|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 11:52:30 GMT -5
There are a few Ultimate Truths we've learned here. - You can't argue your way into a good sex life - You can't coerce your way into a good sex life (the spread em or else strategy) - You can't reason your way into a good sex life - You can't make someone want you that way - You can't make someone love you that way On the one hand, "one last chance" can't hurt, right? On the other hand, you will never escape your SM until you decide you aren't going to give him one last chance. Overlying all of that, after fighting this for 5 years or more, how do you give him one last chance without running into the Ultimate Truths I've outlined above? One last chance is pure coercion. You know it, he knows it. No matter how you phrase it, it has to come out the same... "fuck me or else". Good luck winding your way through this. All good points. And I really don't want to have to coerce him. I've said that so many times. Why do I have to beg? He says I don't have to. Yet, if I didn't say anything (and I've tried this by saying nothing for months at one point in time), it would not be discussed AND nothing would change. I get it.. I really do. It's nearly impossible to turn around, and if you do, it's brief or it's coerced. It's not really ever real again. I'm doing my best. I know I'm closer and closer to realizing the reality of it all, but it will still take a little bit of time to fully commit to leaving. A suggestion, based on 30 years personal experience plus much of what I've read here... You think you are close but you are aren't. Until you truly get that the reason does not matter. Particularly in your case, where you've made it very obvious that the reason is "everything" to you, during our rather lengthy exchange here. Whatever the reason is, it is one of the one's you stated would be immediate deal breakers. Except that vague catch all "other sexual dysfunction". And if that is the case, he can't label it, nor can any therapist that has ever tried. That's why it's in that "vague other category". There are only so many possible reasons why your Husband has refused to be intimate with you since your engagement. The time to have fixed it was between the engagement and the wedding (when it first started). I'm sure you were very caring and gentle about your insistence that he fuck you, back then. In the interim 6+ years you have become increasingly insistent as he has neglected you. At this point, you cannot give him a "last chance" without stating very firmly "stick it in or else". If you don't say that, then he could not possibly distinguish this "last chance" from all the prior chances you gave him. It would be the same old same old. I get the sense that you want more than a fleshy dildo, which is the best you are likely to get now. It is truly hopeless, and THE REASON DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THE END RESULT WON'T CHANGE. It is really tough to accept a simple truth: your spouse has zero interest in fucking you, and the reason does not matter. It was tough for me, too. Quite devastating, in fact. But once I came to fully accept that, and that the reason was just idle academic curiosity in the interests in science, THEN I was able to leave. I'm giving you some tough love, but I'm doing it because I so empathize with your deal. And unlike me, you are waking up when you are still young, and hopefully relatively undamaged by the experience. There is a term I've used here from time to time... "effectively asexual". I use that term because we don't know why our spouses refuse us. I think "effectively asexual" is a good term to describe a deal where a spouse has no interest in us, nor is there evidence they have an interest in others. If he's a closet gay, and he is averse to fucking you, and also averse to coming out and finding a boyfriend (or doing that in secret), then he is averse to sex with anyone. There is also an idea that has become fashionable of being homosexual and homophobic at the same time. He is effectively asexual and any more definitive labeling is a game to be played by psychologists seeking grant money to pay their mortgage. If he really is asexual, he is surely effectively asexual. If he is intimacy averse, but not actively pursuing other partners for ONS's or other more casual sex to satisfy his sex drive, then he might as well be asexual because he is as averse to having sex outside the marriage as he is inside the marriage, despite having you in bed next to him for the last 6 years. If he is intimacy averse he probably does not know it. If he has a sex drive, then THAT he knows for sure, it is only a matter of what he does with it. If he does nothing with it, we're back to effectively asexual. You might be interested to know that many asexuals have a sex drive. They enjoy the feeling of an O, and they have a need for release (especially men that need to empty their prostates regularly and they need an O to do that). What makes them different is that they prefer a solo experience. An asexual might masturbate every night. What they fantasize during their experience, I have no clue. What genre of porn they might watch, I have no clue. Great research idea there, in the interests of science. But if you insist on chasing why's it is critical that you understand the difference between a physical sex drive and asexuality. Especially with a guy. And maybe the idea of "effectively asexual" might help you come to a decision. |
|
|
|
Post by joy6016 on Dec 2, 2016 13:12:06 GMT -5
All good points. And I really don't want to have to coerce him. I've said that so many times. Why do I have to beg? He says I don't have to. Yet, if I didn't say anything (and I've tried this by saying nothing for months at one point in time), it would not be discussed AND nothing would change. I get it.. I really do. It's nearly impossible to turn around, and if you do, it's brief or it's coerced. It's not really ever real again. I'm doing my best. I know I'm closer and closer to realizing the reality of it all, but it will still take a little bit of time to fully commit to leaving. A suggestion, based on 30 years personal experience plus much of what I've read here... You think you are close but you are aren't. Until you truly get that the reason does not matter. Particularly in your case, where you've made it very obvious that the reason is "everything" to you, during our rather lengthy exchange here. Whatever the reason is, it is one of the one's you stated would be immediate deal breakers. Except that vague catch all "other sexual dysfunction". And if that is the case, he can't label it, nor can any therapist that has ever tried. That's why it's in that "vague other category". There are only so many possible reasons why your Husband has refused to be intimate with you since your engagement. The time to have fixed it was between the engagement and the wedding (when it first started). I'm sure you were very caring and gentle about your insistence that he fuck you, back then. In the interim 6+ years you have become increasingly insistent as he has neglected you. At this point, you cannot give him a "last chance" without stating very firmly "stick it in or else". If you don't say that, then he could not possibly distinguish this "last chance" from all the prior chances you gave him. It would be the same old same old. I get the sense that you want more than a fleshy dildo, which is the best you are likely to get now. It is truly hopeless, and THE REASON DOES NOT MATTER BECAUSE THE END RESULT WON'T CHANGE. It is really tough to accept a simple truth: your spouse has zero interest in fucking you, and the reason does not matter. It was tough for me, too. Quite devastating, in fact. But once I came to fully accept that, and that the reason was just idle academic curiosity in the interests in science, THEN I was able to leave. I'm giving you some tough love, but I'm doing it because I so empathize with your deal. And unlike me, you are waking up when you are still young, and hopefully relatively undamaged by the experience. There is a term I've used here from time to time... "effectively asexual". I use that term because we don't know why our spouses refuse us. I think "effectively asexual" is a good term to describe a deal where a spouse has no interest in us, nor is there evidence they have an interest in others. If he's a closet gay, and he is averse to fucking you, and also averse to coming out and finding a boyfriend (or doing that in secret), then he is averse to sex with anyone. There is also an idea that has become fashionable of being homosexual and homophobic at the same time. He is effectively asexual and any more definitive labeling is a game to be played by psychologists seeking grant money to pay their mortgage. If he really is asexual, he is surely effectively asexual. If he is intimacy averse, but not actively pursuing other partners for ONS's or other more casual sex to satisfy his sex drive, then he might as well be asexual because he is as averse to having sex outside the marriage as he is inside the marriage, despite having you in bed next to him for the last 6 years. If he is intimacy averse he probably does not know it. If he has a sex drive, then THAT he knows for sure, it is only a matter of what he does with it. If he does nothing with it, we're back to effectively asexual. You might be interested to know that many asexuals have a sex drive. They enjoy the feeling of an O, and they have a need for release (especially men that need to empty their prostates regularly and they need an O to do that). What makes them different is that they prefer a solo experience. An asexual might masturbate every night. What they fantasize during their experience, I have no clue. What genre of porn they might watch, I have no clue. Great research idea there, in the interests of science. But if you insist on chasing why's it is critical that you understand the difference between a physical sex drive and asexuality. Especially with a guy. And maybe the idea of "effectively asexual" might help you come to a decision. I think I'm also having problems with the word "refuser." Because at this point, it's not like I try and he says no. I stopped doing that a lot time ago because outright suggesting that we do it was met with "yeah" and then it never happened. I've had guys in the past just go after me (in a good way, sexually) and he has really never done that in a LONG time. Is that still being refused? That's another thing I hold onto as "I didn't try hard enough..." Interesting information about asexuals - I've read a little more since you've told me about it. I can definitely see him as some type of asexual - maybe not on that large of a scale, but I think there's something there. I like the "effectively asexual" too, although he would NEVER ever see or admit that. I guess at this point he truly doesn't do anything (or rarely) with his sex drive, so what does that mean? He did once say that the first time he had sex, that having a solo experience was better. Interesting... I had forgotten all about that until now. The effectively asexual does help a little bit, but if HE doesn't accept that as himself, it still doesn't really feel like a "reason" to me. Again, not that I 100% NEED a reason to leave, but it would make life easier. If he came out as gay or he, himself, told me he was asexual, it would be different. But if he is one of those things, he will NEVER say it. |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 14:06:49 GMT -5
"I stopped doing that a lot time ago because outright suggesting that we do it was met with "yeah" and then it never happened." "He did once say that the first time he had sex, that having a solo experience was better." "I guess at this point he truly doesn't do anything (or rarely) with his sex drive, so what does that mean?" Ummm.... perhaps he's asexual? What more could you want? Sexuality is not that mystical, really, at least when applied to sexual people. They just are. As a long term refused spouse, I have a lot of trouble with the idea that only one's self can label one's self as gay/asexual/etc. Yea, it makes sense in a clinical sense, but it gives the person the power to keep their partner twisting in the wind, as he has you. So at some point we (the refused) have to step up to the plate, label our refusers as best we can, accept we cannot change them or make us want them, and try to move on with our lives. As I understand it, sexuality is a continuum, all the way from Hypersexual on the right side of the scale to Asexual on the left side. And within the asexual band on that far left side, there is a micro-continuum of sorts. Or maybe a mini-continuum... Some asexuals are truly averse to sex with any other person. It's gross, it's just... I don't wanna do that, ever. Those people are obviously asexual. But there is another whole world of "grey-asexuality" (grey-A) and those people aren't exactly grossed out by sex, they just have no interest in sex (with other people). Or minimal interest- this is important because sexuality is a spectrum, not some binary set of containers. At the margins on the right side of asexuality, the lines between grey-A and "not too sexual" people are very blurred. By my way of thinking, and this is part speculation and part personal experience, since they don't have a *NEED* for sex, they (grey-A) view sex as an effective weapon or a tool. If you want to enter into a relationship with another person (hetero or gay), and you are asexual, you either need to find a similarly asexual person or you need to attract a mate with sex... Asexuals are grouped into two divisions, romantic and aromantic. Aromantics are loners. They have no interest in partnered relationships. But romantics want and need to be coupled just like sexuals. They might want it all- even cuddling, hand holding and other affection. Just not that yucky sexual stuff where yucky bodily fluids might be exchanged. Others are apparently happy with limited affection, and here you have to wonder where asexuality ends and intimacy aversion begins but I don't want to get off on a tangent. If you go out and study the AVEN site (asexuality-dot-org) you will find a politically correct party line that asexuals should never ensnare sexuals into a relationship. Good advice, I think, in fact rather critical advice. Now, the old EP site, which hosted the original ILIASM "subsection" also had a place for asexuals to discuss things. And I read their threads with a great deal of interest because there was no PC mantra of "acceptable behavior" there. Now what I'm about to say may be the most important thing you ever hear here... I read every thread in that section. There were numerous threads posted by asexuals, lamenting their difficulty engaging in relationships. And presumably these were romantic asexuals. and obviously they were the other side of the ILIASM world, except in most cases their relationships never got off the ground (think about your H and his cheating GF's). They talked at length about how to solve this seemingly insolvable problem. But never, not once, did I see any of those asexuals mention the enormous adverse impact on those sexual partners that they were scheming to ensnare (that's us). And when I read that section a lot of the mystery behind our refusing partners fell into place. Sex as a tool to ensnare a partner. After the commitment, especially after it's cemented with children, then sex becomes the most potent weapon a spouse could possess... The fact is, that the low libido spouse has TOTAL control over the relationship. And this is reinforced by most of the "marital advice" you read on the net and it's reinforced by basic marriage counseling protocol. When I was about 7-10 years in, I came close to ending my marriage. And the main issue I had was the sexlessness. There were many other issues, but I think many of those were spawned from the sexlessness- you are going through that now, I don't have to detail that. So we go to counseling because I've had a long term SM since the wedding. The counselors (two of them, we each had our own) INSISTED that the path to solving the sexlessness was me becoming a better husband. I had to change. Not her. We spent the better part of an entire year of at least weekly sessions working on making me worthy of fucking before I was allowed to even talk about sex. Now, THAT is control. And while there may be some validity to that approach- I might have been a real prick, and I might have changed while I was walking down the isle on my wedding day - that attitude gives the refusing spouse TOTAL control and TOTAL validation for the refuser. Sorry, I call total bullshit on that. Because I lived it. Sorry to digress, that was a pet peeve of mine. So, to recap, your average Grey-A could care less about sex. It's a good tool to ensnare a spouse, and it's a nuclear weapon when it comes to controlling a relationship because an asexual can withhold sex without cutting off their nose to spite their face. People that are sexual have to be masochists to withhold their own needs in order to affect control that way. I suspect you will never see two highly sexual people in a relationship where one is seriously withholding sex as a weapon of control. For a grey-A there is no penalty, no downside to using sex as a weapon of control. What does not make sense is people like my STBX, who I *KNOW* wielded sex as a weapon, but never understood that it is a weapon with a limited shelf life. When sex is always withheld, the weapon becomes increasingly impotent. She never got that. She got way too greedy with her tool, and you see that all the time here in the stories. Were you the refused? Absolutely. He didn't need to scream "RAPE!" to refuse you. We have a member here who is not even two years into his marriage, and he is already solidly in counter-refusal land. I think it took me longer to get there, but it was a long time ago. YOU seem to be fairly firmly into counter-refusal mode, you just don't quite realize it yet, and it's a very difficult concept to accept when you get there. When I understood I was there, I had no label for it, it was a couple years before EP and this site, and it seriously fucked with my head. It is very difficult to grasp the idea that after so many years of being the refused, you no longer have an interest in your spouse. You may not be actively counter-refusing because he might not be giving you an opportunity. After all, he has to initiate in order for you to formally refuse him. But you no longer see him as sexually attractive. If I understand you correctly, if he suddenly woke up and showed some passion, he might have trouble getting past the walls *HE* spent so many years building. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. You've told him many times you want him to pursue you sexually. You've fought about it. You don't have to physically jump him in the bedroom, and have him forcefully throw you out of the bedroom to be refused. I do get the idea that you may not be very aggressive about pursuing him, because you'd like to be pursued. It complicated it a bit. But trust me on this, if he were a sexual guy, he'd be jumping you a couple times a week. You've made it more than clear enough that you are an easy target  |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 14:29:56 GMT -5
"I stopped doing that a (long) time ago because outright suggesting that we do it was met with "yeah" and then it never happened."
Just to be clear...
When you "suggest we do it" that is initiating. You don't have to actually grab his balls...
"it was met with "yeah" and then it never happened."
Yea, that is a refusal. It does not have to end in an epic fight.
|
|
|
|
Post by joy6016 on Dec 2, 2016 15:12:01 GMT -5
"I stopped doing that a lot time ago because outright suggesting that we do it was met with "yeah" and then it never happened." "He did once say that the first time he had sex, that having a solo experience was better." "I guess at this point he truly doesn't do anything (or rarely) with his sex drive, so what does that mean?" Ummm.... perhaps he's asexual? What more could you want? Sexuality is not that mystical, really, at least when applied to sexual people. They just are. As a long term refused spouse, I have a lot of trouble with the idea that only one's self can label one's self as gay/asexual/etc. Yea, it makes sense in a clinical sense, but it gives the person the power to keep their partner twisting in the wind, as he has you. So at some point we (the refused) have to step up to the plate, label our refusers as best we can, accept we cannot change them or make us want them, and try to move on with our lives. As I understand it, sexuality is a continuum, all the way from Hypersexual on the right side of the scale to Asexual on the left side. And within the asexual band on that far left side, there is a micro-continuum of sorts. Or maybe a mini-continuum... Some asexuals are truly averse to sex with any other person. It's gross, it's just... I don't wanna do that, ever. Those people are obviously asexual. But there is another whole world of "grey-asexuality" (grey-A) and those people aren't exactly grossed out by sex, they just have no interest in sex (with other people). Or minimal interest- this is important because sexuality is a spectrum, not some binary set of containers. At the margins on the right side of asexuality, the lines between grey-A and "not too sexual" people are very blurred. By my way of thinking, and this is part speculation and part personal experience, since they don't have a *NEED* for sex, they (grey-A) view sex as an effective weapon or a tool. If you want to enter into a relationship with another person (hetero or gay), and you are asexual, you either need to find a similarly asexual person or you need to attract a mate with sex... Asexuals are grouped into two divisions, romantic and aromantic. Aromantics are loners. They have no interest in partnered relationships. But romantics want and need to be coupled just like sexuals. They might want it all- even cuddling, hand holding and other affection. Just not that yucky sexual stuff where yucky bodily fluids might be exchanged. Others are apparently happy with limited affection, and here you have to wonder where asexuality ends and intimacy aversion begins but I don't want to get off on a tangent. If you go out and study the AVEN site (asexuality-dot-org) you will find a politically correct party line that asexuals should never ensnare sexuals into a relationship. Good advice, I think, in fact rather critical advice. Now, the old EP site, which hosted the original ILIASM "subsection" also had a place for asexuals to discuss things. And I read their threads with a great deal of interest because there was no PC mantra of "acceptable behavior" there. Now what I'm about to say may be the most important thing you ever hear here... I read every thread in that section. There were numerous threads posted by asexuals, lamenting their difficulty engaging in relationships. And presumably these were romantic asexuals. and obviously they were the other side of the ILIASM world, except in most cases their relationships never got off the ground (think about your H and his cheating GF's). They talked at length about how to solve this seemingly insolvable problem. But never, not once, did I see any of those asexuals mention the enormous adverse impact on those sexual partners that they were scheming to ensnare (that's us). And when I read that section a lot of the mystery behind our refusing partners fell into place. Sex as a tool to ensnare a partner. After the commitment, especially after it's cemented with children, then sex becomes the most potent weapon a spouse could possess... The fact is, that the low libido spouse has TOTAL control over the relationship. And this is reinforced by most of the "marital advice" you read on the net and it's reinforced by basic marriage counseling protocol. When I was about 7-10 years in, I came close to ending my marriage. And the main issue I had was the sexlessness. There were many other issues, but I think many of those were spawned from the sexlessness- you are going through that now, I don't have to detail that. So we go to counseling because I've had a long term SM since the wedding. The counselors (two of them, we each had our own) INSISTED that the path to solving the sexlessness was me becoming a better husband. I had to change. Not her. We spent the better part of an entire year of at least weekly sessions working on making me worthy of fucking before I was allowed to even talk about sex. Now, THAT is control. And while there may be some validity to that approach- I might have been a real prick, and I might have changed while I was walking down the isle on my wedding day - that attitude gives the refusing spouse TOTAL control and TOTAL validation for the refuser. Sorry, I call total bullshit on that. Because I lived it. Sorry to digress, that was a pet peeve of mine. So, to recap, your average Grey-A could care less about sex. It's a good tool to ensnare a spouse, and it's a nuclear weapon when it comes to controlling a relationship because an asexual can withhold sex without cutting off their nose to spite their face. People that are sexual have to be masochists to withhold their own needs in order to affect control that way. I suspect you will never see two highly sexual people in a relationship where one is seriously withholding sex as a weapon of control. For a grey-A there is no penalty, no downside to using sex as a weapon of control. What does not make sense is people like my STBX, who I *KNOW* wielded sex as a weapon, but never understood that it is a weapon with a limited shelf life. When sex is always withheld, the weapon becomes increasingly impotent. She never got that. She got way too greedy with her tool, and you see that all the time here in the stories. Were you the refused? Absolutely. He didn't need to scream "RAPE!" to refuse you. We have a member here who is not even two years into his marriage, and he is already solidly in counter-refusal land. I think it took me longer to get there, but it was a long time ago. YOU seem to be fairly firmly into counter-refusal mode, you just don't quite realize it yet, and it's a very difficult concept to accept when you get there. When I understood I was there, I had no label for it, it was a couple years before EP and this site, and it seriously fucked with my head. It is very difficult to grasp the idea that after so many years of being the refused, you no longer have an interest in your spouse. You may not be actively counter-refusing because he might not be giving you an opportunity. After all, he has to initiate in order for you to formally refuse him. But you no longer see him as sexually attractive. If I understand you correctly, if he suddenly woke up and showed some passion, he might have trouble getting past the walls *HE* spent so many years building. Correct me if I'm wrong on that. You've told him many times you want him to pursue you sexually. You've fought about it. You don't have to physically jump him in the bedroom, and have him forcefully throw you out of the bedroom to be refused. I do get the idea that you may not be very aggressive about pursuing him, because you'd like to be pursued. It complicated it a bit. But trust me on this, if he were a sexual guy, he'd be jumping you a couple times a week. You've made it more than clear enough that you are an easy target If he really is asexual (or some variation of it), how were things good in the beginning? Can they really just go through it for a while? Because I think there is a pattern there with me and the ex girlfriends. I can't say for certain without speaking to them, but it's very likely. I know I'm losing interest, big time. And all it really took was some attention from someone else. Not to say I haven't been hit on (and that's not to brag at all), but this was from someone I know and it seemed like I could see a future. Not necessarily with him (he's in his own SM basically!) but just with someone who would want me like that. Counter-refusal is very new to me, because before, I feel like I'd do anything for him to do something with me, and even when he got close, I would be really happy. Now I'm kind of blah about it and it doesn't do much for me. He can tell I'm detaching, majorly. Can we ever come back from that? Yeah, I have made it very clear. I've talked to my best friend about this and she said she would be exhausted by beating a dead horse and getting nowhere. I feel the same way. And him being sweet, nice, a good friend isn't really holding as much weight as it used to. I am starting to see that there are other people out there - he isn't the only good guy. And those other guys would be interested in a sex life with me too. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Dec 2, 2016 15:14:33 GMT -5
Asexuals are grouped into two divisions, romantic and aromantic. Aromantics are loners. They have no interest in partnered relationships. But romantics want and need to be coupled just like sexuals. They might want it all- even cuddling, hand holding and other affection. Just not that yucky sexual stuff where yucky bodily fluids might be exchanged. Others are apparently happy with limited affection, and here you have to wonder where asexuality ends and intimacy aversion begins but I don't want to get off on a tangent. lamenting their difficulty engaging in relationships. And presumably these were romantic asexuals. and obviously they were the other side of the ILIASM world, except in most cases their relationships never got off the ground (think about your H and his cheating GF's). They talked at length about how to solve this seemingly insolvable problem. But never, not once, did I see any of those asexuals mention the enormous adverse impact on those sexual partners that they were scheming to ensnare (that's us). And when I read that section a lot of the mystery behind our refusing partners fell into place. Sex as a tool to ensnare a partner. After the commitment, especially after it's cemented with children, then sex becomes the most potent weapon a spouse could possess... The fact is, that the low libido spouse has TOTAL control over the relationship. And this is reinforced by most of the "marital advice" you read on the net and it's reinforced by basic marriage counseling protocol. When I was about 7-10 years in, I came close to ending my marriage. And the main issue I had was the sexlessness. There were many other issues, but I think many of those were spawned from the sexlessness- you are going through that now, I don't have to detail that. So we go to counseling because I've had a long term SM since the wedding. The counselors (two of them, we each had our own) INSISTED that the path to solving the sexlessness was me becoming a better husband. I had to change. Not her. We spent the better part of an entire year of at least weekly sessions working on making me worthy of fucking before I was allowed to even talk about sex. Now, THAT is control. And while there may be some validity to that approach- I might have been a real prick, and I might have changed while I was walking down the isle on my wedding day - that attitude gives the refusing spouse TOTAL control and TOTAL validation for the refuser. Sorry, I call total bullshit on that. Because I lived it. Sorry to digress, that was a pet peeve of mine. So, to recap, your average Grey-A could care less about sex. It's a good tool to ensnare a spouse, and it's a nuclear weapon when it comes to controlling a relationship because an asexual can withhold sex without cutting off their nose to spite their face. People that are sexual have to be masochists to withhold their own needs in order to affect control that way. I suspect you will never see two highly sexual people in a relationship where one is seriously withholding sex as a weapon of control. For a grey-A there is no penalty, no downside to using sex as a weapon of control. What does not make sense is people like my STBX, who I *KNOW* wielded sex as a weapon, but never understood that it is a weapon with a limited shelf life. When sex is always withheld, the weapon becomes increasingly impotent. She never got that. She got way too greedy with her tool, and you see that all the time here in the stories. Hi beachguy! Thanks for doing an awesome job here! This also leans very heavy on describing a narcissist, and/or a manipulative controller. What say you? |
|
|
|
Post by nancyb on Dec 2, 2016 16:13:26 GMT -5
"It is really tough to accept a simple truth: your spouse has zero interest in fucking you, and the reason does not matter. It was tough for me, too. Quite devastating, in fact. But once I came to fully accept that, and that the reason was just idle academic curiosity in the interests in science, THEN I was able to leave." Beachguy...thank you for that perfect, succinct response. New thread anyone? |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 16:16:29 GMT -5
If he really is asexual (or some variation of it), how were things good in the beginning? Can they really just go through it for a while? Because I think there is a pattern there with me and the ex girlfriends. I can't say for certain without speaking to them, but it's very likely. I know I'm losing interest, big time. And all it really took was some attention from someone else. Not to say I haven't been hit on (and that's not to brag at all), but this was from someone I know and it seemed like I could see a future. Not necessarily with him (he's in his own SM basically!) but just with someone who would want me like that. Counter-refusal is very new to me, because before, I feel like I'd do anything for him to do something with me, and even when he got close, I would be really happy. Now I'm kind of blah about it and it doesn't do much for me. He can tell I'm detaching, majorly. Can we ever come back from that? Yeah, I have made it very clear. I've talked to my best friend about this and she said she would be exhausted by beating a dead horse and getting nowhere. I feel the same way. And him being sweet, nice, a good friend isn't really holding as much weight as it used to. I am starting to see that there are other people out there - he isn't the only good guy. And those other guys would be interested in a sex life with me too. All I can tell you is that this forum and the predecessor EP was filled with stories about spouses that came on strong in the beginning, often very strong (like my STBX) but fell off a cliff at some point. I don't know why but I know it is very common. I gave you one theory- yes, he used sex as a tool to lure you in, knowing he could never perpetuate it, just like with his many exes. Another theory is that while he is grey-A his libido is not quite zero. Maybe a fresh relationship can get him going for a while and then his chemical levels or whatever relapse to their natural state. Leave it to the psychologists looking for grant money. Your marriage was stillborn. It started dying right after your engagement. It was a corpse by the time of your wedding, you just didn't know that. Your relationship was starved by lack of affection. Your H established an enforced roommate relationship - even though he insists you observe your vow of monogamy. He refuses to change. Probably can't change, what you are trying to do to him is like turning a hetero gay or a gay guy straight. He is effectively asexual (regardless of the science behind his particular problem) and it is clear that that is an ORIENTATION, not his preference, or his choice, or some sort of conscious punishment aimed at you. It's an orientation. You have followed the path everyone else here has followed (especially given 20 years or so). You've detached. You are either fully counter-refusing at this point or headed quickly there. In the meantime he will never change his ORIENTATION. Can you come back from this? How could you? Your relationship will always be starved unless he has a total change in orientation. You can't bring a corpse back from life if you have no way of resuscitating it. You can't make water flow uphill, and the natural path of your relationship is continued detachment, and an increasingly counter-refusing attitude on your end. If you learn anything here, I hope you spend some time reading the stories of those here that have been in 20 years or more. They are you, your future. It is preordained. You can become them/us/me or you can escape with your life and your mental and physical health. |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 16:29:14 GMT -5
Hi beachguy! Thanks for doing an awesome job here! This also leans very heavy on describing a narcissist, and/or a manipulative controller. What say you? I think intimacy aversion, asexuality narcissism and manipulative controllers are just similar animals in a common zoo, and in some cases arguably labels put on different sides of the same creature. They are all common threads here, although obviously not all inclusive in any or all cases. But if you look at the suggested root causes of intimacy aversion, it is often similar to narcissism, controlling and selfish personalities. I look at my STBX and I can see asexuality, and I can see narcissism, and I can see intimacy aversion. I've never seen anyone try to tie some of that together in some sort of Grand Unified Theory and I'm not at the pay grade to do it. I just see these common threads here. For example, a guy whacking off to porn every night, and sexting GF's while his wife lies neglected in bed. Not really asexual but very intimacy averse. But other intimacy averse people display absolutely no sexuality whatsoever (and I have too much experience with that!). So any ties I suggest are not absolute, but more like sometimes very related symptoms, too related to ignore. |
|
|
|
Post by joy6016 on Dec 2, 2016 16:36:12 GMT -5
If he really is asexual (or some variation of it), how were things good in the beginning? Can they really just go through it for a while? Because I think there is a pattern there with me and the ex girlfriends. I can't say for certain without speaking to them, but it's very likely. I know I'm losing interest, big time. And all it really took was some attention from someone else. Not to say I haven't been hit on (and that's not to brag at all), but this was from someone I know and it seemed like I could see a future. Not necessarily with him (he's in his own SM basically!) but just with someone who would want me like that. Counter-refusal is very new to me, because before, I feel like I'd do anything for him to do something with me, and even when he got close, I would be really happy. Now I'm kind of blah about it and it doesn't do much for me. He can tell I'm detaching, majorly. Can we ever come back from that? Yeah, I have made it very clear. I've talked to my best friend about this and she said she would be exhausted by beating a dead horse and getting nowhere. I feel the same way. And him being sweet, nice, a good friend isn't really holding as much weight as it used to. I am starting to see that there are other people out there - he isn't the only good guy. And those other guys would be interested in a sex life with me too. All I can tell you is that this forum and the predecessor EP was filled with stories about spouses that came on strong in the beginning, often very strong (like my STBX) but fell off a cliff at some point. I don't know why but I know it is very common. I gave you one theory- yes, he used sex as a tool to lure you in, knowing he could never perpetuate it, just like with his many exes. Another theory is that while he is grey-A his libido is not quite zero. Maybe a fresh relationship can get him going for a while and then his chemical levels or whatever relapse to their natural state. Leave it to the psychologists looking for grant money. Your marriage was stillborn. It started dying right after your engagement. It was a corpse by the time of your wedding, you just didn't know that. Your relationship was starved by lack of affection. Your H established an enforced roommate relationship - even though he insists you observe your vow of monogamy. He refuses to change. Probably can't change, what you are trying to do to him is like turning a hetero gay or a gay guy straight. He is effectively asexual (regardless of the science behind his particular problem) and it is clear that that is an ORIENTATION, not his preference, or his choice, or some sort of conscious punishment aimed at you. It's an orientation. You have followed the path everyone else here has followed (especially given 20 years or so). You've detached. You are either fully counter-refusing at this point or headed quickly there. In the meantime he will never change his ORIENTATION. Can you come back from this? How could you? Your relationship will always be starved unless he has a total change in orientation. You can't bring a corpse back from life if you have no way of resuscitating it. You can't make water flow uphill, and the natural path of your relationship is continued detachment, and an increasingly counter-refusing attitude on your end. If you learn anything here, I hope you spend some time reading the stories of those here that have been in 20 years or more. They are you, your future. It is preordained. You can become them/us/me or you can escape with your life and your mental and physical health. Hmmm makes more sense as an orientation versus a preference. I guess then asking him to go to therapy for intimacy issues/aversion wouldn't solve anything, correct? And what about other types of affection - he does (quick) kisses, hugs, cuddling, etc., so how could he be fully against intimacy? |
|
|
|
Post by LITW on Dec 2, 2016 16:49:11 GMT -5
There are a few Ultimate Truths we've learned here. - You can't argue your way into a good sex life - You can't coerce your way into a good sex life (the spread em or else strategy) - You can't reason your way into a good sex life - You can't make someone want you that way - You can't make someone love you that way On the one hand, "one last chance" can't hurt, right? On the other hand, you will never escape your SM until you decide you aren't going to give him one last chance. Overlying all of that, after fighting this for 5 years or more, how do you give him one last chance without running into the Ultimate Truths I've outlined above? One last chance is pure coercion. You know it, he knows it. No matter how you phrase it, it has to come out the same... "fuck me or else". Good luck winding your way through this. All good points. And I really don't want to have to coerce him. I've said that so many times. Why do I have to beg? He says I don't have to. Yet, if I didn't say anything (and I've tried this by saying nothing for months at one point in time), it would not be discussed AND nothing would change. I get it.. I really do. It's nearly impossible to turn around, and if you do, it's brief or it's coerced. It's not really ever real again. I'm doing my best. I know I'm closer and closer to realizing the reality of it all, but it will still take a little bit of time to fully commit to leaving. I totally get what you mean about not wanting to have to coerce him. My wife is an asexual too, and she says that we dont have sex often because I don't pursue her. But if I do pursue, I have a fairly remote chance she will actually follow through on it, and she never seems to be very into it. We have discussed making sex a priority too, and making positive changes, but they never happen, and she blames me for them not. She even scheduled sex on google calendar once and sent me an invite, to which I responded that I would be attending. It didn't happen then either. Having to coerce someone into having sex with you is like having to beg someone to give you a birthday gift. Even if you do get one, it won't feel like an act of love. I don't want duty sex, I want passionate sex. Sadly, the lack of passion in my marriage has made me lose interest in pursuing her, so I have pretty much lost interest. Its hard to be passionate about starfish sex ... and its hard to be sexually attracted to someone who wears baggy, unflattering clothing all the time and is almost always too tired or has a headache to do anything fun. And by fun I don't mean sex ... I mean anything fun at all. It makes me sad. |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 17:02:05 GMT -5
All I can tell you is that this forum and the predecessor EP was filled with stories about spouses that came on strong in the beginning, often very strong (like my STBX) but fell off a cliff at some point. I don't know why but I know it is very common. I gave you one theory- yes, he used sex as a tool to lure you in, knowing he could never perpetuate it, just like with his many exes. Another theory is that while he is grey-A his libido is not quite zero. Maybe a fresh relationship can get him going for a while and then his chemical levels or whatever relapse to their natural state. Leave it to the psychologists looking for grant money. Your marriage was stillborn. It started dying right after your engagement. It was a corpse by the time of your wedding, you just didn't know that. Your relationship was starved by lack of affection. Your H established an enforced roommate relationship - even though he insists you observe your vow of monogamy. He refuses to change. Probably can't change, what you are trying to do to him is like turning a hetero gay or a gay guy straight. He is effectively asexual (regardless of the science behind his particular problem) and it is clear that that is an ORIENTATION, not his preference, or his choice, or some sort of conscious punishment aimed at you. It's an orientation. You have followed the path everyone else here has followed (especially given 20 years or so). You've detached. You are either fully counter-refusing at this point or headed quickly there. In the meantime he will never change his ORIENTATION. Can you come back from this? How could you? Your relationship will always be starved unless he has a total change in orientation. You can't bring a corpse back from life if you have no way of resuscitating it. You can't make water flow uphill, and the natural path of your relationship is continued detachment, and an increasingly counter-refusing attitude on your end. If you learn anything here, I hope you spend some time reading the stories of those here that have been in 20 years or more. They are you, your future. It is preordained. You can become them/us/me or you can escape with your life and your mental and physical health. Hmmm makes more sense as an orientation versus a preference. I guess then asking him to go to therapy for intimacy issues/aversion wouldn't solve anything, correct? And what about other types of affection - he does (quick) kisses, hugs, cuddling, etc., so how could he be fully against intimacy? Do some research on intimacy aversion. My research says it takes years (read decades if ever) of intensive therapy because it is cooked into the personality at an early age in traumatic environments. With very guarded outlooks for success. And when you look for it, look for specific examples of statistics where people were actually cured. I doubt you will find any. I once considered doing a post here suggesting that intimacy aversion should be considered an orientation, at least in terms of fighting your way out of an SM. No different than asexuality or homosexuality. I don't know that 20 years of therapy can't turn a gay person straight, it just isn't politically correct to even suggest doing it. Same with asexuality. So let's say you suggest he go into therapy specifically to work on his intimacy aversion (which he has not been formally diagnosed with, we are just speculating on the big 3 possibilities!). He most likely will not agree to it, that based on the reports here that refusers very rarely seriously try to resolve their sexual issues. And I think you mentioned his previous reluctance to enter into counseling or therapy??? Now he spends 20 years in therapy. And it turns out he's really just gay or asexual. And now you're 50. I know that sounds far-fetched, but really, the idea that YOU are going to get HIM to commit to long term therapy for something he refuses to acknowledge as a problem is even more far-fetched. Believe it or not, most females here that have Husbands with ED problems can't get them to go to a urologist for a simple checkup and viagra scrip. And after they finally go, they almost never take the pills. Really. One of the weird things about male sexual issues is that most men refuse treatment. At least based on the many stories here. Of course, there are many female refusers discussed here that similarly refuse any treatment or even diagnosis related to their sexual disinterest. If it is unlikely you would get him to take a blue pill if that's what would solve his problem, then the chances of you getting him to actually participate in long term therapy to deal with his issues is remote. Unless of course it was all his idea to begin with. Which it is decidedly not, as I understand things. Alternately, you might check into therapy to try to kill your sex drive. If you could do that with 10 years of intensive therapy, that might be a long term solution to YOUR problem. Don't forget, this is not his problem, it's your problem. Up for it? I didn't think so . Maybe that provides a different perspective on why you are unlikely to fix his problem through therapy if it is intimacy aversion. |
|
|
|
Post by joy6016 on Dec 2, 2016 17:05:43 GMT -5
All good points. And I really don't want to have to coerce him. I've said that so many times. Why do I have to beg? He says I don't have to. Yet, if I didn't say anything (and I've tried this by saying nothing for months at one point in time), it would not be discussed AND nothing would change. I get it.. I really do. It's nearly impossible to turn around, and if you do, it's brief or it's coerced. It's not really ever real again. I'm doing my best. I know I'm closer and closer to realizing the reality of it all, but it will still take a little bit of time to fully commit to leaving. I totally get what you mean about not wanting to have to coerce him. My wife is an asexual too, and she says that we dont have sex often because I don't pursue her. But if I do pursue, I have a fairly remote chance she will actually follow through on it, and she never seems to be very into it. We have discussed making sex a priority too, and making positive changes, but they never happen, and she blames me for them not. She even scheduled sex on google calendar once and sent me an invite, to which I responded that I would be attending. It didn't happen then either. Having to coerce someone into having sex with you is like having to beg someone to give you a birthday gift. Even if you do get one, it won't feel like an act of love. I don't want duty sex, I want passionate sex. Sadly, the lack of passion in my marriage has made me lose interest in pursuing her, so I have pretty much lost interest. Its hard to be passionate about starfish sex ... and its hard to be sexually attracted to someone who wears baggy, unflattering clothing all the time and is almost always too tired or has a headache to do anything fun. And by fun I don't mean sex ... I mean anything fun at all. It makes me sad. I'm so sorry, LITW. That's really sad. How long has this been going on for you? The calendar thing is especially sad. It's like she tries but has no intention of follow through. I can relate. The coercing is probably the worst part. Like why should you have to convince someone who loves you to want to have sex? It's depressing. And the birthday gift is a perfect comparison. I might as well buy my own gift! Begging is not attractive and makes me feel really bad about myself. |
|
|
|
Post by beachguy on Dec 2, 2016 17:14:22 GMT -5
A caution: There is a huge risk if you try the therapy route. He likes the status quo. A few years of therapy would delay the inevitable, perhaps indefinitely. So despite what I said previously, he might actually take you up on it, as a delaying tactic. And if it's individual therapy you'll never know if he is putting any actual effort into it. He could be playing chess during his therapy for all you know, given privacy issues.
A lot of people recommend couples counseling and therapy for marriage issues. In some cases it might make sense. If you had 10 good years of the marriage (and lots of sex) followed by a bad year or two then sure, maybe there's something to salvage here. But in your case, you would be basically trying to change his orientation(s). You're trying to fix a stillborn marriage. And in the meantime, it's delay, delay, delay. If he or someone else tries to suck you into therapy you might want to look carefully at the risk reward benefits.
|
|
|
|
Post by LITW on Dec 2, 2016 17:15:08 GMT -5
joy6016 ... We got married in 2005, and that is when it started.
I am sorry for your experience too ... I know what that feels like!
|
|
