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Post by nyctos on Jul 12, 2018 20:44:06 GMT -5
I have to add my appreciation that you went through this, elynne -- I had once tried to get my W to marriage counseling and she refused; I see now there's a good chance it would have gone badly anyway.
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Post by ironhamster on Jul 13, 2018 19:28:40 GMT -5
I have to add my appreciation that you went through this, elynne -- I had once tried to get my W to marriage counseling and she refused; I see now there's a good chance it would have gone badly anyway. Probably. There is a joke, how many counselors does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change. Counseling can only help someone that wants to heal, and wants to change, and that will only happen if the counselor is headed in the same direction. I saw no point in marriage counseling, because I knew my wife would only go to someone that would tell me to be happy in my misery.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 13, 2018 19:55:57 GMT -5
I have to add my appreciation that you went through this, elynne -- I had once tried to get my W to marriage counseling and she refused; I see now there's a good chance it would have gone badly anyway. Probably. There is a joke, how many counselors does it take to change a lightbulb? Only one, but the lightbulb has to want to change. Counseling can only help someone that wants to heal, and wants to change, and that will only happen if the counselor is headed in the same direction. I saw no point in marriage counseling, because I knew my wife would only go to someone that would tell me to be happy in my misery. Same here.
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Post by shamwow on Jul 13, 2018 19:57:52 GMT -5
“Seems you need a therapist with fewer preconceptions and bigger ears. It ain't you, sister.” Joint counseling doesn’t work with abusers. She needs to stop going to marital counseling and focus her energy on individual therapy, and extricating herself and her daughters from living with him. You are correct on this.
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Post by baza on Jul 13, 2018 21:05:25 GMT -5
If you know you are in an abusive situation (and it can take a looong time to realise this) then the mission is to get out.
"Joint" plans, or "joint" counselling, or "joint" anything are totally irrelevant, as there is no "us" or "joint" or "we" happening in such a situation. All "joint" activities serve only to prolong the situation. They aid and abet the abuser.
What there is is "you" trying to get away from the abusive situation, and your spouse - who is trying to hold you in the abusive situation.
And, left to their own devices your spouse will do a pretty good job of holding you in the abusive situation all by themselves - THEY DO NOT NEED YOUR ASSISTANCE TO FUCK YOU OVER. They are quite capable of doing that all by themselves. Further, your spouse will in NO WAY be trying to help you get out. Quite the reverse applies.
Forget any notion of "us" - "we" - "the partnership" - "the team" being in play. You are dead set kidding yourself if you think your abusive spouse has anyone's interests at heart - other than their own - in these situations.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 13, 2018 23:11:40 GMT -5
elynne i think your couples therapy is worse than unhelpful. Again, I recommend concentrating on individual therapy to help you gather your courage to leave. I see no indication that any alternative other than leaving will be good for you and your daughters. Very few people on this forum have said anything other than basically what I'm saying here. Are you able to take in that encouragement and hear it? Honestly, sometimes I'm not sure whether I should post to this thread anymore because I sound like a broken record. What are you getting out of participating in this forum? I'm not asking that to be unkind--I'm genuinely curious. Do you feel like this forum is helping you?
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 13, 2018 23:33:40 GMT -5
Please tell us why you have continued with the couples counseling when you repeatedly have said that the therapist blames you for your problems and doesn't focus on your husband's abuse of you. We also have posted information that joint counseling does not work when there is abuse: What happens is exactly what has happened in your joint counseling. The abuser looks like the healthy person and the abused person is viewed as the problem.
What are you getting out of the time and energy you spend in that counseling?
And what is your overall goal? Do you plan to divorce or remain with your husband who has physically and verbally abused you, verbally abuses one fo your daughters, and treats his other daughter like she is his romantic partner? How is the couples counseling assisting you with your goals?
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Post by elynne on Jul 14, 2018 6:02:19 GMT -5
I know this thread is inordinately long: so a couple of key points. We’ve ended couples therapy. I told H that I think our therapist keeps missing the big picture.
I’ve started individual therapy. I’m going once a week. In our upcoming session I plan to talk to the therapist about the length of therapy. According to insurance policies she is allowed to do therapy requiring around 10 sessions. I like her, I think she asks insightful questions, but it’s going to take me more than ten weeks to unravel and process then deal with and resolve the unhealthy state of my marriage.
I sense everyone’s frustration with me. I get it. You see someone in a messed up situation who stays, leaving herself and her children in a less than ideal situation. And of course you think WTF? Just leave!
If he acted like this in the beginning; when I was still financially independent, was still managing an international team of developers and business analysts, still had self confidence and trusted my judgement, I would never have gone on a second date let alone stayed 11 years.
But the constant criticism, put downs, twisting my words, defining me in negative ways, flat out denying when he does something mean or passive aggressive, playing off put downs as jokes, and then convincing me and everyone else that he’s the loving husband and I’m just unstable and suspicious and read bad intentions where none exist, it takes a heavy toll. And then I start to doubt myself and wonder do I really create his bad intentions. Is he really a loving husband? Am I just completely nuts? Because I feel completely nuts. I feel like I have no holdfast. That I can’t get my feet under me. I don’t trust him farther than I could throw him, but I don’t trust my own judgment at the moment either. It’s leaving me completely at sea, suspicious of everyone and unable to make any decisions because I don’t trust my own perceptions.
This isn’t who I was before H. I had strong opinions and could defend them and myself. I trusted my own judgment.
I need to unwind the mess so I can see clearly again.
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Post by baza on Jul 14, 2018 6:26:10 GMT -5
"I need to unwind the mess so I can see clearly again" - you say Sister elynne . I think that mission - despite our divergent tales of how we got here, and despite the unique individual nuances to our situations - is common to us all. The pace of the unravelling is also individually unique. But in that regard, I offer you this --- The pace really picks up once you are out of the dysfunctional situation. REALLY picks up. So if you can get 'enough' of it unravelled to get out, then from a position of being out, your unravelling takes on warp speed proportions. Sister @elle might be the poster girl of the current membership. Joined May 2016...on the cusp of getting out July 2018. Lots of why chasing in between those two dates.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 14, 2018 7:25:44 GMT -5
“I’ve started individual therapy. I’m going once a week. In our upcoming session I plan to talk to the therapist about the length of therapy. According to insurance policies she is allowed to do therapy requiring around 10 sessions. I like her, I think she asks insightful questions, but it’s going to take me more than ten weeks to unravel and process then deal with and resolve the unhealthy state of my marriage. ”
Am I correct in assuming this means you plan to let her know that you would like to obtain all of the sessions she believes you need to heal and you will pay out of pocket after the 10 sessions covered by insurance? If so, great plan!
Yes you are right that it will take more than 10 sessions. What you need to learn is what is normal. You also need to learn to recognize and honor your own judgment and feelings. A lot of what you need to understand dates to your dysfunctional childhood. Actions that helped you cope when you were a helpless child are hurting you now when you have the ability and means to flee your abuser.
Glad to hear you were assertive and self protective enough to stop the couples therapy.
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Post by elynne on Jul 14, 2018 7:40:17 GMT -5
"I need to unwind the mess so I can see clearly again" - you say Sister elynne . I think that mission - despite our divergent tales of how we got here, and despite the unique individual nuances to our situations - is common to us all. The pace of the unravelling is also individually unique. But in that regard, I offer you this --- The pace really picks up once you are out of the dysfunctional situation. REALLY picks up. So if you can get 'enough' of it unravelled to get out, then from a position of being out, your unravelling takes on warp speed proportions. Sister @elle might be the poster girl of the current membership. Joined May 2016...on the cusp of getting out July 2018. Lots of why chasing in between those two dates. Has it been so long?! I have the impression that our couples therapy (begun in September of 2017) has made things worse instead of better. My perceptions were called into question, the isolated incidents of physical abuse were never resolved. And it seems H has only become more clever in making sure his unkind actions are deniable and it’s made him better at calling me abusive. I set a boundary like: “This conversation is circular and I feel attacked. I’m not going to continue this discussion.” He pretends that he’s actually just trying to communicate (not belittling me and attacking my character) then blames me for stymying communication. And I descend into a mental tailspin in trying to honestly assess whether I’m over reacting to criticism and being defensive or just reacting in a reasonable way to being belittled. Before the therapy, I was starting to recognize the “ouch” feeling when he threw one of his verbal below the belt jabs. And I was learning to call them out. After therapy he’s learned to call my reactions into question and get me to doubt my feelings. To twist things so that I’m the bad guy and he’s the innocent victim. “You’re oversensitive.” “You’re just being difficult.” “Why are you doing this?” “It’s not a problem until you turn it into a problem.” “You’re being coercive.” (That last one when I repeatedly explain our need for a second car or access to bank accounts.) I think couples therapy has damaged my trust in my perceptions and has made h more clever and emboldened him. On the positive side, (quite amazing that I still search for silver linings) I’ve been writing down incidents as soon after they happen as I can. Being as accurate as I can as to dates, times, exact words said. I’m hoping that this will help me to find my way back to trusting my perceptions and intuitions. With other people I’m very perceptive. I’m very quick to pick up on undercurrents and accurate in seeing what’s going on. I’m really good at helping others to see the other person’s perspective and to choose a course of action that addresses the issue and resolved hurt feelings. With H, he turns normal conversation into a fun house. Distortions, denial, shifting blame. Lack of logic. I think the issue is that his goal isn’t to communicate but to control. When I feel that, my reaction is to stop the conversation or argument and refuse to engage. This makes him angry. I’ll say “This argument is going nowhere. I’m not going to discuss this with you right now.” He pushes. I say, “If you keep pushing, I’ll go upstairs.” In my face he says, “If you’re going upstairs then I’m going upstairs too.” I say, “Then I’ll stay downstairs.” The whole thing is just too bizarre for words.
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Post by elynne on Jul 14, 2018 7:43:02 GMT -5
“I’ve started individual therapy. I’m going once a week. In our upcoming session I plan to talk to the therapist about the length of therapy. According to insurance policies she is allowed to do therapy requiring around 10 sessions. I like her, I think she asks insightful questions, but it’s going to take me more than ten weeks to unravel and process then deal with and resolve the unhealthy state of my marriage. ” Am I correct in assuming this means you plan to let her know that you would like to obtain all of the sessions she believes you need to heal and you will pay out of pocket after the 10 sessions covered by insurance? If so, great plan! Yes you are right that it will take more than 10 sessions. What you need to learn is what is normal. You also need to learn to recognize and honor your own judgment and feelings. A lot of what you need to understand dates to your dysfunctional childhood. Actions that helped you cope when you were a helpless child are hurting you now when you have the ability and means to flee your abuser. Glad to hear you were assertive and self protective enough to stop the couples therapy. There is also longer term therapy (no end date) covered by insurance. I’m going to ask her to refer me to long term therapy to someone who specializes in abuse and to continue to see me weekly until the long term therapy can start. There is a two month waiting list.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 14, 2018 7:52:13 GMT -5
Elynne, I am happy for you that you have taken the giant steps to get appropriate help for yourself. There will likely be things you learn that will surprise you and may be painful as it’s likely you will learn that you are wiser, smarter, more compassionate and more insightful than you ever have imagined while your parents and husband may be much more dysfunctional, untrustworthy and flat out incorrect about emotionally healthful living than you have believed.
The steps you are taking are not just for you, they are for your daughters and even their future kids. I wish you well.
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Post by elynne on Jul 15, 2018 3:14:10 GMT -5
"I need to unwind the mess so I can see clearly again" - you say Sister elynne . I think that mission - despite our divergent tales of how we got here, and despite the unique individual nuances to our situations - is common to us all. The pace of the unravelling is also individually unique. But in that regard, I offer you this --- The pace really picks up once you are out of the dysfunctional situation. REALLY picks up. So if you can get 'enough' of it unravelled to get out, then from a position of being out, your unravelling takes on warp speed proportions. Sister @elle might be the poster girl of the current membership. Joined May 2016...on the cusp of getting out July 2018. Lots of why chasing in between those two dates. Just double-checked the dates. In 2016 I was still in complete denial about the dreadful state of my marriage and still shouldering all the blame and putting on a brave smile in public. I joined February 2018, so it’s not as long and drawn out as it seems. Perhaps just the length of my posts makes it feel that way 😅
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 15, 2018 9:21:06 GMT -5
Elynne, while you’ve had some drastic back and forth thought reversals about your marriage, you actually have made swift progress in taking actions toward admitting the abuse in your marriage and taking steps that will help you leave your abusive marriage and protect your daughters. Because of your husband’s abuse of you and your daughter and inappropriate treatment of your other daughter, I unrealistically wish you had left him years ago, but you are making swift progress on difficult issues. And you have stuck around and listened despite getting feedback that upended your view of your life.
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