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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 5:20:58 GMT -5
“imagery used in joking threats to our youngest. I have to protect her. He got it. He talked about being aware of what he was saying. ”
Your couples therapist is dreadful. Repeatedly that therapist has muddied the problem with your h’s violent behavior, abusive behavior and in this situation, his grotesquely violent threats against your younger daughter.
The issue is not why you react so strongly to such words and actions. Your reaction reflects good sense and s normal, healthy protectiveness of your daughter.
You should not have to explain and jusityfy your reaction. Your h should have to do that. But, as I’ve ssid before and as research indicates, couples counseling does not work with abusers. Blame gets shifted so the victim is seen as the problem.
I believe you are not only wasting your time with the couples counseling, you are impeding your own progress. You put a lot of energy again into changing your husband who will keep using the same violent imagery. And The price of yesterday was your h and therapist’s forcing you to in tears explain yourself as if you are the problem.
The problem is your h is verbally abusing your d and crushing her soul while encouraging your other daughter to grow into the selfish, sadistic kind of person he is. You need to remove both daughters from that ASAP. He doesn’t need you to break down and discuss your childhood to know he is wrong. I bet he has the good sense not to choke his staff or patients or say to them the things he says to your daughter.
“But he’d never actually hurt them, she said. I disagreed. He’s choked me in front of the children, I said. He denied it. I asked how can you deny that? Our youngest was in my arms. Our oldest was standing beside me! But youngest was only a baby, he said. (Admitting that she was there!)”
More evidence that seeing that dud therapist is a waste of your time and energy. “
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Post by nyartgal on Jul 11, 2018 5:34:41 GMT -5
I don’t get it.
I don’t get why you would have sex with him, why you are still trying to get him to change, why you still have any expectation that he has the capacity to be anything remotely like the kind of partner you want, why you would keep your daughters in that environment for even another second. If you can’t leave the country, can’t you stay with a friend? Find a cheap place to stay?
I know how hard you are trying to make sense of all of this. I just hope that in ten years you’re not in essentially the exact same place, deluding yourself that crying in therapy will change anything or that once _____ happens you can leave. You can leave today if you choose to.
You deserve way more, but until you get divorced, you will never have the possibility of more. And that makes me sad. The years fly by...why waste any more with this toxic, abusive narcissist?
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2018 5:53:04 GMT -5
The therapist is an idiot! He/She said - “but we know that he wouldn’t actually harm her”. That’s the wrong answer, has she not heard of verbal abuse? There’s right and there’s wrong and you should not have to give an example from your childhood why something that is wrong bothers you. You should not have to explain to them why it’s wrong. As far as calling him out in front of the kids - good for you! If someone does something not right with or to my kids then I’m becoming mama bear and I will always advocate for my children - unfortunately at times you have to do that against their father. I always say “consider the source” in regards to what people say, well the therapist is an either an idiot or no balls to stand up for what is the right thing. Next time ask the therapist “how would you like it if your spouse or a grandparent repeatedly threatened your child with graphic violent imagery?”
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 5:57:40 GMT -5
“Next time ask the therapist “how would you like it if your spouse or a grandparent repeatedly threatened your child with graphic violent imagery?”
No. End that waste of time couples therapy. It’s not your job to educate and change the therapist.it is not your job to educate and change your husband. It is your job to remove yourself and your kids from a toxic situation and it is your job to help yourself and your kids heal.
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2018 6:07:52 GMT -5
“Next time ask the therapist “how would you like it if your spouse or a grandparent repeatedly threatened your child with graphic violent imagery?” No. End that waste of time couples therapy. It’s not your job to educate and change the therapist.it is not your job to educate and change your husband. It is your job to remove yourself and your kids from a toxic situation and it is your job to help yourself and your kids heal. I agree to get out of that house and stop therapy - at the time of my divorce my oldest, my son was 11 or 12. He was having issues with his dad and was begging me to divorce him. I had already hired the attorney and the best I could tell him was to calm down and things will get better. It was a toxic and dysfunctional household and I got my kids out of it. I also said I’m not accepting just 50/50 I wanted at least 60/40. Their father got the kids 8/30 days a month. elynne You are the only one that will advocate for your children.
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Post by heartbrokengirl on Jul 11, 2018 6:08:04 GMT -5
A quick update after therapy. I made all three of the points I wanted to make. 1. I got H’s agreement for all three therapists to communicate with each other. 2. We discussed his belittling comment telling me how I should be more polite (I am nothing if not polite and well spoken!) 3. We discussed his violent imagery with our youngest daughter. I was very frustrated with the therapist refusing to take a stand that such statements can be detrimental. She kept turning it to why I had a problem with it. I finally told a childhood story about my mother threatening to wash my mouth out with soap, and then sitting on me, holding my nose closed and shoving a bar of soap into my mouth. As I told the story, I saw the horror on the therapist and H’s faces. The therapist said, “What a horrible experience.” My reply, “It wasn’t that bad,” tears sliding down my face. H, got it though! He reached over to me, stroked my hand, tears in his eyes. He got why I react so strongly to his violent imagery used in joking threats to our youngest. I have to protect her. He got it. He talked about being aware of what he was saying. It was a huge relief to reach him in a way that all of my comments like, “Hey! That’s not OK!” didn’t do. But part of me wonders why he defends his unacceptable behavior so fiercely until I share a painful childhood memory. The therapist still insisted that I can not defend our youngest daughter in the moment, because having these sorts of arguments in front of the children is damaging to them. I told her I really struggle with that. That I’ve made a promise to myself and to her to always defend her. I asked, “How am I supposed to be silent when I have to protect my child? Where is the line that can’t be crossed? Am I supposed to do nothing if he follows through on his threats? I can not and will not do that.” But he’d never actually hurt them, she said. I disagreed. He’s choked me in front of the children, I said. He denied it. I asked how can you deny that? Our youngest was in my arms. Our oldest was standing beside me! But youngest was only a baby, he said. (Admitting that she was there!) I’m feeling very confused. Part of me is relieved that he can be reached. But there is so much extraneous dissemination, shifting of blame. Looking forward to my next session with my therapist to work through it. Do you have a safe place to go when you leave? Somewhere he can’t readily find you? His record of abuse shows he can and will escalate and you and your girls could be in danger if he loses control of his anger in a fit of rage. Where do you plan to go? Get out sister!
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 11, 2018 6:16:42 GMT -5
“ “I’m feeling very confused. Part of me is relieved that he can be reached. But there is so much extraneous dissemination, shifting of blame”.
Don’t be fooled and don’t be relieved - you didn’t reach anything. He empathized with you and your childhood with your mother but in his mind it has nothing to do with him and present day.
Shifting of blame - in his mind he is not wrong and he is not sorry even if he says it they are just words to get what he wants.
If I were you I would play nice to keep the peace, have a plan, save money, and get a divorce - I’d also take HIM to the cleaners. (In my divorce I was fair, it was an equitable split but my ex was agreeable he even helped me pack).
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 11, 2018 6:57:47 GMT -5
elynne, I'll concur that parents should generally strive for a united front with kids and deal with adult issues between themselves in private. But this is not a disagreement - this is your child's safety. That kind of gruesome behavior needs intervention on-the-spot, and it's a good thing for the kids to see someone defend them against bad behavior. Should you have the subsequent heated argument in front of them? Under sane conditions, not if you can avoid it. But should you intervene when the incident is happening? Absolutely. To do otherwise tells your kids that you endorse it. Your couples therapist seems to be defending your husband at times she shouldn't - I can only guess that she's discounting your complaints as cultural gap, and feels some compulsion to defend her fellow countryman instead of being an objective 3rd party. Regardless, you aren't getting good results from the process - to the contrary, it's only bolstering your husband's bad behavior by having someone join the discussion who agrees with him. I agree with the others who say you're doing more harm than good with this therapist.
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Post by nyctos on Jul 11, 2018 7:36:57 GMT -5
A quick update after therapy. I made all three of the points I wanted to make. 1. I got H’s agreement for all three therapists to communicate with each other. 2. We discussed his belittling comment telling me how I should be more polite (I am nothing if not polite and well spoken!) 3. We discussed his violent imagery with our youngest daughter. I was very frustrated with the therapist refusing to take a stand that such statements can be detrimental. She kept turning it to why I had a problem with it. I finally told a childhood story about my mother threatening to wash my mouth out with soap, and then sitting on me, holding my nose closed and shoving a bar of soap into my mouth. As I told the story, I saw the horror on the therapist and H’s faces. The therapist said, “What a horrible experience.” My reply, “It wasn’t that bad,” tears sliding down my face. H, got it though! He reached over to me, stroked my hand, tears in his eyes. He got why I react so strongly to his violent imagery used in joking threats to our youngest. I have to protect her. He got it. He talked about being aware of what he was saying. It was a huge relief to reach him in a way that all of my comments like, “Hey! That’s not OK!” didn’t do. But part of me wonders why he defends his unacceptable behavior so fiercely until I share a painful childhood memory. The therapist still insisted that I can not defend our youngest daughter in the moment, because having these sorts of arguments in front of the children is damaging to them. I told her I really struggle with that. That I’ve made a promise to myself and to her to always defend her. I asked, “How am I supposed to be silent when I have to protect my child? Where is the line that can’t be crossed? Am I supposed to do nothing if he follows through on his threats? I can not and will not do that.” But he’d never actually hurt them, she said. I disagreed. He’s choked me in front of the children, I said. He denied it. I asked how can you deny that? Our youngest was in my arms. Our oldest was standing beside me! But youngest was only a baby, he said. (Admitting that she was there!) I’m feeling very confused. Part of me is relieved that he can be reached. But there is so much extraneous dissemination, shifting of blame. Looking forward to my next session with my therapist to work through it. The issue isn't whether he choked you in front of the children, it's that he choked you at all. That's enough to show he's violent regardless of whether the children were present. And you shouldn't have to justify having a problem with such violent imagery. If it were in a movie, would objections be surprising? The one defense I could make for your therapist is that she was quite aware that the violent imagery was unacceptable, but also that H wouldn't be able to accept a simple statement to that effect without the justification. And that she trusted your ability to articulate it. She probably could have put it on him to defend at its okay to use violent imagery instead, but that would have run the risk of entrenching him in his position, and would have given him the floor to speak when I suspect it's better for him to learn to listen.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 11, 2018 7:52:31 GMT -5
elynne: STOP seeing this useless (and harmful) therapist STOP wasting your energy trying to make “breakthroughs” with your abusive, manipulative spouse STOP convincing yourself that you feeling like “getting through to him” on one teeny tiny insignificant thing (in the broad scheme of all your problems) means that something here is salvageable STOP second guessing yourself when you know in your gut that something is wrong STOP accepting blame for things that are in no way your fault STOP trying to make work a situation that is abusive and dangerous for both yourself and your children! START focusing on yourself and the life that you want to lead without this man in it START using your energy to move forward your plans for leaving START trusting yourself and your intuition START valuing yourself, honoring yourself, loving yourself, and realize you are an amazing woman with so many wonderful things to offer that are being wasted in this situation It is painful to sit here and watch you spin your wheels on things that are so blatantly obvious to every single one of us reading. You are an intelligent woman. Trust yourself. You know he is abusive. You know he has been violent and has the capability to be violent again. You know that SO MUCH about this relationship (both your marriage and the way he relates to your daughters) is wrong. Trust that and take action.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 7:52:46 GMT -5
“The one defense I could make for your therapist is that she was quite aware that the violent imagery was unacceptable, but also that H wouldn't be able to accept a simple statement to that effect without the justification. And that she trusted your ability to articulate it. She probably could have put it on him to defend at its okay to use violent imagery instead, but that would have run the risk of entrenching him in his position, and would have given him the floor to speak when I suspect it's better for him to learn to listen.”
There is no excuse for what the therapist is doing. Since couples therapy doesn’t work with abusive relationships, the therapist should have ended the couples therapy when the therapist learned about the abuse. The therapist should have referred them each to appropriate individual therapy. The therapist is incompetent.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 11, 2018 8:00:19 GMT -5
Lonelywifey’s words are worth reposting with this addition: stop saying you are confused. You know damn well your husband is abusive and it is to your and your daughters’ best interest to leave. You are intelligent and insightful. Stop spinning your wheels and wasting time trying to change your husband, teach your husband or fuck your husbabd. . Accept the truth and move on in a way that keeps you and your kids safe.
“It is painful to sit here and watch you spin your wheels on things that are so blatantly obvious to every single one of us reading. You are an intelligent woman. Trust yourself. You know he is abusive. You know he has been violent and has the capability to be violent again. You know that SO MUCH about this relationship (both your marriage and the way he relates to your daughters) is wrong. Trust that and take action. ”
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Post by elynne on Jul 11, 2018 10:09:32 GMT -5
A quick update after therapy. I made all three of the points I wanted to make. 1. I got H’s agreement for all three therapists to communicate with each other. 2. We discussed his belittling comment telling me how I should be more polite (I am nothing if not polite and well spoken!) 3. We discussed his violent imagery with our youngest daughter. I was very frustrated with the therapist refusing to take a stand that such statements can be detrimental. She kept turning it to why I had a problem with it. I finally told a childhood story about my mother threatening to wash my mouth out with soap, and then sitting on me, holding my nose closed and shoving a bar of soap into my mouth. As I told the story, I saw the horror on the therapist and H’s faces. The therapist said, “What a horrible experience.” My reply, “It wasn’t that bad,” tears sliding down my face. H, got it though! He reached over to me, stroked my hand, tears in his eyes. He got why I react so strongly to his violent imagery used in joking threats to our youngest. I have to protect her. He got it. He talked about being aware of what he was saying. It was a huge relief to reach him in a way that all of my comments like, “Hey! That’s not OK!” didn’t do. But part of me wonders why he defends his unacceptable behavior so fiercely until I share a painful childhood memory. The therapist still insisted that I can not defend our youngest daughter in the moment, because having these sorts of arguments in front of the children is damaging to them. I told her I really struggle with that. That I’ve made a promise to myself and to her to always defend her. I asked, “How am I supposed to be silent when I have to protect my child? Where is the line that can’t be crossed? Am I supposed to do nothing if he follows through on his threats? I can not and will not do that.” But he’d never actually hurt them, she said. I disagreed. He’s choked me in front of the children, I said. He denied it. I asked how can you deny that? Our youngest was in my arms. Our oldest was standing beside me! But youngest was only a baby, he said. (Admitting that she was there!) I’m feeling very confused. Part of me is relieved that he can be reached. But there is so much extraneous dissemination, shifting of blame. Looking forward to my next session with my therapist to work through it. The issue isn't whether he choked you in front of the children, it's that he choked you at all. That's enough to show he's violent regardless of whether the children were present. How do I miss these blatantly obvious things! I’m smart. I’m more than just a little smart. But when it comes to crap with H and the therapist I feel like I miss the really big stuff. It’s a bit like my perception is working in ultra slow motion, as if I’m underwater, and I’m struggling to grasp what’s going on and find purchase somewhere. I think it was NYCartgirl who said I’m not confused. But I really am. I’m walking around in a sort of permanent state of disbelief. Two people that I’m supposed to be able to trust (my husband and our couple’s therapist) seem to be turning things around. I’m at fault because I’m too sensitive because of an abusive childhood. But that doesn’t feel right. That doesn’t seem to fit. Closer to the truth is that my range of acceptable behavior is way too wide. I put up with much more crap than I should because my first reaction is to assume I’ve messed up somehow, I’m at fault, and I need to assess the damage and fix it. I don’t think growing up in an abusive home makes one see abuse where it doesn’t exist, but I think it does make it much more likely that you’ll get into abusive relationships later and NOT see it! The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility. Fuck that. I’m not asking to be treated badly. Just NO. Everytime she says something along those lines it pisses me the fuck off.
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Post by JMX on Jul 11, 2018 10:19:28 GMT -5
elynne - it’s like your husband is in a networking group of psychopaths. Did he pick this therapist?
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Post by heartbrokengirl on Jul 11, 2018 10:35:22 GMT -5
"The other big issue I have with the therapist right now is she keeps telling me that I assume an underdog position. That I take that onto myself. That it’s my responsibility."
Your therapist is gaslighting you. She should have her licensed revoked.
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