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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:47:12 GMT -5
That's not what the article, or Saul of Tarsus for that matter implies. The implication is that it should always be the man who leads and the woman who submits. Why? It could be regarded as a rule of thumb. Kinda like the rule that the Umpire is always right in a tennis match. It saves time and energy!  And too much of that kind of thinking is how you get people like me, who tend to rebel at rules and have to be persuaded that occasionally, rules can be useful. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 15:50:46 GMT -5
It could be regarded as a rule of thumb. Kinda like the rule that the Umpire is always right in a tennis match. It saves time and energy! Seriously? You want to be in a relationship where the rule of thumb is in cases of doubt the man is always right? Why?  ? I get that it saves time and energy but at what cost! That's how my family was growing up - Dad was always right, he always had to get his way about everything. That's why I tended to stay out of his way, if I ever wanted to have anything the way *I* wanted it. This is how I react to authoritarian people, especially men. I may "submit" outwardly, if they have managed to scare me, or convince me it's not worth the hassle to argue. But this is also how I learned to be very devious, sneaky, and underhanded. If you are going to impose negative consequences on me for being honest, then you don't get to bitch about it when you catch me lying or sneaking around. You can't have it both ways. |
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Post by RumRunner on Apr 17, 2016 15:54:59 GMT -5
That's not what the article, or Saul of Tarsus for that matter implies. The implication is that it should always be the man who leads and the woman who submits. Why? It could be regarded as a rule of thumb. Kinda like the rule that the Umpire is always right in a tennis match. It saves time and energy! Most things that save time and energy has a huge price tag to it. I could wash my camper myself for next to nothing or I could spend $250 to have someone else do it to save me time and energy. There is a cost, the price tag in this situation would be your freedom to think for yourself. I think that price tag is much greater than having someone else wash my camper! I do believe that anyone who submits completely to their spouse loses their own identity and becomes a slave of that person. I do not believe in slavery even in marriage, even for religious reasons. If one wants to do this, that's fine but when they find themselves in a bad situation they need to remember what got them there. |
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Post by RumRunner on Apr 17, 2016 16:06:10 GMT -5
Seriously? You want to be in a relationship where the rule of thumb is in cases of doubt the man is always right? Why? ? I get that it saves time and energy but at what cost! That's how my family was growing up - Dad was always right, he always had to get his way about everything. That's why I tended to stay out of his way, if I ever wanted to have anything the way *I* wanted it. This is how I react to authoritarian people, especially men. I may "submit" outwardly, if they have managed to scare me, or convince me it's not worth the hassle to argue. But this is also how I learned to be very devious, sneaky, and underhanded. If you are going to impose negative consequences on me for being honest, then you don't get to bitch about it when you catch me lying or sneaking around. You can't have it both ways. I am willing to bet that dad wasn't always right, it was just that his word goes like it or not.  I am so glad I wasn't raised that way! |
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Post by Rhapsodee on Apr 17, 2016 16:12:38 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 16:21:44 GMT -5
Well, you know....IMHO, if it's a really good relationship, I think the man and I would agree on a lot of things in the first place, right? No, we wouldn't always think exactly alike. But I would hope that on the big, important life issues, we would be in agreement.
And if that was the case, "submitting" would rarely have to be an issue.
I would really hope that before I did something as expensive and full of expectations and responsibilities as getting married, that I would first figure out if the man and I were basically compatible in terms of our values and beliefs.
Believe it or not, my ex-refuser and I were compatible that way. I don't kid myself that "all was well but the sex." But we had very similar values and beliefs. That's one of the reasons why the disintegration of the relationship hurt me so badly. However, it may also be a reason why we're still on good terms.
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Post by Rhapsodee on Apr 17, 2016 16:28:50 GMT -5
Why do Christians have to make everything so complicated? Everything is all about control. You put God in a book so you can control him. You use that book to control yourselves and others. If you can't have control, you deem that person lost and in need of saving. You want to save them so you can control them. So much damage is done that is justified by the need for control.
I believe that I am a reasonable person. I am always questioning myself. I don't have perfect control over myself but I do have the ability to stop and listen to a voice of reason. Do I submit? No. But I do defer.
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Post by RumRunner on Apr 17, 2016 16:36:30 GMT -5
Why do Christians have to make everything so complicated? Everything is all about control. You put God in a book so you can control him. You use that book to control yourselves and others. If you can't have control, you deem that person lost and in need of saving. You want to save them so you can control them. So much damage is done that is justified by the need for control. I believe that I am a reasonable person. I am always questioning myself. I don't have perfect control over myself but I do have the ability to stop and listen to a voice of reason. Do I submit? No. But I do defer. Wow, I couldn't have said it better! |
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Post by DryCreek on Apr 17, 2016 17:28:44 GMT -5
If everyone just agrees then how the hell is anyone going to have makeup sex??!!! If I knew there'd be makeup sex, I'd probably start the fights... I've never had it either, but I hear it can be amazing! |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 17, 2016 17:37:29 GMT -5
Why do Christians have to make everything so complicated? Everything is all about control. You put God in a book so you can control him. You use that book to control yourselves and others. If you can't have control, you deem that person lost and in need of saving. You want to save them so you can control them. So much damage is done that is justified by the need for control. I believe that I am a reasonable person. I am always questioning myself. I don't have perfect control over myself but I do have the ability to stop and listen to a voice of reason. Do I submit? No. But I do defer. You use the word " everything", on people you don't know or have yet to experience.You have no merrit. You generalize many people you have never met, by the actions of one, or a few. So who is doing the damage? Gods word is about opening up yourself into a new way of thinking. When you study God's word you learn how Jesus condemned such logic. The kings, the priests, the pharasies, the sadjesees the ones that wanted him to just " shut up" and not face reality. The ones who condemned him to death. you are not sounding very reasonable, I am questioning your judgement. And your ability to listen to a voice of reason. Do you submit? Yes. Every day. You pay taxes. You stay within speed limits.you submit to a police officer.you submit to your boss. You pick up after yourself and put trash away. You submit to your teacher. You submitted to your coach. You submit to your teacher. When you are riding in a car with someone else, you submit to there driving. When you eat food at a resteraunt you submit to there cooking. When you buy things at the store you submit to the total at the register. when the Bible says " that a queralsome wife is like a dripping faucet." Does it mean only a wife. Every human can testify that a queralsome man, woman, wife, husband, child, neighbor, relative, boss, politician, etc... Can be like a dripping faucet! this was about people who are cursed with a desire to control. And have an iron will against submission. Even a person who isolates themselves from others, who stays away from anything new, or any arguments, is in control of there circumstances and surroundings. Making them a controlling person. Control is a very big factor in marriage, and should not be flushed away due to the term " Christian". I personally don't call myself that, I prefer Christ follower. And boy do I fail, daily! If you believe the church is full of hypocrites, that's okay. You need to find a place that says, " join us hypocrite, what's one more!" I found such a place. i hope you are doing well, I haven't heard from you in a while! I am glad that we can agree to disagree at times! |
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Post by unmatched on Apr 17, 2016 17:55:16 GMT -5
"Picture this. You’re at the mall, and you see a husband and wife who are obviously having an argument. Their body language is terse and their tone is sharp. The wife looks frustrated and angry, as she folds her arms across her chest and turns her back toward her husband. Should you, at that moment, approach this wife and suggest she submit to her husband? I know I wouldn’t. But this is exactly what God does in his Word. When I am the angry, terse wife, crossing my arms—convinced that my husband just doesn’t understand, God whispers softly, “submit.” But often, as that word clanks against my iron will, I bristle. It feels degrading and insulting. I’m to submit, simply because I’m a woman? How can that be right?" This article is not about people in general. It is advice to married Christian women on their Biblical duty to defer to their husband. The "control" here is nothing more than having your own mind and will. That's a bad thing. If that somehow benefits you, very well, but this is the last thing a person of either gender in a SM needs to hear. " But often ,as that word clanks against my iron will, I bristle." She is cursed with the strong desire to control! That is more than having your own mind and will, that is a bad thing. If you read the next article in the series in The Peaceful Wife, you may understand, that no man wants a non thinking, non acting wife! Something else to think about. A person who claims, " hey I agree with everybody, hey I am easy to get along with, hey I will do what ever I am told" is also a " controlling person. " how so!" You ask? The activity of the new disrupts the normal. This disrupts the people who are in control. We don't like being in control. Your in control of yourself when your painting yourself into a corner. Your hanging onto something you love, " normality"! Like that person who for 18 yrs has been going to work and sits in the same cubical, he is in control of it. Please don't talk about things that you don't know about first hand! It's called gossip! You hate to think! I'm sure you buy Penthouse, just for the articles, so it can help you think! GC, I think you are being a bit unfair here. I totally get that what resonated with you from this article was about controlling people sometimes having to let go of control in order to allow something beyond their own fucked up thinking into their lives for a change. And I absolutely agree with you and I think this is highly relevant for a lot of SMs. But I also read both those articles (twice), and the overall message is that women in particular have a strong desire to control their husbands and need to learn to submit to their leadership because that is what God has asked us to do. To quote from the second article, “Submission refers to a wife’s divine calling to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts. It is not an absolute surrender of her will. Rather, we speak of her disposition to yield to her husband’s guidance and her inclination to follow his leadership." And a bit later it says, "From this position of great strength in Christ, we submit to our husbands. This means, we honor their God-given leadership and we treat them with genuine respect because they are our husbands and because God commands that we do this." You might agree with this, but not everybody does. And it isn't fair to cherry pick the bits that are good in these articles and then complain when people take exception to the rest of it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2016 18:00:08 GMT -5
Seriously? You want to be in a relationship where the rule of thumb is in cases of doubt the man is always right? Why? ? I get that it saves time and energy but at what cost! That's how my family was growing up - Dad was always right, he always had to get his way about everything. That's why I tended to stay out of his way, if I ever wanted to have anything the way *I* wanted it. This is how I react to authoritarian people, especially men. I may "submit" outwardly, if they have managed to scare me, or convince me it's not worth the hassle to argue. But this is also how I learned to be very devious, sneaky, and underhanded. If you are going to impose negative consequences on me for being honest, then you don't get to bitch about it when you catch me lying or sneaking around. You can't have it both ways. Yeah, being raised in a household with an authoritarian father was enough authoritarianism for one lifetime. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 17, 2016 18:29:15 GMT -5
Thanks unmatched! You are correct, about me being a bit unfair. It is quite possible, I make mistakes, I don't speak very well, I need to quote others who word things better. I am trying to not be a passive hidden person. I am trying to take on more of a leadership role. There will always be times when people agree and disagree. I would prefer others to take both articles and dissect it word for word, sentence by sentence. Many verses from the bible can have much more strength and meaning when you study the context of it. Who was talking to who, who was standing in the background, what happened before and after, what were the customs then etc...
So when people throw it out immediately , and take on a very narrow point of view, it's hard to give there opinion much credit. Not everyone has to agree, I try not to be that closed minded myself. Allow me to add the part from the bible that tells me, " husbands respect your wives, and wives respect your husbands" from the same God.
I have fallen into the trap of " happy wife happy life" and submitted too much. I am working on more of a balance for myself in the future. Thanks again friend!
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Post by Rhapsodee on Apr 17, 2016 19:46:50 GMT -5
Why do Christians have to make everything so complicated? Everything is all about control. You put God in a book so you can control him. You use that book to control yourselves and others. If you can't have control, you deem that person lost and in need of saving. You want to save them so you can control them. So much damage is done that is justified by the need for control. I believe that I am a reasonable person. I am always questioning myself. I don't have perfect control over myself but I do have the ability to stop and listen to a voice of reason. Do I submit? No. But I do defer. You use the word " everything", on people you don't know or have yet to experience.You have no merrit. You generalize many people you have never met, by the actions of one, or a few. So who is doing the damage? Gods word is about opening up yourself into a new way of thinking. When you study God's word you learn how Jesus condemned such logic. The kings, the priests, the pharasies, the sadjesees the ones that wanted him to just " shut up" and not face reality. The ones who condemned him to death. you are not sounding very reasonable, I am questioning your judgement. And your ability to listen to a voice of reason. Do you submit? Yes. Every day. You pay taxes. You stay within speed limits.you submit to a police officer.you submit to your boss. You pick up after yourself and put trash away. You submit to your teacher. You submitted to your coach. You submit to your teacher. When you are riding in a car with someone else, you submit to there driving. When you eat food at a resteraunt you submit to there cooking. When you buy things at the store you submit to the total at the register. when the Bible says " that a queralsome wife is like a dripping faucet." Does it mean only a wife. Every human can testify that a queralsome man, woman, wife, husband, child, neighbor, relative, boss, politician, etc... Can be like a dripping faucet! this was about people who are cursed with a desire to control. And have an iron will against submission. Even a person who isolates themselves from others, who stays away from anything new, or any arguments, is in control of there circumstances and surroundings. Making them a controlling person. Control is a very big factor in marriage, and should not be flushed away due to the term " Christian". I personally don't call myself that, I prefer Christ follower. And boy do I fail, daily! If you believe the church is full of hypocrites, that's okay. You need to find a place that says, " join us hypocrite, what's one more!" I found such a place. i hope you are doing well, I haven't heard from you in a while! I am glad that we can agree to disagree at times! You do realize I'm ADHD, right? You just made it all so complicated that you lost me? . Tell you whatt, I'll choose to err on the side of love and vow to not intentionally harm anther person. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 17, 2016 20:00:26 GMT -5
Hi Rhapsody! I'll take that as a compliment. I have been called ADHD before. Rarely can I speak well enough to sound " complicated". My wife uses the excuse, ( I don't know what to say!) to avoid and control things. Hope you are doing well. Time to take the cover off the pool here.
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? I get that it saves time and energy but at what cost!
