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Post by baza on Jan 17, 2018 18:58:13 GMT -5
"Why" your spouse behaves in a manner that has run your deal into the ditch doesn't matter. There is nothing - that is NOTHING - that you can do to about the behaviours of your spouse. You can, if you wish, go "why chasing", speculating, guessing or ruminating what your spouses' "why" might be. You might even actually find the "why" (though this is rather unlikely) but it doesn't matter whether you do, definitively, find out what your spouses' "why" is or not. You knowing (or not knowing) "why" your spouse behaves as they do makes no difference to their behaviour. Your spouse may (to be topical) have "porn addiction" or "dismissive avoidance" or (insert your favourite here) Whatever their "why" might be, the resolution to it is not a matter under your control. You can't fix it. That gig is theirs, and theirs alone. And it is optional. Your spouse is under no obligation at all to try and identify their "why", or to do anything about it. And, it is quite possible that nothing can be done about it in any event - even if your spouse is really and truly having a red hot go at addressing their "why". Of the options available to you, the disenfranchised spouse, fixing your spouses' issue ain't one of them. What you control is whether you are going to stay in the environment or not. And that's all you control. Stay (with or without the cheating variant) Leave. All perfectly legitimate choices. You mention elsewhere Sister surfergirl that some counsellor eyeballed him at some point and told him that he was 99% of the problem. So in an apportioning the blame exercise, he is clearly in the wrong. So exactly how has apportioning the blame moved the issue forward ? You are best served in these situations to let all the emotional air out of the balloon and concentrate on the known facts. Who's right/wrong, who's blameful/blameless, who has the moral highground etc is redundant information. It no longer matters who is right or wrong.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 21:18:21 GMT -5
Both
It wasn't about assigning blame. However, a lot of WORK on his side needs to happen if he's going to partner with anyone. In clinical terms, he was the "identified client" and while I have work to do (obviously), mine was dismissed three times (to be exact) and he was zeroed in on. I'm just giving you the objective, clinical feedback. I even begged one counselor to keep me and help me, and she's like, "You're the most self-aware client I've ever met. You don't need counseling." I disagree with that. But that's what she said.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 21:28:14 GMT -5
"However, a lot of WORK on his side needs to happen if he's going to partner with anyone"
But he has managed to be partnered with you, a beautiful, intelligent, successful woman for 21 years.
I was concerned about my refuser finding a partner if I dumped him. When I decided to divorce him, it ended up he had been supporting a child he thought he'd fathered 2 years earlier....
Based on what I've seen here and in my own life, should you dump him, your husband will quickly find another partner.
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Post by baza on Jan 17, 2018 22:46:09 GMT -5
Indeed. As far as Mr surfergirl goes if he ever finds himself single, what's not to like for a potential spouse ? Plenty of money apparently, a bit of a jet set lifestyle, social status etc etc. Quite an attractive proposition for some person I'd imagine. He might be able to attract his own 23 year old emptyhead if that's he wanted. He would not be advertising his "issues" to a prospective new person. And maybe, he could spin his version of a marriage out another 20 years. It does not seem that he would necessarily have to undertake - "a lot of WORK on his side needs to happen if he's going to partner with anyone" It might be a far more convenient just to find another partner and play the same scenario out again. It worked for him last time, it would likely work for him again - for a while at least.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 23:24:23 GMT -5
I agree. Men almost invariably remarry and much more quickly than women do. The research bears that out. For a man with money and a lifestyle, those odds are surely even higher regardless of his attachment style. It’s a sad reality, but according to my therapist, there are many women out there so desperate to be “attached” that men don’t really have to work very hard at all. If Mr. Surfergirl is working at the marriage now, he’s realizing he has a good thing or not realizing he could easily remarry. Either way, it bodes well for the prognosis of the marriage, imho. Remember surfergirl, you’re driving the bus here. You can take or leave our advice. Also remember that each of us comes from a different perspective and we’ll have a natural tendency to promote our own path and/or project our own situation onto yours. Take it all for what it is - free advice from people you’ve never met! Take what resonates and leave the rest. Something I’m reading and enjoying right now is The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkel. It’s giving me some great perspective on the evolution of marriage over the centuries and the cultural expectations now placed on marriage. I sometimes wonder if we aren’t just asking too much of marriage and our spouses. Surely we can’t have everything in life and in marriage? Food for thought. It’s where I’m at today.
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Post by johnwyo1 on Jan 18, 2018 5:54:31 GMT -5
@tooyoungtobeold Thank you for chiming in. I hit 40 and my sex drive went CRAZY, which is why I'm sort of wondering if maybe I wait it out, it'll calm down and we can have a good friendship. I've always had a high drive, but in the last year or two, I NEED it several times a day. And if I find someone into me, let's face it, unless he is 20 (which is a turn off and I can't get into little boys--not my thing), I will still have this huge frustration. I even tried Zoloft to stifle my sex drive. It didn't take it away though. It just made orgasm impossible, which was HORRIBLE. I stopped that STAT. Please don't kill your drive with Zoloft. That seems a tragedy. What you wrote reminded me of my experience as a young man, in my early 20's, with a woman about your age. It was probably the most intense sex with a woman who wanted it and wanted more that I have ever had. You have a great gift right now, in my humble opinion. Anyone remember "Maggie May?" Oh, not to brag but the experience of me having sex 13 times in one overnight and the morning was "Unforgettable."
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Post by shamwow on Jan 18, 2018 9:45:55 GMT -5
I agree. Men almost invariably remarry and much more quickly than women do. The research bears that out. For a man with money and a lifestyle, those odds are surely even higher regardless of his attachment style. It’s a sad reality, but according to my therapist, there are many women out there so desperate to be “attached” that men don’t really have to work very hard at all. If Mr. Surfergirl is working at the marriage now, he’s realizing he has a good thing or not realizing he could easily remarry. Either way, it bodes well for the prognosis of the marriage, imho. Remember surfergirl, you’re driving the bus here. You can take or leave our advice. Also remember that each of us comes from a different perspective and we’ll have a natural tendency to promote our own path and/or project our own situation onto yours. Take it all for what it is - free advice from people you’ve never met! Take what resonates and leave the rest. Something I’m reading and enjoying right now is The All or Nothing Marriage, by Eli Finkel. It’s giving me some great perspective on the evolution of marriage over the centuries and the cultural expectations now placed on marriage. I sometimes wonder if we aren’t just asking too much of marriage and our spouses. Surely we can’t have everything in life and in marriage? Food for thought. It’s where I’m at today. I think you're right about men remarrying more and faster than women. Research DOES bear that out. At the same time I find it puzzling that women initiate divorce at something like a 70/30 percentage in comparison to men. My personal theory is that most women leave for valid reasons and are somewhat guarded about landing in the same situation. There is also a cultural myth that says a woman doesn't need a man and she can have / do it all. Hence there is super high bar for a man to clear to make it "worthwhile". Most men look for sex and perhaps (sadly) someone to take care of them. Those are pretty easy hurdles for a willing woman to clear. But if the guy doesn't get his shit together (or pick better) it is likely the second go around won't end better than the first. Hence the increased odds of divorce in second third fourth marriages. The moral of this story is that failed marriages suck. But what sucks more is subsequent relationships that fail because one did not take to heart the lessons freely available from the autopsy of the first marriage.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2018 10:16:47 GMT -5
Apocrypha Geez, man. And I thought I was cut throat. I've already owned my part. In fact, it's my belief that he has ZERO responsibility in what happened to ME. He showed me who he was, and then I CHOSE to stay. That's 100% on me. That's why I extracted myself from marital therapy and stayed in individual therapy for over a year now. He can do whatever the hell he wants; the only behavior I can change is my own. But people can and do change. I feel like you won't be happy and satisfied until I slit his throat on my way to the attorney's office tonight. I appreciate the insight and feedback and I'm still listening. The guy I'm talking about is a decent guy, in general, and you all would probably love having a beer with him. It's not like he's evil and that I haven't contributed to my own unhappiness. Oh dear, I'm sorry. Indeed, I often speak ruthlessly in presenting an interpretation that people are trying to withhold or reflexively avoid. By "people", I mean others here and especially myself. There is a pattern that unfolds as people come here by the thousands across the years and pull on the "I'm not getting any..." thread, which begins unraveling along predictable seams. I can only offer my assurances that I don't intend to make you feel foolish, and if it seems that way, it's unfortunate collateral damage. I look at it as maybe helping people recognize their behaviors and the environment they are in as they move through various stages in a sequence that we've seen replicated thousands of times with very little variance in the results. No one can be TOLD the things we are suggesting. It would be absurd to think you would read a bunch of strangers on the Internet and then immediately leave your husband, irrespective of whether we are correct or not. I participate only in the hope that it might help you *speed along* your way through your marital sorting process with more assurance. The lack of assurance tends to favour the status quo. The goal - MY goal - isn't to get you to leave or stay; it's to help you get to the truth of your relationship so you can make informed decisions with some idea of likely cost and benefit, with a high regard for common setbacks. It might help speed things along and spare you some regret and humiliation. Consider my first entry in this thread about the open relationship. Understand that I am speaking from experience and try to imagine this size of the betrayal that experience must have been to acquire that knowledge. I'm aiming at: Getting to the truth of the situation. Being authentic with yourself - which is really hard. Helping your partner be authentic. Challenging the core assumptions and the way the problem is framed - Asking the wrong questions ends up spinning this thing out. In particular - empathizing with your partner's point of view - not be nice to them, but to understand them and what you are truly up against. I've had the benefit on some post-game analyses with my ex-wife now that the fog has lifted. If I had known what she was truly thinking on our wedding day (and showing me, but not telling me), I would not have proposed in the first place, and would have left her - which is exactly the immediate outcome she was trying to avoid by marrying me. I totally get why you think I'm bagging on you about doing nothing for 21 years, but that's not my goal. The richer ore (in my opinion), comes in understanding your agency, which - based on your language and examples, it seemed that you'd abdicated. I'd wanted to correct that, because your agency is the only thing that's going to get you out of the pickle you are in.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2018 10:42:08 GMT -5
It wasn't about assigning blame. However, a lot of WORK on his side needs to happen if he's going to partner with anyone. This tell hints that you likely have not yet arrived at a mindset that allows you to even consider the prospect of a separation as two individuals with independent romantic aspirations. It's not about assigning blame; I don't think that's the suggestion here. It's the payload that suggests you are assuming responsibility for his romantic life after the hypothetical separation. It's compassionate, but what level of success do you think you will have especially when comparing that against what you have when you are sharing a bed, kids, finances, a house, and dreams of the future? I've often found in dating "formerly sexually averse" divorcees that they become pretty liberated and enthusiastic in the sack, or that they finally do the work and sort themselves out once free of the marriage. I know - you aren't proposing to oversee his therapy or rehabilitation. I'm saying the mindset that allows you the option to finally walk away and mean it, is the mindset of "OK, you do what YOU are going to do and good luck with it, and THIS is what I am going to do." That doesn't mean you must actually walk away, but you won't shovel even a tablespoon off that mountain until you are fully prepared and willing to do it. That, and nothing less, is the only thing that has the slightest hope of changing the dynamic rather than repeating the same cycle. Sure. You are the client who is present in the relationship and leaning in. He's the one turning away. That's identical to how Mrs Apocrypha's stance was appraised by our third counselor, who took upon herself the task of keeping us together.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 18, 2018 11:10:29 GMT -5
northstarmom That is exactly right. He was very happy with the way things were (except for my annual temper tantrum, a small price to pay for 364 days of bliss). As passive-aggressive as Mrs Apocrypha tends to be, especially when paired against a formidable opponent in a conflict, she shot a potent comment when we were fighting about her affair. It's rare in my life that so few words changed my perspective so quickly. After decade+ spanning sexually-fraught dynamic that had reached a crescendo, she had an affair under what might have been some of the most cruel and vile conditions possible. When she admitted the affair and then attempted to continue the association across a year while ALSO trying to stick with the marriage, we got into some terrible fights. I recall telling her (and previously her telling me), that she was "very content with the way things were", except for my objections to having to endure a sexually unsatisfying relationship to preserve our family and lifestyle that she was holding hostage. I will never forget what she said back in that one fight. She said, "Let's not forget that I ALSO have been present in a sexually unsatisfying relationship." She wasn't content or happy either. Now, I KNOW that it wasn't technique. On a good day, I also know it wasn't because I was objectively unattractive to others. I also know that the really hard, transformative, personal work and self-improvement was done, and it was a veritable checklist of my worst deficiencies that she'd outlined. Dysfunctional couples are often really good at communicating what's wrong with their partner. So whatever it was, was bigger than all those things. In hindsight, the story that's coalesced is that she never wanted to be married to me in the first place, and possibly never wanted to be married at all. I'm skeptical about her claims about that, but her general stance on marriage falls outside the scope of her relationship to me, which is all I really will concern myself with. Once I truly grasped her statement, I realized that she was the protagonist and hero/martyr in her own story and I was the villain. She was the innocent princess trying to preserve her family, and I was the lecherous prince, ravishing her against her will. I was the one threatening the family over sex, whereas she was in the identical situation and choosing family, trying to manage to sate me with minimal harm to herself. When our second counselor asked us each, "What % of the effort in this relationship do you each think you are offering?" we each offered 95%/5% in opposite directions. She saw herself as the martyr trying to save her family, and me as besieging her castle with rapine hordes. Once I understood her point of view, I understood the size of the task ahead and it helped to change the scale and direction of the remedies I'd consider. Don't fool yourself that he's happy.
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Post by baza on Jan 18, 2018 18:36:24 GMT -5
Quoting you here surfergirl . "The guy I'm talking about is a decent guy, in general, and you all would probably love having a beer with him. It's not like he's evil"This is not in dispute. None of this is about whether he is a good bloke or not. This is about YOU surfergirl . You and your future. He (by virtue of the fact that you have kids) has a role in your future. That's a given no matter how this plays out. But to what extent his role in your future might be is your call. That, is the onerous responsibility and choice you have in front of you. Choice is a bitch. But no-one gets a pass on it.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 20, 2018 14:42:23 GMT -5
baza and Apocrypha Thank you for your thoughtful replies. I do appreciate you and everyone else here helping me move through the fog. The Husband is in 100% pull-out-all-the-stops mode right now. And I can't/won't get that from being single and dating, at least not right away. So I guess, for now, since I've been dumped by my Outsourcer, I'm staying in order to capitalize on the very very excellent treatment (hour long massages, sex, household chores, calling me and asking about my day, etc.). I'll leave when it stops, but at the present, I see no need to jump off this gravy train. It won't last, but I'm going to ride it. Just being practical, which is a small step forward in my opinion. At least, I'm choosing my path instead of letting my path be done to me. There's a difference.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 20, 2018 14:50:37 GMT -5
I can see why you are staying and enjoying your husband’s attention. My refuser never gave me what your spouse is giving. When I gave The Talks, he just stared blankly. When I decided to divorce, he went along with no argument. I wonder even now how long he had been out of love with me and if he even loved me when we married.
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Post by baza on Jan 20, 2018 19:58:45 GMT -5
I also, can see your rationale in staying Sister surfergirl . And - not that it matters - I daresay I would likely choose the same in your position. A life of financial bounty has its' appeal, at least short term. As ever, I am looking ahead to where this may go. At this point your spouse will figure that his re-set strategy has worked, again, like it has in the past. The past precedent is re-affirmed. So "if" it happens that you get up to the starting line again, your spouse will (reasonably enough) figure that he won't need to worry too much, he just needs to wheel out the re-set strategy again. The upside here is that you do seem to be "owning" your choice to stay. And that is a leap forward of no small significance.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 20, 2018 20:43:46 GMT -5
baza Right. Now I understand I'm staying to use him, not get a happy fairy tale. My expectations are finally reset, not the relationship cycle. That's an entirely different approach than begging for crumbs of affection and attention. I'll jump this gravy train when another deal comes along. I thought I found that in my Outsourcer, but apparently, I was wrong.
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