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Post by DryCreek on Jul 11, 2018 11:36:58 GMT -5
The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility. Fuck that. I’m not asking to be treated badly. Just NO. Everytime she says something along those lines it pisses me the fuck off. “But, your honor, it’s like she was *asking* for it...” Yeah, I’m pretty sure that excuse doesn’t work here either. Even if I leave my gas can and matchbook by the woodpile, that doesn’t excuse the arsonist. Can one assume too much responsibility for things they shouldn’t? Sure. Can someone be browbeat into accepting responsibility for things they shouldn’t? Yup. There’s a long history of regimes “coercing” confessions from innocent people. Is it the better / healthier choice to be more vocal about standing up for yourself? Of course. Is it strategic to not fight every skirmish that presents itself? Certainly. Though one might argue that if it’s a steady flow of skirmishes and battles, that one might want to remove themselves from the situation... which, curiously enough, is why you’re in her office. Hmm.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 11:46:29 GMT -5
“The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility. Fuck that. I’m not asking to be treated badly. Just NO. Everytime she says something along those lines it pisses me the fuck off.”
She is a crap therapist whom you should stop seeing. She can not help you. You are wasting your time and using energy in that horrible therapy that you could be using productively to help you and your daughters heal and to escape your abusive marriage.
Why do you not quit that terrible therapy?
Everyone here has told you that your husband is abusive and your therapist is incompetent. Many have also posted links to reputable sources with information about abuse as well as the type of therapy effective with abusers. You keep ignoring us, the information, and you keep expending your energy on trying to change and persuade your abusive husband and incompetent therapist.
Why? Your actions aren’t just hurting you. Your actions are hurting your daughters. You are contributing to their mistreatment. If you don’t care about yourself why don’t you care enough to take the actions to best protect them? Speaking up isn’t enough. You need to get them away from your h.
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catsloveme
Full Member
Dwelling in the possible
Posts: 207
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Post by catsloveme on Jul 11, 2018 13:25:31 GMT -5
“I don’t think growing up in an abusive home makes one see abuse where it doesn’t exist, but I think it does make it much more likely that you’ll get into abusive relationships later and NOT see it!“
I think this is true. You don’t readily recognize the abuse because on some level it has been normalized. This leads to a repeating cycle of similar relationships/ situations. I’m sure you don’t want your daughters to grow up thinking that their father’s behavior is acceptable.
But you are strong and perceptive. You realize that you’re not seeing what’s happening at first. And that’s a great step toward breaking the cycle. Once you know there’s something to watch for you can start looking for it.
You must step in and break that cycle of verbal and emotional abuse your husband is heaping on your daughter. She needs your protection more than she needs to see a “united front”. And both of your daughters need to see your example of standing up to your husband’s bullying and abuse.
For me, personally, this kind of abuse would be a clear motivation to get out post haste. But I have not walked in your shoes and do not know all of what is keeping you in your situation. Stay safe. Keep your daughters safe. I think people’s reactions are well-founded and recommendations are sound here, but ultimately it’s up to you to make a move. Be strong. Be brave. Do what you know you need to do.
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Post by beachguy on Jul 11, 2018 14:59:54 GMT -5
elynne, I'm new to the thread and I don't know the history or if this was mentioned. But wanted to say that your Husband's aha moment in therapy sounds like Intermittent Reinforcement. Not a break through since that's rare with abusers. I assume you have researched that thoroughly?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 15:11:11 GMT -5
“The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility."
You are responsible for continuing therapy with an incompetent therapist who victimizes you. You could choose to end this harmful therapy.
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 11, 2018 17:24:22 GMT -5
elynne I was not the one who said you aren’t really confused. I think you definitely are, and I think your confusion is genuine because of where you have decided to focus your energy. Any energy, thought or effort you focus on your H is refracted into a billion confusing reflections in his insane hall of mirrors. That is HIS GOAL. My point is that you need to refocus your attention on what is really at stake in the following order: 1. The safety of your daughters, both physically and psychologically 2. Your own safety 3. The things in your life that make you feel unequivocally in tune with yourself, right down deep in your bones. Instead you are focused on: 1. Winning some kind of phony understanding from a toxic narcissist who is not and never has been capable of loving you 2. Seeking the approval or understand of idiot therapists who are incapable of helping you (sounds like point #1, no?) 3. Looking for excuses in your past, your present and your future which will never help you get out of your semi-paralysis (are you starting to see a theme here??) Your lodestar at this point can’t be your own judgment, because frankly, it’s wobbly as fuck at the moment. You are ALL OVER THE PLACE when you operate out of your head. So stop doing that. Operate out of your heart. Your heart that is terrified about the effect on your daughters. Your heart that swells with pride, excitement and ease when you make art and show it to people. Your heart that feels at ease when your H isn’t around. Your brain is smart but it is not helping you right at this juncture—-it will one day but not now. Ignore all the voices up too and pay attention to the truth of you.
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Post by WindSister on Jul 11, 2018 17:56:05 GMT -5
“ “I’m feeling very confused. Part of me is relieved that he can be reached. But there is so much extraneous dissemination, shifting of blame”. Don’t be fooled and don’t be relieved - you didn’t reach anything. He empathized with you and your childhood with your mother but in his mind it has nothing to do with him and present day. Shifting of blame - in his mind he is not wrong and he is not sorry even if he says it they are just words to get what he wants. If I were you I would play nice to keep the peace, have a plan, save money, and get a divorce - I’d also take HIM to the cleaners. (In my divorce I was fair, it was an equitable split but my ex was agreeable he even helped me pack). Elynne has repeatedly gotten this advise, but she seems to not get it. Elynne, I wish more than anything that you can experience the joy of waking up and taking control for your own life. I don't mean to be harsh, but at some point we have to drop the victim mentality, stand up straight and tall and start creating the life we want for ourselves. This distraction with trying to get your husband to change is ruining what could be a beautiful life.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2018 18:02:33 GMT -5
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Post by baza on Jul 11, 2018 18:43:50 GMT -5
First, I am going to offer an apology to you Sister elynne . When you first joined this group in March 2018, and started contributing in your very readable style, it seemed to me that you presented as being a fair way through the process and pretty much ready for the next stage of transition. Consequently, any observations / suggestions I was offering were predicated on that basis. I didn't realise just how far down the chute your ILIASM shithole had taken you...and just how low you had been beaten down to by your environment, or just how low your baseline was. So I want to apologise for that. The suggestions etc were geared to a person a fair bit further down the road than you actually were....and maybe 'are' still. This suggestion is - for elynne (circa July 2018) go back to your posts and threads of March 2018 and re-read them all in sequence. I think that elynne (July 2018 version) may be able to make more sense out of the observations / suggestions made in March 2018 than the March 2018 version of elynne was capable of at that time. You have been (and still are) on an extraordinarily steep learning curve. It might be helpful to undertake a bit of revision from the viewpoint of elynne (July 2018 version)
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Post by jim44444 on Jul 11, 2018 19:07:58 GMT -5
elynne , I have been following this thread, trying to keep my mouth shut because you are receiving great advise and great empathy from others. However I will offer my opinions of your story. 1. Your H is crazy. Not Steve Martin wild and crazy but psychopathic fucking crazy. Nothing you are doing can fix that. 2. Every time he is grossly abusive you challenge him, he plays nice for a few days, fucks you well and then reverts to his normal shitty self. He thinks he can get away with anything because past experience supports him. Sooner or later he will hurt you. He will hurt your daughters. He will not give a fuck that he did. He is crazy. 3. You cannot fix him. The therapists, even if they were competent cannot fix him. He is crazy. 4. You need to get out with an exit plan that includes protection from your crazy H. If you were still in the USA I would advise a gun and training. Good luck.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 19:27:50 GMT -5
I said you are not confused. When you realize a hard truth that requires action from you to solve (I.e. your abusive husband and incompetent therapist), instead of sticking with the truth you discovered, you decide to be confused. That relieves you of the tough work of confronting and solving the problem. It allows you to continue with the status quo and act like a helpless victim. You are an intelligent, insightful woman who is not helpless.
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Post by ihadalove on Jul 11, 2018 19:42:53 GMT -5
I said it in another thread, it's amazing what people will put up with. elynne I hope you can see clearly soon. An ex of mine had a pos bf for years. Anyone and everyone told her so. She knew it. But she kept making excuses, taking the blame. She finally broke away from him, probably the best thing she ever did for herself.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 12, 2018 18:33:05 GMT -5
The issue isn't whether he choked you in front of the children, it's that he choked you at all. That's enough to show he's violent regardless of whether the children were present. How do I miss these blatantly obvious things! I’m smart. I’m more than just a little smart. But when it comes to crap with H and the therapist I feel like I miss the really big stuff. It’s a bit like my perception is working in ultra slow motion, as if I’m underwater, and I’m struggling to grasp what’s going on and find purchase somewhere. I think it was NYCartgirl who said I’m not confused. But I really am. I’m walking around in a sort of permanent state of disbelief. Two people that I’m supposed to be able to trust (my husband and our couple’s therapist) seem to be turning things around. I’m at fault because I’m too sensitive because of an abusive childhood. But that doesn’t feel right. That doesn’t seem to fit. Closer to the truth is that my range of acceptable behavior is way too wide. I put up with much more crap than I should because my first reaction is to assume I’ve messed up somehow, I’m at fault, and I need to assess the damage and fix it. I don’t think growing up in an abusive home makes one see abuse where it doesn’t exist, but I think it does make it much more likely that you’ll get into abusive relationships later and NOT see it! The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility. Fuck that. I’m not asking to be treated badly. Just NO. Everytime she says something along those lines it pisses me the fuck off. I suspect that most therapists are not used to seeing the woman in the position of the refused. Truth be told the stereotype of sex crazy denied husband is so prevelant in society that the idea of the roles being "reversed" is a bit of a mind fuck for all concerned. When I got here I was truly amazed at how many women are in this situation. So it seems to me that you have a therapist who isn't truly LISTENING to you and is just going down a checklist that classifies you as abnormal. Your husband loves the therapist since you're on the defensive. What's not to love. The therapist actively assists gaslighting you! Seems you need a therapist with fewer preconceptions and bigger ears. It ain't you, sister.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 12, 2018 19:30:08 GMT -5
“Seems you need a therapist with fewer preconceptions and bigger ears. It ain't you, sister.”
Joint counseling doesn’t work with abusers. She needs to stop going to marital counseling and focus her energy on individual therapy, and extricating herself and her daughters from living with him.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2018 20:23:05 GMT -5
Wow. I’ve read enough of this very long thread to feel a little dizzy. elynne, I’m so sorry you have to deal with this. My heart goes out to you as I’ve dealt with similar behaviors myself for far too long. I hope that you can see your way out of the cycle. But mostly, what comes to mind is something my therapist shared with me years ago (and which I have only come to understand in the last year or so). She said that when we are locked into a pattern like this (the loop of dysfunctional interactions), we need to step back and ask ourselves what we’re getting from it. Would you able to do that Elynne? Just for a moment? From the outside looking in, what I see in you is a very intelligent and accomplished woman who may be lacking enough intellectual stimulation and meaningful work upon which to put your brain. You have an active mind. It needs to be busy. Since it is not (trust me, I know how mind-numbing child rearing can be), you need something to do, something to analyze. So you over-analyze your relationship, your husband, your interactions. Every. Single. Word. Isn’t it exhausting? And also utterly unproductive? What about stepping out of the loop temporarily and taking on a meaningful intellectual challenge? I realize your marriage is difficult, perhaps even untenable, but at the moment you’re unable or unwilling to solve or resolve it, so why not try a different tactic? As always, just my two cents. Take it for what it’s worth. I’m a huge fan of continually moving forward though. Looping is crazy making. My wish for you is baby steps forward. Love and light to you on the journey.
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