|
Post by petrushka on Jul 15, 2018 10:50:01 GMT -5
elynne , I haven't followed your backstory extensively, just seen a few posts in this thread - I am rarely in this forum any more, real life (tm) has been demanding. So, take my view with a grain of salt. I have experience of being subjected to passive aggressive strategies, several periods in my life. What I have taken away from this, what I have learned at EP and put into practice with my wife who, 10 years ago, was extremely p-a and had me doubting my sanity by constantly making out that I was victimizing and abusing her, are two things. Friends. My friends, her friends, people who were in the room: I quizzed them when she left the room, I asked if they thought I had been abusive, insulting, belittling. The feedback I got was that I wasn't, hadn't. That really helped me regain my mental equilibrium and confidence. Because I was really starting to doubt myself. What I learned to do: Don't play. Whenever I got hit in the gut with some p-a accusations, misinterpretations of my visage, my words, my passions -I stopped defending myself, I stopped engaging with those accusations, I stopped reacting, I ignored them, internally and externally. "this is just her playing those mindgames again". It was a relevation how quickly that abusive behaviour stopped, because I was not feeding it any more. They get power by making us react to their crap, and that encourages them (consciously or unconsciously) to do it some more. Weird shit happens at times. My wife is from an emotionally and physically abusive family background. Most of her abuse of me was, if you want to call it that, preemptively defensive. For instance when I am visualizing something, or thinking hard about something, I kind of frown and look straight ahead without focusing. My wife would take this as my being angry and lash out at me for being angry and abusive and I'd try to say I was not so then she'd accuse me of lying which is one thing that DOES make me angry, and ... each would walk away upset. Crap. When I get passionate talking about something she would assume I was/am about to blow up (whereas, when I really am angry I get white about the nose and stop talking). Telling her that has not filtered through. ....... I don't play any more. I smile and nod and change the topic. My feelings are mine, my perception of my inner self is mine. I don't need anyone else to tell me what I feel, or defend myself against what they fantasize about me ... and I got my confidence back. I am not insane. I accept their perception as their perception but I don't feel that I have to wear the shoe that doesn't fit (like I used to). And I don't HAVE to change anyone's mind. If they insist on a particular perception of me, then so be it. I step aside. The dogs are barking, but the caravan moves on, as some old Arabic proverb would have it. Trying to make a passive aggressive person happy only encourages them to do it more, while they make absolutely sure that they will never be happy with your efforts; always find a nit to pick, they do not WANT to be placated because it does not fit their game ... I just leave them sitting in their miserable sauce, it's not mine, just as it's not yours to take responsibility for. my 2 cents worth. -P.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Jul 15, 2018 10:52:54 GMT -5
He pretends that he’s actually just trying to communicate (not belittling me and attacking my character) then blames me for stymying communication. And I descend into a mental tailspin in trying to honestly assess whether I’m over reacting to criticism and being defensive or just reacting in a reasonable way to being belittled. --- After therapy he’s learned to call my reactions into question and get me to doubt my feelings. To twist things so that I’m the bad guy and he’s the innocent victim. --- I think couples therapy has damaged my trust in my perceptions and has made h more clever and emboldened him. --- With H, he turns normal conversation into a fun house. Distortions, denial, shifting blame. Lack of logic. I think the issue is that his goal isn’t to communicate but to control. When I feel that, my reaction is to stop the conversation or argument and refuse to engage. This makes him angry. I’ll say “This argument is going nowhere. I’m not going to discuss this with you right now.” He pushes. I say, “If you keep pushing, I’ll go upstairs.” In my face he says, “If you’re going upstairs then I’m going upstairs too.” I say, “Then I’ll stay downstairs.” The whole thing is just too bizarre for words. Then stop. Just stop. Stop trying to communicate when he won't in a rational way. Stop trying to "get through to him". Stop trying to understand why he does what he does, what he truly means, what you could change about how you interact with him to make things work better. Just stop all of it. Use that energy to focus on yourself and on your own goals. And if you don't KNOW what your goals are, figure that out. (Hint: they should have nothing to do with trying to make things work with your crazy, abusive H and everything to do with you getting to a strong, healthy place mentally.) I am so glad you fired that incompetent couples therapist. I agree that was doing you more harm than good. You don't need to continue to over-analyze situations with your H. YES, you do have things to work on in yourself due to your upbringing. But that is solitary work that can be focused on whether married or not. And I would make the argument that you would have much more success in your self improvement if you were to remove yourself from the toxic environment caused by your H. Work towards your exit elynne. Get yourself and your daughters safe. Begin to reclaim your SELF again.
|
|
|
Post by surfergirl on Jul 15, 2018 12:27:18 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by surfergirl on Jul 15, 2018 12:33:35 GMT -5
Wow, I just wrote "married to the same guy".
21 years is a long time. I'm divorced now, but I still find myself using the words "us" and "we" when referring to my EX-HUSBAND. I'm no longer married. Sorry, for the mistype.
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Jul 15, 2018 12:40:10 GMT -5
Yes yes yes!! This is exactly the point I was trying to make, above! Good article surfergirl . "1. STOP GIVING FEEDBACK. We keep thinking that if we explain it in just the right way, at just the right time, with just the right tone of voice, there will be a meeting of the minds. Our voice will be heard and acknowledged as valuable and worth something. But when has that ever happened?"
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2018 17:16:08 GMT -5
Sister @elle might be the poster girl of the current membership. Joined May 2016...on the cusp of getting out July 2018. Lots of why chasing in between those two dates. You’ve got the timeline correct, baza. And I’ll definitely cop to the why-chasing in between. However, all that why-chasing was done while working an exit strategy step by step, day by day. The why-chasing is normal (all who have left have BTDT). The problem comes when there isn’t simultaneous forward movement via an exit strategy. As for timelines? Each relationship is unique and so will each timeline be. I’m one to set a deadline and stick to it. I believe I originally said July 2018 (after I was refused a divorce in July 2016, that is). And now here I am, with a mid-August 2018 final court date. I’m going to call that on track. elynne, no one can tell us when we’re ready to leave. We have to know it deep in our bones. But hopefully we get a sneaking suspicion long before the final straw and manage to put together and methodically work an exit strategy. That’s my hope for you. Toe that line between stay and go until the inevitable straw is placed, at which point your exit plan is there to catch you.
|
|
|
Post by nyartgal on Jul 18, 2018 6:53:51 GMT -5
The only therapy you need at this moment is ZIP CODE THERAPY. Get the hell away from him and take your daughters. Tell him you are taking them on vacation. Take a credit card out in your name and go. Ten YEARS of therapy isn’t enough while you are under the same roof as him.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jul 18, 2018 7:32:08 GMT -5
Great Coastal helpfully posted this What it Means When a. Narcissists Says I Love You article in the resource area. I’m posting a link and snippet so Elynne and those identifying with her don’t miss its valuable info. Read so you can see how your spouse regards you. “When I say “I love you” I mean that I love how hard you work to make me feel like your everything, that I am the focus of your life, that you want me to be happy, and that I’ll never be expected to do the same. I love the power I have to take advantage of your kindness and intentions to be nice, and the pleasure I derive when I make myself feel huge in comparison to you, taking every opportunity to make you feel small and insignificant.....” I love the feeling it gives me thinking of you as weak, vulnerable, emotionally fluffy, and I love looking down on you for your childlike innocence and gullibility, as weakness. I love the way I feel knowing that, through the use of gaslighting, what you want to discuss or address will never happen, and I love this “power” to train you to feel “crazy” for even asking or bringing up issues that don’t interest me, effectively, ever lowering your expectations of me and what I’m capable of giving you, while I up mine of you.” kiddy.org.uk/what-it-means-when-a-narcissist-says-i-love-you/
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Jul 18, 2018 16:15:37 GMT -5
Wow, I just wrote "married to the same guy". 21 years is a long time. I'm divorced now, but I still find myself using the words "us" and "we" when referring to my EX-HUSBAND. I'm no longer married. Sorry, for the mistype. It will happen for a while. Until it stops. For me when I stopped trying to hyphenate ex-wife and just started using ex, that clicked the transition for me. Different word for different relationship rather than remembering to modify the old word for the old relationship. At least it helped me.
|
|
|
Post by ted on Jul 19, 2018 15:23:19 GMT -5
elynne, it sounds like you're always spinning, trying to figure out what's objectively happening: Did I overreact? Is is really abuse or just maybe abuse? Did I use the exact right tone of voice? Is he trying to screw me? Am I nuts? Am I misinterpreting? Etc,. ad infinitum. Don't set the evidentiary bar too high. The relevant standard is what *you* think, what *you* feel, and what *you* want. You don't have to be right in a court of law. You don't have to prove anything to your H, some therapist, family, or friends. None of the worst things have to be true, if the objective truth could somehow be known. It's a bad relationship and situation by *your* standards. That is enough. You are the standard. You are the only court that matters. You are allowed to not want this relationship, and to make changes. The endless searching for something objective is an attempt to avoid owning your own feelings, thoughts, and desires; probably because you don't believe your feelings, thoughts, and desires are important enough to stand on their own. It sounds like you know what you want, but you want some higher power of objective truth to grant it to you. You don't value yourself enough to claim it on your own authority. You're afraid that isn't allowed. I hope individual therapy will help you value yourself and claim your sovereignty. The objective truth of all that's happened can't be known, and wouldn't save you anyway. It's what you feel that matters, what you think that matters, what you want that matters. You are enough. You are allowed.
|
|
|
Post by elynne on Jul 21, 2018 10:22:28 GMT -5
elynne, it sounds like you're always spinning, trying to figure out what's objectively happening: Did I overreact? Is is really abuse or just maybe abuse? Did I use the exact right tone of voice? Is he trying to screw me? Am I nuts? Am I misinterpreting? Etc,. ad infinitum. Don't set the evidentiary bar too high. The relevant standard is what *you* think, what *you* feel, and what *you* want. You don't have to be right in a court of law. You don't have to prove anything to your H, some therapist, family, or friends. None of the worst things have to be true, if the objective truth could somehow be known. It's a bad relationship and situation by *your* standards. That is enough. You are the standard. You are the only court that matters. You are allowed to not want this relationship, and to make changes. The endless searching for something objective is an attempt to avoid owning your own feelings, thoughts, and desires; probably because you don't believe your feelings, thoughts, and desires are important enough to stand on their own. It sounds like you know what you want, but you want some higher power of objective truth to grant it to you. You don't value yourself enough to claim it on your own authority. You're afraid that isn't allowed. I hope individual therapy will help you value yourself and claim your sovereignty. The objective truth of all that's happened can't be known, and wouldn't save you anyway. It's what you feel that matters, what you think that matters, what you want that matters. You are enough. You are allowed. This is so on the money! My new therapist has a bicycle accident and had to cancel our appointment. Then I’m away for 3 weeks, she’s away for 3 weeks. Then after the following appointment we were going to decide if she can help me (she’s only approved to give 10 weeks of therapy) or if she’d refer me to a long term therapist. The waiting list for long term therapy is running around 2 months. I’ve asked her to refer me to a long term therapist now, so that the 2 month waiting list begins instead of waiting 6 weeks to start the 2 month waiting period. I think individual therapy is essential so I can work on trusting my own impressions and intuition. The idea of waiting 3 1/2 months to start working on this had me in tears. Luckily the therapist agreed to my request- first 3 weeks of vacation.
|
|
kittymox
Junior Member
Just a dandelion
Posts: 32
Age Range: 41-45
|
Post by kittymox on Jul 21, 2018 12:30:04 GMT -5
He pretends that he’s actually just trying to communicate (not belittling me and attacking my character) then blames me for stymying communication. And I descend into a mental tailspin in trying to honestly assess whether I’m over reacting to criticism and being defensive or just reacting in a reasonable way to being belittled. --- After therapy he’s learned to call my reactions into question and get me to doubt my feelings. To twist things so that I’m the bad guy and he’s the innocent victim. --- I think couples therapy has damaged my trust in my perceptions and has made h more clever and emboldened him. --- With H, he turns normal conversation into a fun house. Distortions, denial, shifting blame. Lack of logic. I think the issue is that his goal isn’t to communicate but to control. When I feel that, my reaction is to stop the conversation or argument and refuse to engage. This makes him angry. I’ll say “This argument is going nowhere. I’m not going to discuss this with you right now.” He pushes. I say, “If you keep pushing, I’ll go upstairs.” In my face he says, “If you’re going upstairs then I’m going upstairs too.” I say, “Then I’ll stay downstairs.” The whole thing is just too bizarre for words. Then stop. Just stop. Stop trying to communicate when he won't in a rational way. Stop trying to "get through to him". Stop trying to understand why he does what he does, what he truly means, what you could change about how you interact with him to make things work better. Just stop all of it. Use that energy to focus on yourself and on your own goals. And if you don't KNOW what your goals are, figure that out. (Hint: they should have nothing to do with trying to make things work with your crazy, abusive H and everything to do with you getting to a strong, healthy place mentally.) I am so glad you fired that incompetent couples therapist. I agree that was doing you more harm than good. You don't need to continue to over-analyze situations with your H. YES, you do have things to work on in yourself due to your upbringing. But that is solitary work that can be focused on whether married or not. And I would make the argument that you would have much more success in your self improvement if you were to remove yourself from the toxic environment caused by your H. Work towards your exit elynne . Get yourself and your daughters safe. Begin to reclaim your SELF again. You are amazing. Thank you for this.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jul 21, 2018 17:53:55 GMT -5
“I’ve asked her to refer me to a long term therapist now, so that the 2 month waiting list begins instead of waiting 6 weeks to start the 2 month waiting period.
I think individual therapy is essential so I can work on trusting my own impressions and intuition. The idea of waiting 3 1/2 months to start working on this had me in tears. Luckily the therapist agreed to my request- first 3 weeks of vacation.”
You’ve handled things well. WTG!
|
|
|
Post by choosinghappy on Aug 12, 2018 8:59:17 GMT -5
elynne you popped into my head today. How is everything going?
|
|
|
Post by elynne on Aug 14, 2018 1:58:50 GMT -5
elynne you popped into my head today. How is everything going? Just back to NL after 3 weeks vacation. Vacation was ok. Not great, not awful. Being back home is a bit of a wake up call. I can travel to another country, swim, visit new places, hike with the family, but when we get back home the status quo is still the same. Interesting story from vacation. We went on a hike/climb with 3 other families that we vacationed with. One family decided the hike was too technical for their young children (wise decision). One family arrived much later and came up on their own. Our family climbed the peak with the 4th family. Our oldest and their boys scrambled up quickly. H helped our youngest through the tough spots and soon disappeared up the trail. I continued up the climb on my own - scrambling over boulders - I’m not a huge fan of heights. Before h disappeared around a bend I told him, “It’s not the hardest climb, but all of the gaps and crevices are scary. If you slip or misstep you’re likely to be really injured, sprain an ankle or break something.” I eventually caught up enough to call to him to wait for me to catch up. When I did he said he hadn’t waited for me because he wanted to stay with our youngest. I told him, you could have told her we’re going to wait for Mom to catch up. Then I told him that I didn’t like being left behind, I didn’t like climbing on my own. I found it unsafe. From the top, my husband, our girls, and one other father wanted to do another 1/2 hour climb to another peak, the rest wanted to climb back down. I told h, enjoy your climb, I’ll meet you at the bottom. He huffed and puffed. Fine. I’ll come down now. “No. You want to climb. I’m fine climbing down with K&M. I just don’t want to climb alone.” A 15 minute argument ensues. H wanted me to sit and wait for him to climb the peak instead of climbing down with friends. Finally the other father says to h, you want to climb, she wants to climb down with K&M. Why don’t you just let her go? He grudgingly agrees. I scramble to catch up to our friends before they start their descent but they have too much of a head start and I end up doing the entire climb alone. And very f*cking annoyed at h. But I think - why did I stay and argue with h instead of doing what I wanted? I realize it was because he was manipulating me. If I didn’t wait, he was going to climb back down with the girls and the other father. He framed the situation in a way that if I did what I wanted to, 4 people wouldn’t be able to do what they wanted to do. I didn’t want to be the bad guy and prevent them from doing what they wanted to. It was a false premise, but he still set it up that way. AND I think he did it because I embarrassed him. At the top one of the other moms said, I want to climb down with K. There are points where you really need a hand and to help each other. I said, “On the way up, H disappeared around a corner. I climbed up on my own. If K wants to hike to the peak, we can climb down together. We’ll help each other.” H was pissed that I exposed his lack of concern or attention for me. The other husbands climbed with their wives and stayed with them. I think he wasn’t at all bothered by leaving me behind or embarrassed by his oversight, but he was upset by how it made him appear and angry with me for telling others that he left me to climb alone. And then he compounded his mistake by arguing with me until I was left climbing down alone too! That I just didn’t get, until I realized he was likely trying to show that he could be the attentive husband and climb down with me. That strategy wouldn’t work if I climbed down with another family. Anyway, long story. But I think very telling. I’m never going to change who he is. He’s self-centered and doesn’t care much (if at all) about me. The big question is what am I going to do about it? I’ve got choices. None are extremely appealing, but they are still choices. Stay with a husband who I think is an asshole. Leave said husband and be a single mom in a foreign country without much income. But being single has a host of upsides. Staying with h has some benefits as well. It’s the known evil. I have financial security. His family has a history of heart disease so I’ll likely outlive him. (The last was a bad joke). I suspect that all of these stories that I post are my way of building my explanation for leaving. And perhaps one day it reaches a tipping point where I understand that staying isn’t a viable option. Or maybe one day I wake up and realize that wanting to leave is justification enough. That life is way too fucking short, and wasting any of it sitting at the top of a mountain waiting while someone else climbs is just plain wrong.
|
|