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Post by beachguy on Nov 11, 2016 12:52:19 GMT -5
Some food for thought, and I'm dead serious about this...
Your wife has decided that the only possible solution is to start having sterile as possible sex- missionary, under the covers, lights off, no foreplay and certainly no (gasp! shock and dismay!!!) oral sex for her. Did I miss any onerous rules of engagement? Oh yea... no kissing. Although a peck on the cheek, in the heat of passion or perhaps after you climax might be ok.
And somehow that will bootstrap her into a loving wife.
There are a number of very sexually frustrated women here that all tell the same story. Their refusing husbands neglect them, and in the rare event that they could be coerced into sex, it was always quite unsatisfactory. Missionary, unwilling to give them foreplay, much less oral sex (gross!). No affection before, during or after, no kissing, no stroking. Nothing that might get them excited, much less give them a satisfactory experience. Stick it in, cum, and then roll over and go to sleep. It is all quite obviously quite passive aggressive- you want sex? Here it is... careful what you wish for...
After years of this, most or all of these women are totally repulsed by even the idea of having sex with their refusers, should they actually offer it up again.
In the greatest of all ironies, your wife has carefully constructed a comprehensive set of rules of engagement that will eliminate any possibility whatsoever of her getting any more enjoyment out of your upcoming reset sex than any of those women here got. In fact, your wife demands you act exactly like those passive aggressive refusing husbands.
And you think you made progress? Sigh. You are still in the fog but nature has to take its course. Despite all this I hope I am full of shit and it all works out. I really do.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Nov 12, 2016 8:35:30 GMT -5
It strikes me as a necessary & helpful lab exercise designed to prove to yourself whether you are giving a fair chance.
I did a similar routine. I lost my shit one night & near demanded that why try making out & doing something (anything) that was for my pleasure. And it turned out awful. But it was empirical & gave me the evidence that him withholding his club-footed sexual favors was really a favor in the long run.
I told the therapist my feelings & made my decisions. I pulled back with my new knowledge & worked on my letter to him.
I was only SO sure of my decisions because I had tried (2 or 3 times) to ask him for what I needed and we had proven, to me, that he couldn't give me what I needed.
I think it's great the communication is opened up. Don't get your hopes up too high. But go through with this a few times & observe. It won't be wasted energy if it gives you useful information.
Meantime too - I thought of this at one point as the cover story while my real activity & energy was focused on improving my exit strategy.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 12, 2016 9:12:39 GMT -5
Geek Goddess and I went through the same thing. I followed my therapists advice, I went the extra mile, by setting up an intimate weekend by renting a cabin for just the two of us. Telling her," I want you to take the lead, show some initiative". She said "okay". Just that nothing answer says plenty. Her following actions in the days ahead spoke volumes. To this day those four or five sentences uncovered many painful truths.
My therapist summed it up very well. "You went above and beyond, and your wife put forth zero effort". I now ask myself this question, " who wants to put up with that, and why should I?" Hence the divorce, and a future of better things to come for everyone.
I was going to do this for you, but maybe better to try on your own. Take her list of sexual demands, put it along your list of sexual demands with your previous relationship. Compare the two.
Which one sounds like a fair give and take relationship? which one sounds like all taking and no giving, complete control?
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Post by forestsoul on Jan 26, 2017 13:04:21 GMT -5
Quick update: we are seeing a counsellor together, and sometimes solo, more regularly (~3 times month).
I am learning more about her past abuse and how it has caused her to have negative triggers when there is intimacy.
For example, she says she is attracted to me, has small impulses of sexual attraction no and then, and she does want to cuddle and touch me, yet when she senses things are getting past cuddling, she has overwhelming feelings of shame.
That shame causes her to withdraw from me. I interpret it as rejection.
So our counsellor said we are living in two different worlds. I am sexually frustrated with the situation and want more intimacy, and my wife is dealing with past abuse and body shame issues.
I am willing to work on this, but it has been very hard for me. I have my moments of empathy, but night after night of perceived rejection keeps building resentment.
For her, she says she hates feeling shame for some past abuse she doesn't fully recall. She is frightened to confront it but is determined now to do just that. I do believe her.
So we are working on building trust, on me building empathy, and she is working on accepting and casting aside her feelings of shame.
..lots of work ahead.
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Post by baza on Jan 27, 2017 0:06:09 GMT -5
This is probably going to come down to which thing she is most frightened of.
#1 - confronting her past ?
#2 - losing the marriage ?
But, #2 holds the key.
Is there any reason why she would think that the marriage is actually at risk ?
Is there a credible threat to the marriage ?
Straight up, are you prepared to put it on the line ? (there is no correct answer to this, just yours)
Have you seen that lawyer yet, and put together an exit strategy ?
See, she might conclude - reasonably enough - that given that you have stayed this far, that you are ok with the situation.
And from that position, there is no credible threat to the marriage.
Therefore, she need not worry about that, nor fear it. Nor give it priority.
Until such time that she regards the threat of losing her marriage as the bigger fear, it will remain the lesser fear.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 27, 2017 1:10:14 GMT -5
Pardon my cynicism, but I think I've read one too many stories about women that discover their past abuse and body shame, just as the ball and chain is snapped into place on some poor bastard's ankle. Sometimes it's a wedding ring, but usually a child. Seemingly never between the first date and their wedding. And certainly never with some prior relationship. It's not like you met in your freshman year in high school, right?
As long as you are focused on building empathy she has no motivation to solve the problem. Nor your therapist, happily billing away at $200/hr to solve an insolvable problem. And as long as your therapist keeps you focused on empathy, the revenue stream is assured.
It would be interesting to ask your therapist how many similar cases of sex aversion they have PERSONALLY brought to a satisfactory conclusion for the refused. Your therapist will surely answer "every case is different", which is the same avoidance and DARVO you get from your wife. You might be persistent, and it is safe to assume the real answer is ZERO. And if that's the case, your therapist has no more personal experience SOLVING sex aversion cases than any random stranger on the street.
Or ask your therapist if they are willing to give you a money back guarantee on success. Surely they will tell you that is too risky. To which you might ask why you are assuming that risk, betting not just an hour a week of one's time but your entire life.
Just food for thought, my friend. I wish you luck. I hope i'm all wrong and you report success in a few months. It will be a first here.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 27, 2017 1:12:50 GMT -5
Nothing - none of this crap. Therapy, talks, deals, calendars, date night, scented candles, threats, a break - none of it even gets to a starting line until the marriage is in a place of imminent, real threat.
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Post by forestsoul on Jan 27, 2017 3:44:15 GMT -5
I really value everyone's opinions and insights. Thanks for your input.
I can tell you I have been teeter-tottering for the past while; call it quits, or try to work it out? Hence, "do I hope?"
I have confronted my wife and counsellor about me working on becoming more empathetic simply acts to suppress my needs and elevate hers. The answer (as I feebly understand it) is that unless I am an empathetic person, she cannot have hope of success to recover.
Well, that to me sounds like manipulation, a dangling of the carrot, if you will, and I have given it some thought.
It does make sense that I need to be supportive of her recovery if there is a chance of success, and not use passive aggressive tactics or push her away (counter-refusal). At the same time, will all this work lead to anything?
Basically, I am realizing that I am not the priority in this endeavour. Naturally, I get upset at not being the priority in my own life.
To that end, discussions are getting more focused, in that I state that I refuse to live a sexless life. I refuse to be married to someone who cannot be naked in front of me. Etc..
I will not suppress my sexuality, desires and needs because someone has issues with theirs.
I will stop being concerned with their "why" and stand firm on finding what I know will bring me happiness.
I have experienced it before, that sexual openness, so I know what I am missing and know what I am after.
I am fully aware of how selfish this sounds. I have no problem standing up for myself if I feel my life is being taken from me in some form or another. Sexlessness qualifies as having a huge part of my life taken away.
With all of that having already been discussed with my wife, and more that I cannot remember right now, we are trying to move forward together.
There is still anger and resentment, but we are giving this a chance.
I have not spoken to a lawyer, but I have researched a few. I am also trying to get informed about legal divorce agreements, how custody would work, support payments, etc.
Divorce, of course, is the last thing I want to happen for the sake of our kids, but they are not seeing the best side of their dad or mom at this point. I am also thinking of future arrangement concerning them.
Thanks again for providing an outside perspective.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 27, 2017 10:43:55 GMT -5
Nothing - none of this crap. Therapy, talks, deals, calendars, date night, scented candles, threats, a break - none of it even gets to a starting line until the marriage is in a place of imminent, real threat. Very true! My ex was not authentically considering to change, improve, go to counseling, etc. until I told him I wanted a divorce and that I had talked to an attorney. By then it was too late. I was completely done and I understood better then him the reality of the situation: in a nutshell - he didn't want sex with me. It's a simple concept and very freeing. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 27, 2017 10:52:49 GMT -5
I really value everyone's opinions and insights. Thanks for your input. I can tell you I have been teeter-tottering for the past while; call it quits, or try to work it out? Hence, "do I hope?" I have confronted my wife and counsellor about me working on becoming more empathetic simply acts to suppress my needs and elevate hers. The answer (as I feebly understand it) is that unless I am an empathetic person, she cannot have hope of success to recover. Well, that to me sounds like manipulation, a dangling of the carrot, if you will, and I have given it some thought. It does make sense that I need to be supportive of her recovery if there is a chance of success, and not use passive aggressive tactics or push her away (counter-refusal). At the same time, will all this work lead to anything? Basically, I am realizing that I am not the priority in this endeavour. Naturally, I get upset at not being the priority in my own life. To that end, discussions are getting more focused, in that I state that I refuse to live a sexless life. I refuse to be married to someone who cannot be naked in front of me. Etc.. I will not suppress my sexuality, desires and needs because someone has issues with theirs. I will stop being concerned with their "why" and stand firm on finding what I know will bring me happiness. I have experienced it before, that sexual openness, so I know what I am missing and know what I am after. I am fully aware of how selfish this sounds. I have no problem standing up for myself if I feel my life is being taken from me in some form or another. Sexlessness qualifies as having a huge part of my life taken away. With all of that having already been discussed with my wife, and more that I cannot remember right now, we are trying to move forward together. There is still anger and resentment, but we are giving this a chance. I have not spoken to a lawyer, but I have researched a few. I am also trying to get informed about legal divorce agreements, how custody would work, support payments, etc. Divorce, of course, is the last thing I want to happen for the sake of our kids, but they are not seeing the best side of their dad or mom at this point. I am also thinking of future arrangement concerning them. Thanks again for providing an outside perspective. The empathetic thing sounds like a catch 22. Reading your post triggered the inner geek in me because a very very long time ago I used to be into computer programming and your post made me think of an infinite loop built into a computer program. There's even such thing as a conditional loop which can lead to an infinite loop. Everything you wrote seems very fair to both of you. I guess my advice would be to warn you about recognizing that you are living in an infinite loop. Of course there's always the ESC button. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 27, 2017 11:57:28 GMT -5
I have confronted my wife and counsellor about me working on becoming more empathetic simply acts to suppress my needs and elevate hers. The answer (as I feebly understand it) is that unless I am an empathetic person, she cannot have hope of success to recover. Well, that to me sounds like manipulation, a dangling of the carrot, if you will, and I have given it some thought. It does make sense that I need to be supportive of her recovery if there is a chance of success, and not use passive aggressive tactics or push her away (counter-refusal). At the same time, will all this work lead to anything? Basically, I am realizing that I am not the priority in this endeavour. Ah, the shell game. Here's the trick: Does her recovery = a return to sexual desire with you? We know that's the hope. Is it the likelihood though, in clinical practice? Counselor 2 set to work fixing "our communication" and we managed to get along miles better with great cooperation and functionality - but still no sex. I asked him, "Is this a normal result? To achieve a partnership like this, but still no sex?" He was disarmingly detailed, clear, and clinical in his answer. "Yes. That's is a frequent result and not a surprising one." TWO YEARS. If the goal is now for her to explore some conjectured abuse in her past, then the place for this is likely individual counseling. If the problem, as with Mrs. Aprocrypha, is that she doesn't desire her spouse but acquiesces occasionally despite her lack of desire, then the effect will FEEL the same as unwilling coercion toward sex, so no conjectured past abuse or even actual abuse is needed. YOU wear the face of her abuser. As the counselor said in his only other brutally candid expression, "I've seen this before. How do you come back from that to restore sexual expression with a person who is wearing the face of an abuser?" Counselor 3, responding to Mrs A's complaint about feeling "sexual pressure" (the reason we were sitting there) assured her by casually throwing me under the bus. She jokingly said I could "take the pressure off", assured my wife that I could easily just jerk myself into the toilet if I needed sexual relief. Yes, as if I was taking a crap. Amazingly, she was surprised when I responded negatively, and then asked me if I was serious about saving the marriage. I explained what she already knew, which is that we had already been to years of counseling, after years of celibacy, years of enthusiastic accommodation and appeasement, years of working on and improving other aspects of our relationship and myself, even getting a vasectomy myself under the idea that "The Pill" was making her crazy, years of tolerating and even supporting her independent sexual exploration - and so there was going to be a necessary limit to the heroic measures taken in animating this corpse. |
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Post by forestsoul on Jan 27, 2017 14:50:33 GMT -5
Wow apocrypha, counsellor 3 sounds terrible!
We have a counsellor that deals especially with abuse victims and couples who are dealing with issues like ours. She validated everything I'm feeling and said how it's incredibly common for those feelings to come forth. It was a great thing for my wife and I to hear.
Of course, my wife's side is seen as valid as well. I have to believe it's valid or there is no point to proceed.
I have yet to ask for a success rate in these cases, but it's been on my mind for a while. The counsellor did say that it will take some time to reverse ingrained negative thoughts dealing with shame. So...
Yes bballgirl, an infinite loop is what it feels like. I am looking for a break in the loop, but so far not much has changed.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 27, 2017 15:46:56 GMT -5
I'm not sure if I agree with the assessment here of Apocrypha 's counselor #3. Her assessment was honest and to the point. If *he* wanted to save the marriage *he* needed to consign himself to jerking off in the bathroom. I believe that is fully consistent with the general consensus of this forum. Am I wrong on that point? Now, she may just be a cold fish feminist cunt herself, and probably a refuser at home too, and even a charter member of AVEN to boot, and got the right answer for all the wrong reasons, or... she may just be the most honest and knowledgeable of the 3 counselors. Your call Apocrypha ...  forestsoul , the most important question you have right now, aside from questions for a lawyer, are the documented chances of success that YOUR WIFE'S counselor has in solving sex aversion cases related to so called abuse, to the satisfaction of the formerly refused spouse. And since you are not the patient, what your counselor calls a success may be nothing related to what you might call success. So sharpen your interrogation skills, I have a feeling you will need them. That was interesting stuff from apocrypha's counselor about the face of abuse on the poor shmuck refused husband. And honestly, it fits perfectly what that room full of sex averse people over on AVEN say among themselves. They too consider spousal pestering for sex to be "abusive" and you will see the term used widely there in that context. Might explain why so many sex averse spouses suddenly discover "past abuse" when they terminate the sexual part of their relationship. Of course, if "pressuring for sex" is abusive, what more pressure could you possibly bring on a refusing spouse then engaging the services of a professional to put them under an interrogation light and deliver the highest pressure possible in an attempt to "fix them". If *I* can't convince my spouse to fuck me, I'll get a professional to do it. As absurd as that sounds, it may not be all that absurd to the refuser. Just another spin on the idea that you can't make someone fix themselves. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 27, 2017 15:56:23 GMT -5
Wow apocrypha, counsellor 3 sounds terrible! We have a counsellor that deals especially with abuse victims and couples who are dealing with issues like ours. She validated everything I'm feeling and said how it's incredibly common for those feelings to come forth. It was a great thing for my wife and I to hear. Of course, my wife's side is seen as valid as well. I have to believe it's valid or there is no point to proceed. I have yet to ask for a success rate in these cases, but it's been on my mind for a while. The counsellor did say that it will take some time to reverse ingrained negative thoughts dealing with shame. So... Yes bballgirl, an infinite loop is what it feels like. I am looking for a break in the loop, but so far not much has changed. If nothing else set a time table for yourself. Do that for YOU. Even if it's January 2018, what's one year? Set a date and prepare yourself for the rest of your life whatever you want that to look like. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 27, 2017 18:41:29 GMT -5
We have a counsellor that deals especially with abuse victims and couples who are dealing with issues like ours. She validated everything I'm feeling and said how it's incredibly common for those feelings to come forth. It was a great thing for my wife and I to hear. Of course, my wife's side is seen as valid as well. I have to believe it's valid or there is no point to proceed. I have yet to ask for a success rate in these cases, but it's been on my mind for a while. The counsellor did say that it will take some time to reverse ingrained negative thoughts dealing with shame. So... It was validating to hear much the same from counselor 2. But this is where the shell game happens. Most couples therapy springs from individual therapy -basically holding up a mirror. It's notoriously ineffective in therapeutic practice with couples that reach this stage. The shell game is in phrasing the goal in terms of "reversing the ingrained thoughts dealing with shame". That might be accomplished. Let's unpack the assumptions though: -That the abuse has anything to do with the behaviour of not having sex. -That shame prevents the sex. There are many people who suffer abuse and enjoy sex. Or who employ or channel the feeling of shame toward sexual enterprises, rather than away. Within the kink community, there is a huge subset of men and women who work very hard to explore trust with each other through the enactment of shame.
And the big one, the assumption that reversing those thoughts on shame means that normal desire, if it appears, will be moulded to you. If no desire exists in the first place, the restoration of her sexuality doesn't necessarily means it's going to land on you, or that it is a viable feeling in the context of marriage for her. |
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