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Post by jamesbonding on Sept 30, 2018 2:49:06 GMT -5
In summary: I have clarity that this cannot be fixed. I would like to keep it peaceful and amicable. Due to intense and acute situation with children separating is not a good idea at this time. We need at least 1 year. H wants to keep working on relationship and fix it. He is very scared of divorce and wanta the marriage to work. He knows how I feel. VERY clear and honest communication has happened. However since we are not actually separating yet he is using this as an opportunity to work on things. I am encouraging of his personal work- I love him enough that I want him to be able to grow and recover from his crippling issues around intimacy. And if I am suddenly miraculously interested in him again I am not OPPOSED to my marriage working. I just do not at all believe that will or can happen. What this leads to is us having many awkward moments where he will try to be affectionate mildly (not sexual- see previous statement about crippling issues around intimacy) and it is awkward and uncomfortable. I am not initiating or encouraging this affection as it feels dishonest since I do not want him sexually and feel our marriage is over. When I tell him his awkward arm around me feels strange and he agrees it feels awkward. He believes we need to face how awkward it is in order to move past it, i.e. fix it. So..... I want to just officially live as roomates and coparents. That part of our relationship remains natural. It is the part we never lost. We joke and laugh, we spend time with the kids together, we talk about interesting anecdotes from our day or from his studies. That is all fine. How do I keep the fine stuff while still moving toward an exit? How do I continue to live with him while we want such different things? Is it right to shut down all affection when there is a tiny sliver of "what if?" in the world? (Tiny) Should I attempt to make affection less awkward (I could- I have been smoothing out his awkwardness for 18 years and am quite good at it) or is that leading him on? Basically how do you still live together while believing divorce is inevitable? Avoid? Engage? Well, it's up to you what you want to do, of course. I'd just like to say that I see a glimmer of hope that your marriage could be saved, if you are willing to have that happen. Some of the hopeful signs: "He is very scared of divorce and wants the marriage to work." So it sounds like he is definitely motivated to do something. My wife was also determined to keep our marriage together at the time I was preparing to leave, and I think that was a major factor that made our turnaround possible. She finally realized that the only way she could keep it together is if she would sleep with me again, and she did so. Things got better from there. "What this leads to is us having many awkward moments where he will try to be affectionate mildly" He's trying. He's putting his arm around you. He's getting in bed with you. I think that's a big deal, from a guy who has some huge hangups around intimacy. "I want to just officially live as roomates and coparents. That part of our relationship remains natural. It is the part we never lost. We joke and laugh, we spend time with the kids together, we talk about interesting anecdotes from our day or from his studies. That is all fine." So it sounds like you get along pretty well together, other than the intimacy and sex part. If that could be fixed, would you be willing to stay together for the rest of your lives? Your marriage sounds a lot more pleasant than mine was during the sexless part. My wife was screaming at me daily. It was a nightmare. But now things are vastly better, and I am quite content with how things are now. Addressing some other points: "@daddeo he is willfully putting his head in the sand. He tells me he truly believes the best thing for BOTH of us is to fix our marriage. He knows what I believe and can articulate it clearly. He just believes differently. " I'm not sure I understand what this means. Does he believe you can be content in the marriage without sex and intimacy? "If I cuddled him or reached for his hand he would be happy and follow my lead. I am not doing that. I could- it would not lead to sex but would ease the tension. But I am not." If you stroked his penis, or gave him some oral, would it get hard? If so, then if you spread you legs and invited him in, what would happen? "So for a guy crippled by fear of intimacy who has avoided almost all touch with his wife for years this is "trying." This is effort for him. I am not helping and he is frustrated by that." I think you are right, he has a huge fear of intimacy. I'm just speculating, of course, but suppose his mom always pushed him away and told to be quiet when he wanted attention, and only when he stood there quietly for a while would she give him some attention. He would learn to be quiet and not reach out when he wants something from women. So he gets into your bed but doesn't do anything more. He's afraid to.Your "not helping" is a rejection. I think it will close the door to any possibility of improvement in his ability to initiate any sort of intimacy."However since we are not actually separating yet he is using this as an opportunity to work on things. I am encouraging of his personal work- I love him enough that I want him to be able to grow and recover from his crippling issues around intimacy." So if you really want to help him, teach him how to interact with women in bed. Give him loads of encouragement. Help him get over his fears. For example, if gets in bed with you, WELCOME HIM, hold the blankets up so he can get close to you. "Would you like to snuggle up with me? ... That's nice, I like feeling your warm body against me. ... I'd like it if you put a hand on my breast. ... That's nice. ... Could you squeeze my nipple a bit? Roll it around with your fingers? A little bit harder? Mmmm, that's nice. Thank you. ... (Put his hand on your other breast.) This one wants some attention too. ... Would you like me to stroke your penis? ... Do you want to go further, or would you like to go to sleep? You're welcome to snuggle up and sleep with me. Mmmm, I'd love it if you would sleep with me like this every night. Even for ten minutes would be nice, if you don't want to sleep with me all night." I think if you tell him and show him exactly what you want, and give him loads of encouragement, you will soon enjoy being intimate with him. And as he develops some confidence, he will start to take the initiative more and more. But in the beginning, you'll have to take the lead, completely. "But I agree that if he were capable of the dramatic change needed it would have happened by now. By his own assessment he has been "working really hard" for a year. The incident related above happened 5 days ago. So if he really could change through hard work I think he would have." What, exactly, has he been doing as part of that "working really hard"? Have you been working with him, guiding him, giving him some "hands on" training, and encouraging him as I've described above? My wife never was anywhere near as shy as your husband, but she has in the past been less intimate than I would like. By explaining what I wanted, (snuggling up with me, putting an arm or hand on me as we go to sleep, holding my penis, etc.) and expressing my appreciation immediately and later after she did those things, she has gotten into the habit of doing those things and often does them on her own initiative. We've gone through some awful times, but I'm now happy with my marriage!
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Post by workingonit on Sept 30, 2018 8:19:28 GMT -5
jamesbonding I really appreciate your response. I know it is hard to come on these boards and read everyones back story so I will give you a brief run down. The only time sex ever sort of "worked" between us is when I did exactly as you described. Unfortunately the more I directed or encouraged my h the more intimidated he was. It was a very difficult line I had to walk - trying to encourage without triggering his insecurity. Eventually he shut it down anyway. I quite literally do not think there is anything you have suggested that I have not tried. For YEARS. Not once or twice- YEARS. He still shut down all PIV sex 9 years ago and any sexual contact 5 years ago. He has some deep issues that he has not worked on. I have had to accept that no amount of inviting him in, encouraging him, or taking the lead has either fixed our sex life or his issues. What I am struggling with now is the old pattern that wants me to step in and smooth this for him, as you descibe. That is what I have always done. But that is a dead end road and I am not a prisoner to the pattern anymore. We do not have a bad marriage. We are friends in a real sense. We do not fight. He does not belittle me or yell at me or treat me disrespectfully. But he is afraid of me in some ways. It is very hard to live like that. And nothing I have ever done has made a damn bit of difference. And I cannot imagine us ever having a sex life. Literally he is that crippled by the idea. It would honestly take a miracle. And it is not just the sex.
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Post by baza on Sept 30, 2018 21:25:51 GMT -5
"And it's not just the sex" - you so wisely note Sister workingonit . It rarely is. Lots of people arrive here taking a position that "everything is great bar the sex". But as their stories get fleshed out with additional detail, that initial position tends to collapse.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 22, 2018 13:12:16 GMT -5
Ok. Updating.
I really do not know what to do. Not in a big sense- that I know: see a lawyer, get divorced.
But I AM stuck for the next 10 or so long months. How do I manage day to day?
My h is horribly sad. He is deseperate to hold on to our marriage. He says amazingly loving things about how I am his best friend and how much he loves and needs me. He grabs me and hugs me hard and tells me that no one will ever love me as much as he does.
But he will not even really TALK about sex and recently told me I have not made it safe to do so. He also will not parent our problem child and will not respond to my anger. Literally no response other than to say he wished he could do a better job. I get more angry daily and feel unable to even look at him due to his ignoring our child.
This morning I was getting ready for work and my h was loudly weeping in the shower. Am I so cruel that I hear him practically screaming while crying in sobs and I think he is being manipulative? He was abnormally loud. I heard him in the kitchen. I left for work without seeing him or speaking to him. I hope my teenage boys did not hear him.
I just am not sure how to deal with him. I having my own issues and I have long developed an active support network amd therapy to help me. I HAD to do this because I was ALONE for years in my marriage.
I think it is telling that he feels "so far" from me now. I have felt far from him for so many years. He has had the marriage he wants for all that time.
Advice? (Not divorce advice- I know that! Day to day managing thoughts please) Do I ignore him? Comfort him as a friend? Put more distance between us?
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Post by h on Oct 22, 2018 13:32:08 GMT -5
I would say put more distance between you. If the loud weeping is genuine, that is sad, but he needs to learn to cope with the consequences of his actions and do so without relying on you. If the loud weeping is a manipulative ploy, don't let it sway you. Either way, I wouldn't be concerned with comforting him. He needs his own support network for that.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2018 13:36:16 GMT -5
I think you have no choice but to distance yourself. He is being manipulative, although he is doing it the way a child would, not with malice.
Make it crystal clear to him that this is what is happening. That he needs to grow up and figure out his own issues, without leaning on you, because you are already gone. It is not up to you to make his world safe. That was his role to you and he failed.
Stay friendly in front of the kids and warn him that if he tries to bring them into this, you will leave immediately (if you can truly do it.)
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 22, 2018 13:41:06 GMT -5
I suggest that you get individual therapy so you get the support and clarity to move forward without feeling responsible for being the person your husband relies on when he is feeling distraught over what sounds like an inevitable divorce. Since you are divorcing, it is not your responsibility to comfort him over the end of your marriage. That would just make leaving more difficult and give him false hope.
You can suggest that he get an individual therapist. However do not take it as your responsibility to make him go or find a therapist for him.
Your h is being manipulative and selfish. Obviously, instead of divorce, he would rather you be miserable in a marriage age that works for him not you. You can choose a path that would be happier for you. That’s not throwing him to the wolves. That’s recognizing you are incompatible with each other.
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Post by workingonit on Oct 22, 2018 13:48:15 GMT -5
I suggest that you get individual therapy so you get the support and clarity to move forward without feeling responsible for being the person your husband relies on when he is feeling distraught over what sounds like an inevitable divorce. Since you are divorcing, it is not your responsibility to comfort him over the end of your marriage. That would just make leaving more difficult and give him false hope. br] Agreed. My individual therapist is having me work on why I feel the need to make this easier on him or take care of him. I have some old stuff about hating disappointing people and/or failing at a task. I am trying to let him have his feelings and say things like "I see how sad your are." Neutral. I think I share your feeling that giving him false hope is just prolonging the pain and possibly making it worse. Ugh
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Post by baza on Oct 22, 2018 17:46:35 GMT -5
Distance is a good idea, and is a simple recognition of the existing facts anyway. He has behaved his way into irrelevance as a husband and as a parent and as a provider. He really has no further role to play in the dynamic.
Plus, the energy and emotion you might otherwise invest in him now would be far more productively be directed at your other problems.
Plus, it gives him the opportunity to start thinking about his future life direction in a somewhat controlled environment before he is compelled to start out on his next chosen path. What he does with that opportunity - if anything - is none of your business any more.
So, plenty of neutral phrases like your "I see how sad you are". "I can see why you might think that". "Mmmmmm". "I can understand that" etc etc etc. Keep your emotional distance (and when you can, give yourself whatever physical distance you can as well)
As these things play out to their end, be aware that the spouse will often "empty the gun at you" ranging from outright aggression to pathetic leg clinging in desperate attempts to de-rail the runaway train.
Play *your* game, not theirs.
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Post by shamwow on Oct 22, 2018 17:48:56 GMT -5
Distance is a good idea, and is a simple recognition of the existing facts anyway. He has behaved his way into irrelevance as a husband and as a parent and as a provider. He really has no further role to play in the dynamic. Plus, the energy and emotion you might otherwise invest in him now would be far more productively be directed at your other problems. Plus, it gives him the opportunity to start thinking about his future life direction in a somewhat controlled environment before he is compelled to start out on his next chosen path. What he does with that opportunity - if anything - is none of your business any more. So, plenty of neutral phrases like your "I see how sad you are". "I can see why you might think that". "Mmmmmm". "I can understand that" etc etc etc. Keep your emotional distance (and when you can, give yourself whatever physical distance you can as well) As these things play out to their end, be aware that the spouse will often "empty the gun at you" ranging from outright aggression to pathetic leg clinging in desperate attempts to de-rail the runaway train. Play *your* game, not theirs. Pathetic leg clinging 🤣
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Post by flounder on Oct 22, 2018 18:57:42 GMT -5
I agree about maintaining your distance. Perhaps he is seeing the end is near. People tend to get desperate when they can’t have what they want. Children throw temper tantrums. Adults do too,just differently. The sobbing could be genuine,but I think he wanted to be heard. You can’t make him seek therapy for his well being. You CAN continue to promote your own.
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Post by heartbrokengirl on Oct 22, 2018 22:21:24 GMT -5
I am struggling with the same thing for now, workingonit I’ve found that emotional detachment and as much physical distance daily as possible is the only thing working for me. I do not allow myself to entertain any feelings toward him, anger included. Easier said than done, I know. Put up a wall. I’m sorry I don’t have a better answer. It’s so hard, I know. Message me if you need to chat. Hugs!
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Post by javba on Oct 23, 2018 9:13:11 GMT -5
Good morning.
I would just like to add a few thoughts here. this is in regards to detachment versus engagement versus having feelings.
I'm trying to have feelings for myself, acceptance of my role and acceptance of reasons for maintaining the dysfunction. I am trying to find better love for myself in myself to improve myself as a person.
With regards to spouses Using empathy, and understanding while having the clarity that this situation cannot be maintained indefinitely. We all have different challenges and reasons for perpetuating, and staying in the situation.
View exit as not abandonment to your spouse or family. More of getting out of the way of a falling tree or out of the way from your abuser, refuser, someone who try it and could not connect. No one entered these relations lightly however we do have to take our own emotional well-being seriously.
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Post by casual777 on Oct 23, 2018 13:28:45 GMT -5
What would you do if a housemate whom you didn’t get on with terribly well was weeping? Probably check that they won’t come to any great harm or bring other housemates to great harm, but otherwise acknowledge that their issues cannot be solved by you, that you have enough in your plate, and that the sooner you’re out of there the better
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Post by sadkat on Oct 23, 2018 22:25:32 GMT -5
I’m dealing with a similar situation. No weeping or telling me I’m the only one he will ever love. But I am being treated like a princess. If only he’d treated me that way sooner! I can’t trust that he will be able to sustain it for long and I hate that I had to accept that my marriage was over before he started treating me well. Still no effort to initiate sex. So, I’m sticking to my plans and will continue to calmly inform him that our marriage is over. I started distancing myself and am planning activities with friends. My work travel has helped immensely these last few weeks. Taking it day by day for now.
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