why this is hard. He's not just like a corpse or someone unwilling to do anything. He said he cares too much about me to just do things for the sake of doing them, especially when we're both upset over the issue. I can't really fault him for that and feel more confused than ever... "Then he basically said he's staying and up for working on it, but it's up to me." WTF? He just dumped the whole thing back in your lap. I'm not really that incredulous. This is the SOP of refusers. You previously asked me how I stayed for 30 years. Part of the reason was I was stuck in the same endless loop, where her sexual issues were dumped back on me. And as I mentioned before, my marriage counseling did the same thing- dumping all the responsibility for her lack of desire back on me. What your Husband actually said, based on your recounting is... "I have the life I want. If you want changes, you will have to change". And then he gives you vague promises of his libido returning. How has the sex been since his libido returned? You were previously advised that only actions/behavior matters, not words. This is exactly why you were given that advice. We've all been down this rabbit hole many, many times. "Up to me" if I want to leave - not to fix the issue. Not sure if that's what you meant or not, but that's what I intended. I don't think he wants this either. But no one knows how to fix it. Truly. I'm not really sure what to do about that... |
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Post by joy6016 on Dec 4, 2016 22:22:39 GMT -5
...I don't really know what his libido is one way or another, that's the problem. But the "You must do _____...." makes sense, because in my case, it's the discussion/anger/walls that he claims is causing it. But you know EXACTLY what his libido is. It is Zero. His libido is precisely measured by his sexual actions, which are virtually nonexistent. His libido went to Zero before you even married him, and it has stayed at Zero in the succeeding 6 years of your marriage. If he had a libido he would be dragging you into the bedroom and pounding you senseless. But he isn't. It really is this simple. In the meantime he is dealing with this by putting the blame on your reaction to his lack of libido. All this talk about walls and anger is about your reaction to his lack of libido. And it is pointless without ACTION on his part. DryCreek has done an amazing job explaining your deal, and how your husband views sex and intimacy. He claims he can't just have sex to have sex, especially if he knows I'm upset. I can't really say someone else's feelings aren't valid, so how can I say that's wrong or not true? I agree that action NEEDS to happen. Without that, we cannot continue... and he knows this. |
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Post by JMX on Dec 4, 2016 22:30:02 GMT -5
joy6016 - I could have written your last paragraph word-for-word. I did write it - 3 years ago. I wish I could link my old EP stories here for you. You sound so much like me - in small but important ways. I do love my husband too. I do think he is a good person. My husband falls into "intimacy averse orientation" and I think it is a deep dark secret. It hurts me knowing some of his back story and correlating it to our SM. He has never really told me any of it, but I have pieced together much of it on my own through family interactions. Heartbreaking stuff that in a way has kept me in this situation - working to help him and losing myself. He could have been an alcoholic, a wife-abuser or a serial cheater. Instead, he reads fantasy books, plays video games and is (in my now opinion) emotionally abusive. It takes a bit to understand that there are the bad three OVERT abusive behaviors and the equally sinister covert abusive behavior. So, in a way, I have found my "why" and I understand it now. It does not make it easier when he charms me, does things for me now and generally is otherwise (improved but somewhat) affectionate. This is as "close" as he can get. It's as much as he can do. I don't hate HIM, I hate the situation and what I have allowed his shit to do to me. You may feel the same with the passing of time. I want the best for him - but it is not my monster. Your husband's hang-ups are not your monster to sleigh either. They are his, and as beachguy said - it could take years and even decades in this situation.
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Post by Dan on Dec 4, 2016 22:31:43 GMT -5
joy6016 : So glad you have been able to "empty your cup" with us. I'm coming to this thread just a little late, and -- holy smokes! -- it is twelve pages long. I've read a several pages and heard lots of advice like "impose a timetable" and "it's not your fault." I agree! But here is one thing I haven't heard yet it what has been said: IF/WHEN YOU LEAVE HIM, YOU WILL FIND SOMEONE EQUALLY OR MORE WONDERFUL. Please repeat that over and over. Tape it to your dashboard. Write it on the back of a credit card. Tape it to your monitor at work. You need to KNOW this. I say this because I have the sense you need to hear it. You are SO YOUNG and will have SO MANY opportunities to meet men who are looking for a woman like you. Another reason I say it is... because of my parents' cassette tapes. They had a bunch that we would always listen to on car trips. One was the Seekers singing "I Know I'll Never Find Another You". It is a sweet song from the 1960's. And it seems to represent their devotion to each other. OK, fine, that is sweet. But somehow it made me think that there was ONLY ONE "right" person out there for me. And -- by some more illogical reasoning -- if I was with someone (dating steady), THAT person must be "the one". I've since realized the error in this line of thinking. I hope it is clear to you, too, after my little story. Just because he's a nice guy and you are habituated to his being around... that doesn't mean that he is the right one for you for the rest of your life.
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Post by JMX on Dec 4, 2016 22:33:56 GMT -5
Also - what got me about what beachguy said - it never turns around for women here. Never. Once that sexual desire is gone, I believe you cannot get it back. Whatever the reason and how unfair it is, it won't ever come back. I am so sorry to say that. But it remains truth. |
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Post by unmatched on Dec 4, 2016 22:46:08 GMT -5
But you know EXACTLY what his libido is. It is Zero. His libido is precisely measured by his sexual actions, which are virtually nonexistent. His libido went to Zero before you even married him, and it has stayed at Zero in the succeeding 6 years of your marriage. If he had a libido he would be dragging you into the bedroom and pounding you senseless. But he isn't. It really is this simple. In the meantime he is dealing with this by putting the blame on your reaction to his lack of libido. All this talk about walls and anger is about your reaction to his lack of libido. And it is pointless without ACTION on his part. DryCreek has done an amazing job explaining your deal, and how your husband views sex and intimacy. He claims he can't just have sex to have sex, especially if he knows I'm upset. I can't really say someone else's feelings aren't valid, so how can I say that's wrong or not true? I agree that action NEEDS to happen. Without that, we cannot continue... and he knows this. He can't have sex just to have sex at this point. It won't work. BUT that doesn't mean he should do nothing. If he wants to make this relationship work he needs to find a way to rip his heart open and be fully, completely, physically and emotionally engaged with you because he can see that you need it. That is not having sex even though he doesn't feel it. That is rediscovering how much he loves you and what that means to him, even when what he really feels like is hiding behind his walls. That is what relationships are about. That is what you do for your kids when they need you. That is what you do for a parent when they are diagnosed with liver failure. And that is what makes the difference between a committed relationship and one where you just have two people who are willing to walk alongside each other as long as they still feel like it. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 4, 2016 22:59:24 GMT -5
You know have pages and pages of priceless references to look back on. When I first came to this sight (EP) there was a lady on here who was a straight shooter. She would ask me, "have you lost your mind? Why do you continue to torture yourself?" I answered with, " honestly I have to go through the actions, and the words myself, I had to know that there was no doubt, my actions, words, the setting, the planning." All part of the step by step process of "change". Not him, not the refuser, but for you.
You dear, have been, conditioned, processed, brain washed, manipulated for so long, it is going to take several "tipping points" to win the battle. You are in a battle. Your whole identity and freedom are being taken from you. How do you win such a war? By gaining ground. Like you are doing here. Gain ground through actions. Retreat when you have to, and regroup. Start building an army. Find people in your life who will be your silent sword bearer. A mentor. Find your joy,again.
Continue to be a mentor for others, as you have shown, that you have that gift, that talent. Take it where it can help someone else, stop wasting it on the enemy. Someone who is going to be-little your gifts and strengths.
You deserve to be cherished, you deserve that!!!
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 4, 2016 23:10:57 GMT -5
He claims he can't just have sex to have sex, especially if he knows I'm upset. Diversion. Plain, and simple. He will not come out and admit that he has NO DESIRE, NO SEX DRIVE. You are aware of the reasons. Fear, past trauma, etc...all of them or one of them , the why doesn't matter. Back again to filling your needs. Seriously , and with respect and kindness, a dog would do a better job of giving you love, attention and affection. (voice of experience) |
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Post by Dan on Dec 4, 2016 23:21:53 GMT -5
Also - what got me about what beachguy said - it never turns around for women here. Never. Once that sexual desire is gone, I believe you cannot get it back. Whatever the reason and how unfair it is, it won't ever come back. I am so sorry to say that. But it remains truth. JMX, my friend... I'm so interested in this comment of yours. But I want to ask you to clarify what you are saying. Are you saying: 1) Once a refused wife loses sexual interest in her spouse, there are no examples of her regaining that interest in her refuser husband in particular? Interesting claim! I can't think of a counter example, so I'll go with it. But I wanted to ask if I read you right. (If that is not what you are saying... please clarify.) If that is what you are saying, that leads me to ask: 2) Do you know any incidents of refused husband who lost sexual interest in his spouse, but who then regained it? I can't think of any of those, either. So while we have often talked about getting to the point of "counter-refusal", I don't think we chatted much about the gender differences there... nor about it's permanence. So I'm just interested in your thoughts (or others') on this aspect of counter-refusal. |
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Post by JMX on Dec 4, 2016 23:29:21 GMT -5
He claims he can't just have sex to have sex, especially if he knows I'm upset. Diversion. Plain, and simple. He will not come out and admit that he has NO DESIRE, NO SEX DRIVE. You are aware of the reasons. Fear, past trauma, etc...all of them or one of them , the why doesn't matter. Back again to filling your needs. Seriously , and with respect and kindness, a dog would do a better job of giving you love, attention and affection. (voice of experience) Having sex, just to have sex, is a normal reaction to a lover that IS upset, especially about not having sex. My husband claims (in a way) he cannot have sex while we have financial problems. Lol! Seriously? You have no money to go out, but the kids are at nana's - what is the best entertainment when you are without money? Both excuses, no matter their "feelings" are the same. |
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? And he did this with a straight face? Are you serious? If it were me I would have had to respond with "you managed to fuck me 5 times last year, what exactly are you doing with this huge sex drive?
