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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 11:51:12 GMT -5
There is when you marry that person and can't/won't have sex on the honeymoon.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jan 17, 2018 12:01:00 GMT -5
There is when you marry that person and can't/won't have sex on the honeymoon. Or when you do have sex, thier mind is not even in the same room, let alone in the bed with you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 12:03:21 GMT -5
There is when you marry that person and can't/won't have sex on the honeymoon. The immorality isn't the lack of desire for the partner. The moral lapse is in failing to be authentic to himself, to you, and to a possible future household that doesn't yet exist. Do I recall correctly that the two of you were each other's first partners due to cultural/religious reasons? One could be forgiven possibly, in following a cultural script toward marriage, without really having a good handle on what constitutes a satisfying romantically intimate relationship. In fact, my wife was quite experienced sexually (and a bit older than me). Beyond that, there's really no "trial" marriage - nothing can prepare you for marriage but marriage. It isn't generally the first 4 years that's the test. Either he failed in his moral duty to be courageously authentic about his feelings, or he was ignorant enough about the feeling and expression of sex and desire, causing him to fail to recognize its absence or presence. We can be angry and blame our partners for this - I sure have and occasionally still do (though I try to look away), but then I also have to come to terms that I ALSO failed to be authentic to myself DURING the marriage, and kept an unsatisfying relationship going far longer, and through much more than I should have.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 12:05:36 GMT -5
There is when you marry that person and can't/won't have sex on the honeymoon. Or when you do have sex, thier mind is not even in the same room, let alone in the bed with you. Someone you don't desire at all, who you are averse to, is fucking you. Imagine it. Now, where's your mind going to go to get through it? You want to focus on this person you don't want, who is fucking you anyway? What's are you going to think about this person if you do?
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Post by shamwow on Jan 17, 2018 12:24:02 GMT -5
northstarmom and @dan Just wow. And thank you. You are both really, really, really great. shamwowThe fourth option is that he really loves me and is getting his shit together, finally, but it took an extreme amount of pain to wake him up. The divorce would cost him millions, not hundreds of thousands, and after I filed, he didn't lawyer up. [This is an important data point.] He said, "No lawyers. I'm just going to win you back, and if I fail, I don't care if I lose everything," all the while I moved money and lawyered up. So option four is to put the dynomite at your feet put fingers in ears, close eyes, and hope he wins you back. It could happen. But more likely? Boom.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 12:37:48 GMT -5
“The fourth option is that he really loves me and is getting his shit together, finally, but it took an extreme amount of pain to wake him up. The divorce would cost him millions, not hundreds of thousands, and after I filed, he didn't lawyer up. [This is an important data point.] He said, "No lawyers. I'm just going to win you back, and if I fail, I don't care if I lose everything," all the while I moved money and lawyered.”
He probably does love you as much he is capable of loving you. However, there is every evidence including the previous reset that indicates he is not capable of giving you the kind of love you want.
It probably takes the same kind of grit your teeth determination for him to engage in sex with you as it takes for you to endure a sexless life.
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Post by Dan on Jan 17, 2018 13:14:09 GMT -5
There is when you marry that person and can't/won't have sex on the honeymoon. The immorality isn't the lack of desire for the partner. The moral lapse is in failing to be authentic to himself, to you, and to a possible future household that doesn't yet exist. Aside: I'm imagining his wedding vows: "Before God and my loved ones, I, Mr Surfer, take you, Surfer Girl, to be my wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, for better, for worse, for richer, for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love and to cherish, and to engage in crazy monkey sex, six days a week, for our whole married life, until we are parted by death. This is my solemn vow."
Maybe that is what you wished he had said... But I doubt it played out that way! Back to my post: I'm with Apocrypha here. If he promised something that he KNEW he could not deliver, then that is a deceit, and a "moral failing". But your case sounds more like it is born out of his inexperience with his own sexuality, and your cultural bias/assumption that "all men just want sex all the time". I think you know, but I'll clarify anyways: I'm not trying to say "let him off the hook" or "stop bashing him". Your pain is real, and your expectations and desires are normal and reasonable. I acknowledge that. Again, as a scientist/engineer, THE single most important thing to fix a problem is to have an accurate assessment of the problem. If saying "he's broken" and "he has a moral failing" is just you letting off steam, OK, fine, I get that. And if he is -- at this time -- drinking that Kool-Aid and that is causing him to act, and act seriously, and act with urgency... fine. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure you can find a lasting fix to the problem based solely on that assessment. It is putting him in a huge hole. It may eventually cause him to feel guilt that undermines a durable solution. It may eventually cause him to feel resentment ("why am I the broken one, here???") that undermines a durable solution. So whatever spark gets you both going to work on this, fine. But I think you need to find a more nuanced or more thorough assessment of "the problem" at some point. That is something you'll need to do WITH HIM, more so than with your new found co-travelers here.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 14:29:20 GMT -5
I'm leaning towards Occam's Razor: he had no tools to do conflict or intimacy and withdrew. I had no guts to walk away (steeped in religion as guilt) or take any meaningful action (other than to whine, complain and throw stuff once a year).
Fair enough. He deserves more credit. You guys are right. He didn't walk into the marriage intending to withhold....it just happened. I guess the anger and rage comes in that I've been pointing it out for 21 years and he did NOTHING about it until coerced.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 15:39:15 GMT -5
I'm leaning towards Occam's Razor: he had no tools to do conflict or intimacy and withdrew. I had no guts to walk away [...] or take any meaningful action I think my razor cuts closer. He had no guts to walk way and neither did you. No. I'm not saying "it just happened" (the witholding). He chose that over the other alternatives. And they might indeed be better alternatives for him. What happened was most likely that he didn't desire you or that he didn't want to be married. Either at all, or to you, specifically. You can love someone and feel strongly for them without wanting to be married to them. Which means that for 21 years, you also had the unsatisfying relationship pointed out to you (through his withdrawal from it) and you did NOTHING about it until now. And if I'm reading your notes correctly, your present intent is to stay the course. I'm worried that this might read to you like my intent is to blame you and that it seems unfair, or to invalidate your anger and disappointment at the absence of the marital relationship you both agreed to. My intent is to reframe this in the way I think you'll see it in hindsight, a few years from now. The only thing that's going to get you there is to take responsibility for the agency you have. You can't CHANGE the way your partner feels or doesn't feel about you. It's great to work on self-improvement - I totally get that - but the more you blame him for celibacy likely inflicted by an absence of desire for you, the more you assign your own agency over to him. He's going to take that and do something that aligns with his interests and priorities. Clearly, he's been choosing the same as you for 21 years - to continue with the presentation of a marital relationship.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 15:54:41 GMT -5
For 21 years, he probably has had a marriage he wanted except for your annual complaints about not having sex that he doesn’t want anyway.
For 21 years, you have stayed in a marriage that doesn’t meet your needs. You even have added children to a marriage that makes you unhappy.
For 21 years, he has demonstrated who he is, and for the same time period, you have assumed he would change.
I have empathy for you. I did similar. I assumed my husband was wired like me, but he was not. What I wanted in our marriage he didn’t. What he wanted, I didn’t want. He wasn’t the person I had assumed he was. My letting go of those expectations allowed me to let go of a marriage that would never meet my needs. I also let go of my resentment of him. We were incompatible. He wasn’t being deliberately cruel.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 15:57:19 GMT -5
ApocryphaGeez, man. And I thought I was cut throat. I've already owned my part. In fact, it's my belief that he has ZERO responsibility in what happened to ME. He showed me who he was, and then I CHOSE to stay. That's 100% on me. That's why I extracted myself from marital therapy and stayed in individual therapy for over a year now. He can do whatever the hell he wants; the only behavior I can change is my own. But people can and do change. I feel like you won't be happy and satisfied until I slit his throat on my way to the attorney's office tonight. I appreciate the insight and feedback and I'm still listening. The guy I'm talking about is a decent guy, in general, and you all would probably love having a beer with him. It's not like he's evil and that I haven't contributed to my own unhappiness.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 15:59:33 GMT -5
northstarmom That is exactly right. He was very happy with the way things were (except for my annual temper tantrum, a small price to pay for 364 days of bliss).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:02:32 GMT -5
I've been following this discussion from afar and your situation isn't unusual at all. Many of us are in highly functional relationships, with kids that are happy/healthy/well-adjusted and-appropriately-oblivious to our sex life. Many of us have a comfortable living, or better.
My two cents is that relationships always ebb and flow. There are good years, bad years and great years and communication about parenting/money/life goals and other important items including mutual respect are omnipresent in those healthy relationships. But some issues can't be solved with "you don't understand my needs" and then through the pointing it out the partner has an a-ha and they magically meet them. Motivation does matter but only short-term. There are some strong motivations in your case and your husband is putting forth a decent effort.
Now my caveat. I have long come to grips with my wife's lack of libido. I'm not always happy with it but I'm not leaving and we manage. Our compromise (no big surprise to many here) has slipped over time and the original twice-ish/month is now once a quarter. I don't bring it up anymore because I needed to let go of the resentment for me and because her libido and desire for sex has never altered for any appreciable length of time and I get it now. It just isn't there. When I was running marathons - not there. When I was fat - not there. When I made $50,000/year - not there. When I made $150,000/year - not there. Great years-not there. Bad years-not there.
I truly hope you both make this part of your relationship better and reach a livable compromise but libido can be like height. No matter how much I'd like to be 6'2", I can't do it with any amount of motivation. Maybe I could stand on my tip-toes for a day or two but it's not long-term.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 17:39:00 GMT -5
@tooyoungtobeold
Thank you for chiming in.
I hit 40 and my sex drive went CRAZY, which is why I'm sort of wondering if maybe I wait it out, it'll calm down and we can have a good friendship. I've always had a high drive, but in the last year or two, I NEED it several times a day. And if I find someone into me, let's face it, unless he is 20 (which is a turn off and I can't get into little boys--not my thing), I will still have this huge frustration.
I even tried Zoloft to stifle my sex drive. It didn't take it away though. It just made orgasm impossible, which was HORRIBLE. I stopped that STAT.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jan 17, 2018 18:24:12 GMT -5
@tooyoungtobeold Thank you for chiming in. I hit 40 and my sex drive went CRAZY, which is why I'm sort of wondering if maybe I wait it out, it'll calm down and we can have a good friendship. I've always had a high drive, but in the last year or two, I NEED it several times a day. And if I find someone into me, let's face it, unless he is 20 (which is a turn off and I can't get into little boys--not my thing), I will still have this huge frustration. I even tried Zoloft to stifle my sex drive. It didn't take it away though. It just made orgasm impossible, which was HORRIBLE. I stopped that STAT. Do you think it is age related or it is your mind craving something that you need? Even older guys can still have a high sex drive and have sex multiple times a day. I'm not in my 40s yet but I still have my same drive that I have when I was a teenager. SSRI antidepressants (Zoloft) can burn in hell. I know they work for some people, but it should be a last resort.
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