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Post by solodriver on Sept 27, 2018 22:44:01 GMT -5
I'm in the "in-between" stage and it's easier for me because my wife is not trying to do anything affectionate or otherwise and that just re-confirms to me that this relationship is over and makes it easier for me to move on to the next stage when I'm ready.
It's a tough situation for you because he's trying and you're going to have to decide and let him know how you feel and what the "rules" are from here on out.
That's really tough because he will come back and argue that's he's trying and now blame you for rejecting him.
No matter what you do it will be very tough. This sounds like a very delicate time and you have to be very careful how you handle it. I don't really have any good advice for you but whatever you decide, you have my support.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 28, 2018 7:38:31 GMT -5
greatcoastal hmmmm... how to explain? So we have separate beds in the same room. Lately he has been getting into my bed to say goodnight (maybe once a week). He awkwardly lays next to me, not touching me, and asks me how my day was or something else. Then he will quietly lay there in awkward silence. Then kiss my forehead and get out of bed. If I cuddled him or reached for his hand he would be happy and follow my lead. I am not doing that. I could- it would not lead to sex but would ease the tension. But I am not. That is an example. So for a guy crippled by fear of intimacy who has avoided almost all touch with his wife for years this is "trying." This is effort for him. I am not helping and he is frustrated by that. In the non-intimate parts of our relationship he is out going and funny and communicative. Any touch becomes awkward. Does that help paint the picture? That helps paint the picture. It sounds like your H has issues far deeper, that go way back. issues that are not from your behavior. You did however, agree to his behaviors (like I did with my ex) so everything was "normal" for him for years. Now it needs changing. And even if he did a complete 180 you would have every right to question the reality of it and the longevity. Do you know what you want? I have been asking myself that ,now that I have the freedom to start over. The truth is hitting me hard. "i am not used to that, I don't know how to react to that, it's been a L O N G time." When given the opportunity to be the initiator , I honestly will need some help with that. Us men are terrible at picking up on hints! LOL! I can't find it right at the moment ,but I read about woman who are "independent", yet expect and want the man to initiate 95% of the time. There where some in this poll that said 50-50, It's a fact of life, it's part of our culture. That is meant for you to think about when it comes to, your expectations with a future partner, and what miracle it would take for you to desire your H again. Initiate, and trust are two key words that hopefully summarize it for you. Initiate and trust are no where to be found in your H's actions. And may never be there. Part two: This is a bit off topic but I think it still relates. My 16 yr old daughter was confining in me last night about her anxiety attacks about being touched by others at school. This year she has ROTC. She tells me "it's different than other classes. They are all very touchy. Fist bumps, high fives, hugging, pat's on the back." Of course ,in my mind I am thinking " what's wrong with that? You are a hugger, I see you hug your girlfriends and the other woman at church, you hug me?" I also said that to her. She explained to me about these few boys in the 8th grade and her freshman year, that were constantly coming up behind her, grabbing her shoulders and scaring her with these loud " AAAHHH", sounds! She does not trust people who instantly touch her. No one is groping her. We are talking a hand on the arm, "are you okay", or a friendly "way to go" touch. She says " there are a few people I feel okay with doing that to me. That's because I have gotten to know them, I trust them." My daughter also experienced a boyfriend who doesn't like to be touched at all, and was her "boyfriend" because he thinks it's the right thing to do and doesn't know how to tell her I am not ready for a girl to like me. You know how teen girls gossip and know everything? her friends told her " we mentioned your name to him several times, not once did he say anything about you. We asked him, is she your girlfriend? He reluctantly said Yes,and then asked how did you know?" These are some of the things she has been going through. Also breaking up with another guy who was "too busy" ( and in my opinion too dumb, or inexperienced to initiate anything, texts, hello's, conversations, getting together, nothing) Meanwhile she trusts him and feels comfortable still receiving friendly touch from him. Just an example of how we are formed and what can happen in our early years, that carry into adulthood.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2018 8:29:10 GMT -5
Yes choosinghappy I am like you in my reaction to @shynjdude 's current turn around. I do not want that with my h. For the record, I would have said the exact same thing on July 1 about my wife. The reason it is working so far is because we have both changed so significantly much that we are essentially different people (especially her.) If your H would wake you at 2 AM with his tongue between your thighs your opinion might change - but you know that can never happen unless he has an amazing and unbelievable breakthrough. Those things don't happen in real life very often. And it isn't as if he wasn't given plenty of notice. If he could change, he would have done far more by now. (And I admit I still want to meet him in person, shake him by his shoulders and yell at him "What the fuck is wrong with you that you are willing to let her go?" With some Yiddish curses thrown in for good measure )
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Post by workingonit on Sept 28, 2018 8:39:21 GMT -5
Yes choosinghappy I am like you in my reaction to @shynjdude 's current turn around. I do not want that with my h. For the record, I would have said the exact same thing on July 1 about my wife. The reason it is working so far is because we have both changed so significantly much that we are essentially different people (especially her.) If your H would wake you at 2 AM with his tongue between your thighs your opinion might change - but you know that can never happen unless he has an amazing and unbelievable breakthrough. Those things don't happen in real life very often. And it isn't as if he wasn't given plenty of notice. If he could change, he would have done far more by now. (And I admit I still want to meet him in person, shake him by his shoulders and yell at him "What the fuck is wrong with you that you are willing to let her go?" With some Yiddish curses thrown in for good measure ) ❤ thank you. The Yiddish curses would work better than English ones! But I agree that if he were capable of the dramatic change needed it would have happened by now. By his own assessment he has been "working really hard" for a year. The incident related above happened 5 days ago. So if he really could change through hard work I think he would have. I honestly think he has a better chance at something with another woman. maybe someone with a low libido who is more nurturing than I am. Or more gentle/sweet? IDK. I am pretty fucking sweet so maybe not!! 🤣
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Post by GeekGoddess on Sept 28, 2018 8:53:23 GMT -5
I know that my Ex “tried” for a bit...maybe even almost 6 months. All I can say about that phase is that it was VERY trying. On my last nerve. It was actually the paucity if his efforts, the lack of reaction inside me, the reality of “oh shit, this IS as good as it gets WHEN he is trying to work at it” - it finally sunk in.
In my decision letter, when I told him I would be going, I did give him props for his attempts. I explained that it was MY inability to reach back out toward him, to reciprocate, to engage - I didn’t feel it anymore. It had just been too long. That part in me was gone. I loved him like a brother.
I don’t know about the phrase “shut down all affection” - I mean, be friends, laugh, share stuff when you need to. My Ex was still my most trusted confidant for a little while. But I don’t want my brother climbing into my bed.
The day I told my then-H that I would be leaving, first moving into the guest room for a bit - he asked me to sleep in our bed one last time. I agreed. I knew there wouldn’t be sex. But - I thought there would be some hugging, or hand holding, or a comfortable resting of arms touching. No. Just like it had been for most of 3 years- when we brushed near each other, he (we both) pulled our limbs back to our own half of the mattress. I wondered why he even bothered to ask me to be in there. It served to reinforce that, even when he was upset, he wouldn’t let me in. Not even as a friend. That was a strange, unrestful night.
Good luck, honey. I would continue to be kind, but clarify that him getting into your bed just is not sparking with you and it would probably be easier on you both to just be fraternal.
I know it felt weird for me when my H trying. I knew it was what I HAD been asking him to do. I had to finally inform him that I didn’t want that any more and he could just stop it.
I’m sure you will have to have the conversation with him more than once. You need to tell him what you’ll tolerate from him: friendly hugs, coworker type intimacy, brotherly support. There’s not a role for “romantic husband” that’s still open - he doesn’t get to pretend and you won’t play along, it’s too not naturally-occurring. Feeling forced makes it weirder than just not pretending.
Yeah - the gist is: this is a hard part. Wishing you that it passes quickly.
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Post by bballgirl on Sept 28, 2018 8:55:00 GMT -5
Stay true to what you want for yourself.
The hardest part about living together is if you don’t want the same thing. For many years I wanted my husband and he didn’t want me eventually in time I no longer wanted him and I got a divorce which fixed a lot of financial problems as well as emotional and mental for me.
I think what I’m wondering most about your post is that he is trying but are you comfortable with this? He gets into bed and snuggles with you. Is this what you want?
If it’s not then you need to be more forthcoming with him and tell him that it’s not fixable and to stay on his own bed.
When my ex and I first got back together he comes to bed at 2 or 3 am and he wants to tell me something he saw on tv and woke me up basically. I told him straight up - “unless the house is on fire do not talk to me at night”. It would be different if it was a man that I was interested in sexually because I never minded being woken up for sex at 2 am but sex is off the table now so I get a good night sleep by my rules.
Again stay true to what you want a year goes by quick.
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Post by Dan on Sept 28, 2018 9:11:21 GMT -5
@daddeo he is willfully putting his head in the sand. He tells me he truly believes the best thing for BOTH of us is to fix our marriage. He knows what I believe and can articulate it clearly. He just believes differently. Tough spot for me He is an adult an entitled to do that. As long as you are a straight-shooter (don't actively lead him on), then keeping your cards close to your chest is acceptable. In fact: it may be the high road. I have wrestled with the same dilemma. I sought some input here, but I put it to my therapist this way: "Am I being dishonest by not actively discouraging her if I feel in my heart of hearts that this can't be fixed?" Her (the therapist's) reply: "No. If you can at least honestly say to yourself that 'reconciliation is a remote possibility, given the right circumstances', then it is OK not to disclose your current doubts. You are not obliged to discuss how remote you think that chance is. Plus, if you are in it for another so-many months or years, you have to admit YOU might change your mind." If I may paraphrase: "don't shoot holes in the boat you are planning to sail in for a while yet." This advice from a mental healthcare professional (and a woman) was the "permission" I needed to keep my SUBSTANTIAL doubts to myself. --- An unrelated path to the same conclusion (though a bit darker, as it sounds a bit mean-spirited as marital advice): I, my wife, and my daughter are big fans of the show Survivor. I have yet to see a case of gaining tactical advantage by being upfront with someone that you are about to vote them out. For one: it gives them an opportunity to mess things up. Also: for their own benefit, it shortens the time they worry. I'd summarize: "the blindside is the kindest cut." (Dark, I know.)
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Sept 28, 2018 9:29:14 GMT -5
This type of engagement (quoted below) takes a lot of effort on my part as it doesnt come naturally. But the pragmatist in me recognizes its the optimal approach. Didnt know you had a dark streak Dan. That not withstanding, dannydarko is a catchy screen name, 🤣🤣🤣 As long as you are a straight-shooter (don't actively lead him on), then keeping your cards close to your chest is acceptable. In fact: it may "the blindside is the kindest cut." (Dark, I know.)
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Post by shamwow on Sept 28, 2018 9:33:33 GMT -5
My ex and I kept things remarkably amicable for about a half year before our divorce was finalized. It can be argued we kept it amicable for several years before then even as the wheels fell off of the marriage.
For me the key to success was disengagement. I strengthened my relationships with the kids while simultaneously ending my attempts to "work" on the marriage.
As it turns out, I was the only one really trying to "work" on the marriage since she didn't think there was anything wrong. As a result, once it was taken off life support it quickly slipped into a coma and eventually died.
By the time we got divorced, I had prepared the foundations for a great relationship with the kids and the fact I was no longer hounding her on fixing something she didn't think was broken allowed us to part ways amicably.
This required time. It also required me to firmly pronounce the marriage dead and focus my efforts on damage control for the kids and extracting myself from the situation.
For me, that strategy also meant no outsourcing. I'm a shitty liar and know I would have gotten caught. And that would have set my airplane ablaze even as I was trying for a soft landing.
Intentional celibacy for a few years really sucked, but it did produce the amicable split I wanted. No "bad guy", even though I find her deceitful actions during the marriage despicable.
But the key is figuring out what you want. Do you want in? Work at the marriage and accept the fact you will likely be unhappy (or at least unsatisfied) for the rest of your life. Do you want out? Spend your efforts on getting out, not trying to fix the broken down bus.
Half measures guarantee it will be harder than it needs to be.
But figure out what you want first. It's tough. I've been there.
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Post by shamwow on Sept 28, 2018 9:39:24 GMT -5
I can fully relate to your statements highlighted below. I feel that I am in a similar situation with perhaps a longer runway on the divorce. I dont have much to offer except the following He is not on the same page as you. So I think the priority needs to be for you to continue to communicate explicity where you are at. The challenge is two fold. Typically by this point, communication is a huge hurdle (or I might just be projecting my situation). So that part might need to be addressed first. Secondly, from what you describe, it seems he does not "hear" you or is in denial about the situation. Best case is he will need time to "get it". Worst case is he doesnt get it and continues floating down denial (tired, terrible pun fully intended). Only time will tell how much patience you have. The thing about the work he is doing for himself is that he may not be truly doing it for himself but just to get his marriage back. It begs the question, is this a genuine and lasting change? Some food for thought I hope. Let us know how things develop. I have clarity that this cannot be fixed. I would like to keep it peaceful and amicable. Due to intense and acute situation with children separating is not a good idea at this time. We need at least 1 year. H I disagree that the challenge is to continue to communicate. It sounds as though she has communicated until she is blue in the face. His response is clear. The challenge is to decide "what now?", to stick with that decision, plan to execute that decision, and then do it. Stay or leave? Her call. But more "communication" will likely produce nothing but more confusion.
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Post by workingonit on Sept 28, 2018 10:08:03 GMT -5
Thanks all. GeekGoddess I so appreciate that you really totally nailed it. Thank you! And shamwow I agree more communication is not going to help. What do I want? I want what choosinghappy got: I want my h to admit this is all we can have. I want to be able to cry with him about that tragedy. I want to work together on how best to untangle our lives, how best to coparent. I want to preserve remnants of our friendship. But here I am, wanting things FROM HIM. Wanting to change him so my needs will be met. Haha! How well has that gone for me?? Not f-ing well, clearly! So I cannot have what I want. I cannot change him. I can only be me. Really I need to own that, to face that I am and will hurt him and that is just an unavoidable fact. Our separation will be unilateral, as so much has been in our marriage. This is really helpful ILIASM peeps. I know I need to make concrete steps while being clear with him, keeping the peace, enjoying the good parts while they are good. And no more awkward bed visits!
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Post by Dan on Sept 28, 2018 16:35:27 GMT -5
This type of engagement (quoted below) takes a lot of effort on my part as it doesnt come naturally. But the pragmatist in me recognizes its the optimal approach. Yes: for those of us who are earnest and naturally "straight shooters", it takes effort to adopt the posture of "hold your card close to your chest if you are not ready to sink the the boat you're sailing in"... if I may mangle and mix my own metaphor. But for me, it is still the least-worst path for the time being: I'm not ready to leave. I'm not willing to fully play along like nothing is wrong. This posture is the best "marital detente" that I can get to at this point.
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Post by Dan on Sept 28, 2018 16:44:56 GMT -5
Didnt know you had a dark streak Dan. That not withstanding, dannydarko is a catchy screen name, 🤣🤣🤣 Oh... I definitely have a dark side. I just don't let "dannydarko" out very much...
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Post by sadkat on Sept 28, 2018 16:59:12 GMT -5
I talked to my lawyer about this. I was struggling with how to reinforce to my husband that our marriage was over because lately he has been so nice and helpful and much more pleasant to me. My lawyer first said- “of course he is- you’re his chief cook, caretaker, and laundry person. He has a comfortable life”. Couldn’t argue with that! He then told me I needed to prepare my message and provide it as consistently as possible in an even voice. To do it as often as needed. Things would be tense for a while but eventually he would come to understand and agree to move forward. I’m not saying that it’s going to be easy for me to do but thought it was worthwhile advice to share.
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Post by GeekGoddess on Sept 29, 2018 7:33:10 GMT -5
This nugget, I love: Our separation will be unilateral as so much has been in our marriage.
Yep.
When I had pangs it guilt or doubt over “oh, I’m hurting him” - I reminded my self of his unilateral celibacy enforcement through avoidance. It made me feel like a better person that at least when I unilaterally chose leaving, I told him flat out, clearly, as kind but firm as possible. The moments he chose denial or avoidance, that was his choice. I had clearly declared my intentions which was a fuck-all LOT more than he had done with me.
Stay strong, sister. This part stinks. But it’s the cocoon portion, and the darkness passes. A year does go by quickly when you are focused on your preparations, your path out.
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