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Post by doneanddone on Jun 28, 2017 15:52:47 GMT -5
I have a few different topics to speak to: 1) I'm calling bullshit on your wife. The fear of pregnancy is an excuse not a reason. She doesn't like sex. I doubt your sex life is going to turn around with her. 2) you are a counter refuser if you don't want sex with her. 3) go after what you want for yourself and live an authentic life. I must be completely ignorant in the area of counter refuser because I am looking at this in a completely different light. The W made the decision to not have sex for multiple reasons right or wrong she made that decision for the both of us taking me out of discussion making it a one way or no way issue. My concerns and thoughts about moving forward are if and when the time comes that she is now revived and wants to take a more heighten interest in our sex life together, will it be because I am so accustomed to her rejection and refusals for so many years that my attitude will be....."mehh...I don't feel like it with you....but with (insert female who is a willing participant name here) I am" I guess I've looked at my wife being a refuser in the sense of: 1. A refuser has excuses and fictitious reasons other than they just don't want to have sex (no reasons needed, you don't want to have sex with someone you don't have sex with them). Sex is a state of mind and being. I don't have to have a reason not to have sex. If we aren't compatible or on the same page emotionally we aren't having sex. I think I'd be better off if she would just come out and tell me she doesn't want to have sex with me because she doesn't feel like it or that she isn't in love anymore. BUT she says all those things we refusee's hang onto like...... "I enjoy sex." "I enjoy sex with you, my husband." "I want to have sex with you, my husband." "I love when we have sex and are close and intimate together." blah blah blah blah...... So if there is another type of refuser out there, I am not accustomed to that type of refuser. Me being a counter refuser IMO for me and my twisted thought process, I would have to come up with some crazy ass reasons and excuses to justify not whipping it out when and if she truly wants to make a run at re-patching the gaping hole in our marriage.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 28, 2017 15:16:18 GMT -5
I would probably agree with @bbgirl and the others who say that it will probably not work. But it might. If I might suggest anything, try it and go slow. You have built up a lot of resentment towards her, and she probably has a lot of anxiety over you. If it's going to work, you are going to have to find out what attraction brought you two together. I tried it with my wife, and it didn't work out. When we first dated, we made out listening to Simply Red. I booked a nice weekend at a bed and breakfast complete with a hot tub in the bedroom. I put on Simply Red, then she told me that she didn't like their music. I should have ended our marriage then and there. Simply Red......brother you had me at Simply Red..... lol
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 28, 2017 15:11:39 GMT -5
One can't accurately predict the future - particularly when it involves another person. But you can make some pretty obvious estimations based on what has gone on in the past. Based on the history you have divulged in your stories so far Brother doneanddone , by 28th September 2017, in 3 months time, your missus' "why" will be exposed for the bullshit it was / is, and you will have a sex life identical to what you have now. The only difference will be that you will by then be sterile. I am actually very anti gambling, but even I would be prepared to make a modest wager on that outcome. But, I would sincerely like to lose on that bet. The house always wins....and I am prepared for that. I just am taking the most effective road possible and that is I am addressing her concerns and issues head on. And I agree it is bullshit but hey......I'm prepped for the next chapter where ever that takes me.....
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 28, 2017 15:08:23 GMT -5
Those same "obstacles" that she can't overcome where there when she agreed to marry you. Like most of us, you where mislead. So why should she have to change anything now? Well...not so much. After we got married the sex was still there and the frequency was still adequate to NOT be considered a SM but I did notice a slow decline in her willingness and approach to bedtime rituals. We still got our freak on when we wanted it real bad and when there were periods of no sex she would actually be the one to point it out which then quickly was resolved by the ol' quickie in the kitchen or deck or wherever we happen to be at that time. The real change came when we found out we were going to be parents. And ever since then we have not been on the same page. It has taken its toll on me so I'm just glad I am still able to drum up enough confidence in myself to pursue some level of sanity knowing I did or am willing to do whatever it takes to right the ship and leave the big D as the last resort.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 27, 2017 14:35:42 GMT -5
Quantity first then quality.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 27, 2017 14:19:23 GMT -5
In my journey - I got to the point of demanding foreplay and we set a date and he went through with it. I was so "stopped up" so to speak that I practically exploded despite actual quality of technical skills. Anyway - in after thoughts, I realized it was one of those: be careful what you ask for, you just might get it. Yeah. I got exactly, literally, technically by all rights, what I had demanded. And it was a little disappointing. Okay so a few days go by - mind you that had been the first sexual physical contact in about 3 yrs - and a few nights later, he comes onto me again - and I (hate to admit) thought it could be better, so tried to go for it. And it was even worse than the first time. I had to talk to him a few days later and tell him that it felt too weird after so long without that kind of relationship. I wasn't sure I really knew what I wanted or needed even though I'd previously been so adamant. Welcome, counter-refusal stage. Good luck navigating this phase. I think you need to go into it with an open mind that it COULD work and address a true core issue. But I agree with DryCreek that you can't set the stepping stones too far too fast. It will need to be incremental progress back towards each other, most likely. So that it can be trusted. Proven, even, as you go along. I believe it's never too late if a person really wants to change. I believe my Ex had absolutely NO desire to be the one making any changes. So I changed addresses. But if you want it to work out and she really meant what she said and tries to do the work on the relationship needed, then I think it's not out of the realm of possibility. That is not my experience, but I think it COULD happen. I see your point. Being a counter refuser never crossed my mind but would it be counter refuser if I just wasn't interested in sex with W but was interested in sex with others? See to me my W has been the refuser with a laundry list of excuses other than the simple "I'm not interested in sex with you". Afraid to get pregnant, to stressed, unhappy with how she looks, uncomfortable with kids in the house, too tired.....on and on and on. But never was it so easy as she just wasn't into sex with me anymore. It was every other reason. So going slow and taking our time to rebuild a part of our marriage that was there but then vanished, is going to take time. Maybe my concern is IF I am at that point of just not interested in sex with my W but am very much interested in sex as a normal part of my life, being looked at as a counter refuser would be a little unfair IMO. I wouldn't drum up a list of reasons or excuses as to why I don't or wouldn't want to have sex with my W. It would be plain and simple, I've lost interest in sex with my W due to long term high expectations of wanting to have intimacy with her only to be let down with the lowest of expectations. Like I said, I am numb of it all. Just shear physical friction alone is enough to get my soldier standing at attention. That being said if she is just there for the act itself and not into it as she says or claims she wants to be it'll be pretty tough to convince me otherwise. You even hinted at that you knew almost right away and it didn't sound as if you were going from 0 to 100 your first time back in the saddle so..... Regardless, I am excited for the next chapter of my life. This was something that I have been thinking about since I heard her (the W) tell me the very first time that she didn't want to have sex for fear of getting pregnant again. That was all she kept claiming. Now, in a few short weeks, we'll find out if that still holds true. That's not a high expectation, it's just a validation or exposure of what she says. Thanks for the feedback.....!
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 27, 2017 13:55:51 GMT -5
You've taken a significant step to address what she claims to be a concern. It may just be an excuse, to be replaced by another; or perhaps it was legitimate. She might not even know. The only advice I can offer you is to have low expectations. It's the most effective way to ensure you're not disappointed and discouraged, and your attitude will be a key ingredient going forward. Not to say you should forever leave the bar low - you still aspire to a goal, but raise your expectations of her as she demonstrates more engagement. In other words, don't expect her to take off like a race horse - that expectation will just frustrate you both. Give her an opportunity to exceed your expectations. Thank you. That gives a different perspective than I had looked for before now. I am keeping the expectations to a minimum as I do see this going rather slowly than full throttle as I mentioned earlier. I can already tell she is a little hesitant. It's almost like someone who knows they have to do something they don't want to do but are going to do it anyways just to get it done. I don't know, we'll see. But I am keeping my emotions and expectations in check for a while. Thanks for the feedback.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 27, 2017 11:49:47 GMT -5
So I've been out of pocket for a bit dealing with a recent extraordinary life changing event. About 3 weeks back I had a vasectomy. It was something heavily discussed between my W and I. We both are comfortable with the decision and we are now moving into a new phase of our SM. There is still a window of time alternative protection must be used until I am deemed to be "shooting blanks" so the initial inaugural romp in the hay has not taken place yet but it has been circled on the calendar as the time to attempt to refresh and rest our marriage. I am looking forward to the new beginning and am very optimistic that things will change for the better in this one area of our marriage. Here comes the down side to my post......
I have become so numb from the rejection of initiating intimacy and accustomed and familiar with not having a high expectation when it comes to intimate contact with my W that when it is time to go full throttle......will I even want to with her. Probably like most men and women who are the recipients of being refused we have built up a tolerance to the situation and can sniff it out miles before it occurs. Then there is the part of having to deal with a SM in the fact that while self stimulation is our primary go to for filling the void, I don't know about most but pornography and previous encounters with previous lovers comes to mind when filling the void and laying hands upon ones self so to speak.
I guess what I am trying to say here is that if there were to be a change in attitude towards sex now from my W stand point of now having no fear of getting pregnant, is it to late for her? Has our SM and her refusals pushed me so far away that sex and intimacy with HER is no longer attractive BUT sex and intimacy are still a high priority for me in my own life? Has anyone ever gotten to the point of no return only to stop on the line and contemplate what to do before making the next move? I am ready to get our marriage back on the steamy highway but I won't know until it's time but my mind seems to be leaning towards the latter which is yes, it is too late for her.
Thoughts, comments......
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 21, 2017 12:32:19 GMT -5
Please read my comments with an open mind and open heart. I by no means am trying to point fingers or place blame on any one party of the relationship you are currently in. I hate to say this but you created this monster and now it's yours to deal with. If indeed it was truly over when he wasn't doing all the things you told him he should have been doing long ago then that is when you should have made more of convincing arrangements and either physically left the relationship - i.e. moved out, or divorced. But by staying and hanging around, even in another room it created a sense of attachment that never went away. So now that he is doing and saying all the things you wanted him to so long ago, and now it means nothing, this is yours to deal with. I feel for you more than I do him because he has shown he is capable of change even if it took longer than you were willing to wait. I've read through some other comments and they say people can't change or he'll flip back to the way he was.....so on so forth. I am the opposite. I believe people can change. Everyone responds differently to every situation even if there is a greater mass that responds exactly the same to one situation there will always be one that does not respond as the greater mass. There is no shame in how you feel now vs. how you felt back when you were wanting him to respond to the situation. It does make for a difficult circumstance to move on from because you do see the change in him. But it would have been a lot less traumatic back then to have ripped the band-aid off and let it heal. Now that it has had a chance to "heal" pulling that band-aid off now will make it worse. But again, that's just how I see the situation you have described. I don't mean to offend and by no means do I think you are wrong but this is one persons open and honest opinion. Good luck. I appreciate your response. I'm fully aware of the part I played in this and why I am in this situation. I know I created this monster and I have to deal with it. I truly wish I could have done a million things differently from tlhe beginning but I was a different person then. I was naive, .trusting and very insecure to have put up with what I did. I wish I could have ripped the bandaids off many many many years ago. I wish I could have been a different person. I wasn't. I'm far from perfect. I feel guilt for not leaving and letting him find his way. That is a really bad feeling. With that said I forgive and love myself. He's changed and I can see he can take care of himself. I saved his life from a house fire I got him to stop drinking and he's close to being off prescription drugs I helped him with a lot of stuff. It's untrue about my not caring that he's doing house chores and running and suddenly askin me to do things with him. It my life is a thousand times easier than when I had no help. It won't change the fact that the distance he created caused a change in me that I can't reverse. To your main point yes i helped create this of course I have to deal with it. This definitely is a place to come and cope and vent, and get everything out there so its in your face and not just in your mind. I have found solitude and at time peace when i visit this site. I read and comment, I remember what it was like for me many years back and where I am now. I don't pretend......I can't pretend here even though it is so easy to, because if i pretend here I will pretend everywhere else in my life and there is no need for that. I am who I am and you are who you are. I wish you all the luck in the world and hope nothing but the best for you and him. You are being an open person just by telling us your story so I can't hate on that, I admire that. I support that and I support anyone going through what we all have been through to some extent. But keep coming back, reading, posting, and updating. It will and can be a great motivator and outlet to just about every problem we face...... Take care and I look forward to hearing how things are moving forward.....
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 19, 2017 14:03:54 GMT -5
My H and I had a few discussions lately. I moved into the guest bedroom a few weeks ago. He told his mom and brother he'd treated me really badly by neglecting and withdrawing sex from for 17 years. He said he wants to stay married even after I told him that I couldn't go back and that I'd changed. He is now trying everything. He has never vacuumed or done house chores and he's doing everything now. My bday was yesterday and he brought coffee in bed and showered me with gifts. He hates to go out but he went to sing karaoke with me last night and is going canoeing with me He used to not take care of the cats and dog and now he's taking care of them and taking the dog out every morning for a long hike at 5:30 am. He told me he treated me like s:&? and he had been a d/;&. Now he's on the phone with his brother saying how he used to not want to do stuff with me that he'd rather smoke weed or watch tv but now he does everything I suggest. The problem is that I no longer feel anything besides friendship for him. He read a book called Resisiting Happiness and he's taken every single word to heart and it's like he's had a personality transplant. He says he knows what the right thing to do is and we naturally want to do the right thing and bringing someone joy is so impossible and that love is a verb and that he used to resist and feel like s:?& for doing that. He said he had self loathing and guilt when he would hear me crying myself to sleep some nights. The problem is that all this came to late. He is now talking to his brother about how I taught him so much. That stuff he's reading in this book I'd told him about a long time ago. It's painful to think of leaving him but I've become numb from the emotional abuse and no longer even feel anger towards him. I left my job Wednesday and am in the process of finding a new one. Things are so weird right now. I just needed to vent. Thanks for reading. Please read my comments with an open mind and open heart. I by no means am trying to point fingers or place blame on any one party of the relationship you are currently in. I hate to say this but you created this monster and now it's yours to deal with. If indeed it was truly over when he wasn't doing all the things you told him he should have been doing long ago then that is when you should have made more of convincing arrangements and either physically left the relationship - i.e. moved out, or divorced. But by staying and hanging around, even in another room it created a sense of attachment that never went away. So now that he is doing and saying all the things you wanted him to so long ago, and now it means nothing, this is yours to deal with. I feel for you more than I do him because he has shown he is capable of change even if it took longer than you were willing to wait. I've read through some other comments and they say people can't change or he'll flip back to the way he was.....so on so forth. I am the opposite. I believe people can change. Everyone responds differently to every situation even if there is a greater mass that responds exactly the same to one situation there will always be one that does not respond as the greater mass. There is no shame in how you feel now vs. how you felt back when you were wanting him to respond to the situation. It does make for a difficult circumstance to move on from because you do see the change in him. But it would have been a lot less traumatic back then to have ripped the band-aid off and let it heal. Now that it has had a chance to "heal" pulling that band-aid off now will make it worse. But again, that's just how I see the situation you have described. I don't mean to offend and by no means do I think you are wrong but this is one persons open and honest opinion. Good luck.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 15:40:12 GMT -5
Yes, we did. We had sex on a regular basis. When we wanted to conceive that's when things changed. I don't believe that is the root cause and may have very little to our SM problem today. Since our child was born, in the past 6 years I've had sex with her maybe 7 times. There is no hand jobs, not oral, no fondling, no frisky spooning.....nothing. She claims that for her it became about getting pregnant and not enjoying each other. I never said that and as the matter of fact I've told her I never stopped enjoying it. But she does profess that her biggest reason for not wanting sex is fear of getting pregnant again. So lets try it and see if in fact that's what it is. I'm not looking past tomorrow and am going into this with little to no expectations, that way if there is a change then it was a good move. But even if there is no change, I'm still going to be happy with the decision. I'm not suggesting that her having sex when she did not want a child would result in her aversion to you. I'm observing that she wanted sex then... from you... irrespective of the risk of an unplanned child, and now it seems different. So if it didn't matter then, why now? And, as you point out - there are all kinds of things you can do with a person other than intercourse - which you are more than happy to do. So you know the overwhelming likelihood is that the goalpost will change. It could. And not to play the ping pong game or tit for tat but I am a very literal person. If you tell me the meeting starts at 9 and you aren't there and its 901, your late. So if her #1 reason which she has told me more times than i can remember is fear of getting pregnant again, I'm simply taking that possibility off the table. I honestly have given up on wanting to know what changed for her to stop wanting sex. That is where the I'm done is coming from. I don't care what her reasons are anymore. I'm now moving onto the execution phase of problem solving. Trial and error. If this doesn't produce a positive outcome for me I may try something else but the likely hood of that happening is slim and none and slim is out of town. Its just that simple for me. But I do agree anger isn't anything to lash out at someone especially your spouse.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 15:14:52 GMT -5
Wow - that just happend...! Interesting. If we were swinging, it would be an even trade and I'd be fine with it. If it was an open marriage arrangement, I'd have to stuff it. I stuffed it for a quarter century. I'm just not prepared to do that any more. Having a good partner or two or three on the side would make it bareable, though. I'll buy that. I see your position and your point. So what would they do play Farmville on Facebook or Words with Friends while you and the other Mrs. were handling business...? Just asking cause my wife is constantly on her phone with her friends....lol
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 15:09:12 GMT -5
No, you are spot on. I am at the point of no longer investing and it is her time to show what her investment will be. Other than dialog and or the act itself with the intent of continuing with dialog and having sex I am at the point of executing the next steps. I actually already have next steps in place. My SM was never about whether or not my wife loved me or was unhappy with me or my performance. She made the decision to not have sex......for the both of us without discussion first. That stands out as a big red flag. What else is she going to make decisions on without me? Which leads me to think there is some or a little dishonesty in her reasons for not wanting to have sex. Her #1 reason over and over again is she doesn't want to get pregnant again. "Condoms are not 100%" she says so that's even off the table. My "next steps in place" are getting a vasectomy. We've discussed it. We agreed to it. She is fully aware of my reasoning for getting it.....so we can have sex.....AND to cross off her #1 reason. I'm happy with that decision. I'm good with not being able to produce any children moving forward. I'm completely and utterly in love the one child I have now and am selfish and don't want another kid to have to split time with. That's just me not everyone may feel that way. SO, am I a little coo coo for getting a vasectomy, no, not in my mind. It kills two birds with one stone.....IF that's a big IF......IF the wife is completely honest about her #1 reason of not wanting to get pregnant she won't have to worry about that in a few weeks and then we shall see how much investment she has in this marriage. I've pushed my pill of chips all in with 10, J, Q, K of Spades and the A of Spades just hit the rive. Let's see if she checks, folds or calls. With this, you established clearly that you are not "done" and only that you are moving to a further or different tactic in negotiation intended to produce the result you want from her within the marriage. You aren't done. You are "just pissed". Don't send her a note telling her you are "done" when you aren't. I've been there - many of us have. Telling her "you are done" when you are not done, will succeed only in escalating the norms of your dysfunction into shrieking hyperbole. If you are good without being able to father more children going forward - including after your marriage has ended - then a vasectomy is a great idea. In the singlesphere, my former girlfriend's ex-husband had an accident that resulted in an inconvenient complication in his life. I've noticed among single women, including lesbians at or around their late 30's and early 40's - there is an interesting pattern of "last chance" intentions and behaviors that could result in pregnancies. Taking control of your reproductive intentions is helpful. But, don't do it because it's her #1 reason. I did, and it amounted to a whole lot of nothing within the marriage. It's not absurd to want a vasectomy - you have had one kid and you know what you would be in for and if you are up for it. Did she have sex with your before she was pregnant? At a time in which she did not want a child? Yes, we did. We had sex on a regular basis. When we wanted to conceive that's when things changed. I don't believe that is the root cause and may have very little to our SM problem today. Since our child was born, in the past 6 years I've had sex with her maybe 7 times. There is no hand jobs, not oral, no fondling, no frisky spooning.....nothing. She claims that for her it became about getting pregnant and not enjoying each other. I never said that and as the matter of fact I've told her I never stopped enjoying it. But she does profess that her biggest reason for not wanting sex is fear of getting pregnant again. So lets try it and see if in fact that's what it is. I'm not looking past tomorrow and am going into this with little to no expectations, that way if there is a change then it was a good move. But even if there is no change, I'm still going to be happy with the decision.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 14:41:43 GMT -5
I am not sure if the first post is the letter, but I can tell you that approaching a refuser in anger will probably backfire. As in, "See? This is why I don't want sex with you! You are just too angry!" But I do suggest that you cool down & let her know that the marriage is not sustainable as it is. If she wants to continue in celibacy, she certainly has the right do do so, but she does not have the right to imprison you in a celibate marriage. I would say you could just calmly tell her that she has 30, 60, or 90 days, or any time period you think is reasonable, to turn things around. If she does not, you will assume that she does not want to remain married to you. That is all I can think of. So far this seems to be the most considerable approach. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone and it could be just a timing thing for me at the time I read them but being in a calmer state of mind does make sense event though I am boiling on the inside. I've mentioned this already a few times today on here in other forums but I already have a plan in place to put my SM to the litmus test and figure this out in more than likely by the end of the year. Obviously things take time so I give myself plenty of time for things to change in the positive or progress to a split which would take even longer so the end of the year is a good mark for now.
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Post by doneanddone on Jun 9, 2017 14:36:08 GMT -5
To iron hammer and others considering swinging: what if your allegedly low libido spouse is low lol bids only as concerns you? What if the type of person they are sexually attracted to is someone who is not you? I had thought my sixty something year old hubby had ed or no sex drive. It ended up he was having sex with a woman young enough that he thought he'd fathered her toddler. Wow - that just happend...!
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