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Post by lwoetin on Jan 17, 2018 2:44:59 GMT -5
I sent the video DryCreek sent to me about the Coke machine to my husband. My husband understood it. He owned it. He said that he's been "out of order" the entire marriage. When I got home tonight, there was a jar of quarters on my pillow with a note that promised I wouldn't be wasting my quarters anymore. (Smooth, eh?) He has literally spent tens of thousands of dollars trying to win me back (some of it wisely, some of it stupidly). I'm not lying when I say that I haven't been a crappy wife. I think he'd agree to the divorce if I was a bitch. He cancelled his flight and rebooked all his travel arrangements so that he could be home last night when I drove in to give me a massage by the fireplace. He did. And then we had GREAT sex. (It's been a few months and seems to be okay if there is a draught and viagra first.) And then he got up at 4 a.m. to do his rebooked plans. That's not the behavior of someone who isn't interested. Your husband doesn't seem desperate that he cannot find another woman. And he's a millionaire. I'm pretty sure he can find many 23 yr olds who are looking for a sugar daddy. Your AP prefers a shiny 23 yr old. But your husband isn't looking elsewhere, he desires you. He gave you 5 reasons for winning you back. You are not going to stay forever because of your kids. He has to be the reason. He has to fill your needs (wants is another matter) though. Since you experienced GREAT sex.... .....I would say there is hope for you guys. How many here experience GREAT sex with their spouses??? Good luck to both of you. I am baking a cake. It requires flour, sugar, strawberries, etc. Marriage is similar...love, sex, friendship, etc. My cake is not that sweet but there is plenty of love. She is my soulmate and we have a good time. It will be snowing up to 4" today and kids will be off from school. Nice.
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Post by johnwyo1 on Jan 17, 2018 6:39:06 GMT -5
northstarmom and greatcoastal I'm super hip that I'm 90% being played. But thinking out loud-- what if he really did change and is all in? What more could he possibly do other than show up fantastically like he is now? Better marriage is possible. I have known other couples who have had one change, more likely both actually changed, and the marriage did resume with happiness and love. I can name two couples I know in my church now and others from the past. One was an alcoholic husband. So it is possible. It's difficult and requires the same or even better effort to learn from past mistakes, treat it like a dating relationship where you get to know one another now, forgive the past, and move on. If the time comes in the relationship to actually have sex, like in a new dating relationship, does it have a freshness and ongoing nature that will last? Just my thoughts.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 17, 2018 7:07:38 GMT -5
My vote is with the 90% sure she is being played. The sex life is not a matter of reviving what once was. It never was. I do not see how it ever can be.
I am seeing this from my perspective, which was also screwed up from the altar forward. My kids are older, my marriage longer, and the sexual relationship I expected and was promised never materialized.
I expect, coming from a similar religious perspective, that her husband will not accept outsourcing. My wife could not wrap that around her head, nor could she understand my frustration. I do not think you can explain sexual needs to someone that does not like sex any more than you can explain a sunset to a blind man.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 7:14:25 GMT -5
This concerns me. More than likely, he couldn’t maintain turning to you, not porn but blamed you: “About a year and a half ago, I put divorce papers on the patio table. He shrugged at first, but then got his butt into gear when he realized I was serious. The begging, pleading, fighting, gift giving, "romantic" getaways, phone calls started. He tried to have sex with me and got testosterone and viagra, which helped tremendously at first. We had our first time doing it THREE days in a row. 20 years of marriage and we'd never done that. Please re-read that-- not three times in one day, I mean one time on three consecutive days. On the fourth night, as he was leaving the bedroom, I asked where he was going because AHEM.... He said, "Can't you just BACK OFF?!"’
I suggest that since you’d like to stay, you insist on couples counseling, and let the e therapist know about your husbabd’s history of porn. I also suggest that you get involved in an online or in person group for people whose spouses are porn addicts. If you can’t find a group for that particular addiction, go to Al anon and listen. The substance of addiction may differ but the trajectory and results will be similar including the impact on you.
Your husband needs to get into individual therapy with a therapist experienced in helping people with porn addictions. Gritting his teeth and trying not to use por not working just as that method doesn’t work with people with other addictions.
I highly doubt that your husband’s sex drive had magically disappeared yet magically returned when you said again you were leaving. I think he’d been using porn then abstained to be able to fuck you I think he will fuck you a few more times then find a reason he can blame on you for abstaining.
Fortunately, you seem well off so can afford the therapies even if going out of town for them is required. You will both need to care enough to invest the time.
For these suggestions to save your marriage, both of you would have to go to all of the therapies suggested. Both of you would have to work hard and be honest in them. And with each other. Relying on his promises or willpower won’t change the pattern that has pervaded your marriage.
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Post by h on Jan 17, 2018 8:36:27 GMT -5
I think I can agree with the cautiously optimistic approach. I think that, while some disagree with religion, it does provide a clear set of predictable expectations. I sincerely doubt your H would agree to you outsourcing. He wants to preserve the marriage but it remains to be seen whether he will want to or be capable of making it the kind of marriage you need. Since he has never shown you the attention you need, I don't know if he ever will. It isn't like you once had passion and it faded away over time. It was never there. In that way, your story is similar to mine. My W and I waited for marriage due to religious beliefs. She rejected me on our wedding night and most of our honeymoon. We spent 10 days in Hawaii and the one and only time we had sex was because, in her words: she felt guilty for depriving me and felt sorry for me. On our honeymoon, I did not receive her passion or desire, but instead got her guilt and pity. It has been like this ever since with only brief glimmers of change that I now recognize as the resets that they were. I do not believe that she ever felt passion or desire for me but since we followed the rules and waited, we didn't find out until it was too late. I'm probably going to be seeing a lawyer in a couple months as my own timeline has nearly run out. I don't hate her but I don't think she is capable of change.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 9:07:10 GMT -5
No, that's not what they said. They all want the family back. My husband and I are good friends and don't hate each other. We have given the kids a really great life. In that respect, I think my story deviates from the usual.
I have the same problem. What are the chances that I'd offer free, wild, hot, steamy sex without strings and get dismissed/dumped by a single guy (with a disposable girlfriend--he says he's just using her to pass time)? Almost zero. But I pursued him and got my heart shattered. That's on ME. Not him. My subconscious is attracted to men who will discard me, even if it is hot and heavy in the beginning. It's like I have a radar and zero in on The Emotionally Unavailable. I'm working on fixing my picker.
DAs can be cured (depending on the scale and willingness to work--which is close to 0-1%) but narcissism is NOT curable. Jason Gaddis is the best example I can think of. He was a DA and now he is a psychotherapist, specializes in men who are shut down.
@dan makes a good point here. There are matches for people who are like this; islands should marry islands (to use a Gottman term). It works for some people. If you want intimacy, though, you are SCREWED.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 9:21:12 GMT -5
Let me clarify. Now that I've had GREAT sex with the affair/non-affair partner, I know what GREAT SEX is. I should've been more careful how I worded that. My husband has an 80-90% failure rate, so I meant to say that we got naked and IT ACTUALLY WORKED. For our history, that is really great. I do not have a high standard or expectation. He has a really hard time maintaining and/or finishing and there is a lot of shame there that he has to overcome (so kudos to him for trying). I guess we will see how long it lasts. (Ugh.) northstarmom The Husband has been porn-free for about 15 years now. It definitely contributed to our rough start, but it's not a factor now (unless you consider that his brain is permanently rewired). Still, I've 100% given up on being the Porn Police. Every guy does it, and if I don't accept it, I will not be getting laid. It sucks. I hate that there are so many men out there who can't perform with a real woman because of their obsessive use. I can't believe that I'm willing to do most everything you guys see on the screen and you still discard me (e.g. husband and affair/non-affair partner). And y'all have seen my naked picture on the Profile Pic thread. I can BRING it. So ugh....just fuck them. I'm feeling a lot of hate right now for my two discarders.
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Post by shamwow on Jan 17, 2018 9:41:25 GMT -5
northstarmom and greatcoastal I'm super hip that I'm 90% being played. But thinking out loud-- what if he really did change and is all in? What more could he possibly do other than show up fantastically like he is now? And tens of thousands of dollars... Wow. It sounds like a divorce would cost him hundreds of thousands. Good investment on his part. Now he knows you are willing to visit an attorney. You are willing to present him with papers. You are willing to walk out on your marriage. You are willing to send the kids into turmoil. You are willing to put all that on hold for a good fuck and sweet words / gifts. He now knows the game. He will be seeing an attorney of his own. He will be stashing cash. He will be (oh so subtlety) positioning things so that to the kids you are the "bad guy". You will be painted as unstable and maybe a little nuts. And God help you if he finds out about the affair. You've been temporarily bought off for trinkets and wonder if this is the "one in a million reset". I'm sorry if this is harsh (actually mean) but from reading your posts it seems you don't realize you are holding a handful of dynamite and you lit the fuse. Now you're wondering if by some miracle it will end well for you. It will not. You are not 90 percent being played. You are 99.9 percent being played and do not seem to realize it. It seems you have 3 choices. Get on your knees to him and apologize for putting him and the kids through this (cut the fuse) Follow through on your bluff and divorce him (throw the dynamite) Close your eyes, hug the dynamite, and pray the fuse is defective (boom) Right now you are firmly on the "boom" path. I really don't see a fourth option. Do you?
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Post by Dan on Jan 17, 2018 9:54:40 GMT -5
My subconscious is attracted to men who will discard me, even if it is hot and heavy in the beginning. It's like I have a radar and zero in on The Emotionally Unavailable. I'm working on fixing my picker. You're the business woman; I'm the scientist. You seem to be seeing two failures and declaring "100% failure rate!" I see two unrelated data points: a man who loves you (just doesn't know how to use his equipment) and a man who's good with the equipment (except doesn't have or isn't interested in activating the "have an actual relationship" subroutines). This is too small of a sample space to extrapolate ANYTHING. You just haven't found a man with all the required parts yet. This is not failure; this is par for the course if you've only ever picked two men. The romantics call the idea of a perfect match a "soulmate", and maybe you haven't found yours. Or: you may consider you haven't found a company which is the ideal merger candidate. Same difference! I hate that there are so many men out there who can't perform with a real woman because of their obsessive use. I can't believe that I'm willing to do most everything you guys see on the screen and you still discard me (e.g. husband and affair/non-affair partner). And y'all have seen my naked picture on the Profile Pic thread. I can BRING it. So ugh....just fuck them. I'm feeling a lot of hate right now for my two discarders. Experiencing great sex with an AP is a great experience to have had. That is not a failure! The miscalculation sounds like you expected it to be a discrete, exclusive LTR... and he never did. This was a miscommunication. But, by the way, most affairs probably don't work out that way. (They can... but do you expect yourself to get EVERYTHING right on your first try?) The percentage of men who "can't perform because of porn" is immaterial in this discussion. The vast majority of men are not a good match for you for any number of reasons! If you move on from your marriage, you'll come up with a plan to meet someone who is a good partner for you. I expect you'll find him. Now whether the pool is one in a thousand men would be good matches for you, or one in a million, I don't know. But.... welcome to life and the mysteries of love! You say you "hate your discarders"? Here you seem to be mapping features of your AP on to your husband. I don't see that your H discarded you. I think "hate" towards your husband might be circling back to the idea of why-chasing. I propose you hate that you still -- deep down -- don't understand WHY your marriage is sexless, and WHY your husband isn't sexual the way you think she should be, desire, and deserve. You hate that it doesn't make sense. I propose there is no sense to it. The way he is is not logical... but it is not illogical either. He is what he is. Again: welcome to life and the mysteries of love. If I had to summarize this post, it would be: "are you being too hard on yourself?"
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 10:09:17 GMT -5
Surfer girl said:”My subconscious is attracted to men who will discard me, even if it is hot and heavy in the beginning. It's like I have a radar and zero in on The Emotionally Unavailable. I'm working on fixing my picker.”
You posted that your mother was abusive. There’s the why for your behavior. What are you doing or planning to do to change your wiring? Willpower won’t work. If it did, you wouldn’t have stayed and had 5 children by your husband who virtually always throughout your history together had been unavailable for intimacy with you.
It will take you doing a lot of personal work to change your wiring. Neither your husband nor engaging in a romance with another man will change you not even if you divorce.
Individual therapy with a therapist experienced with working with women who have issues related to childhood trauma; self help groups like Codependents Anonymous; journaling (posting here can be a form of journaling; reading about codependency and similar subjects — doing any of these could help you become the kind of person you want to be. Then you will have the tools to make choices enabling you to live the kind of life you want. You can not change your husband. You can change yourself and your view of your options.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 10:41:28 GMT -5
The Husband has been porn-free for about 15 years now. It definitely contributed to our rough start, You know you had a rough start, middle, and finish so far, but what is the evidence do you have that porn "definitely" contributed to it? If he's been porn free for 15 years, and he's still having trouble maintaining altitude and clearly can't be a factor, how can you attribute the "rough start" to porn and not something else? Is your hypothesis that men (and women) who watch porn become less interested in real life sex? Because that's bullshit. What exactly sucks about the private, personal viewing and titillation choices that other people make? Who does it suck for? You? Is that based on your claim that porn causes disinterest in sex with their partners and prospective partners? Is it the idea that you feel porn "bleeds the steam" on people's libidos that should instead be saved for real people? The problem with that is that having sex isn't just a factor of being horny - it's also a factor of being "into" the partner, and "into" the circumstance under which you are having sex. What if I suggested to you that people, in the absence of sex or partner that they want still have a libido and enjoy porn as a low investment, low impact release? Gay men watch a lot of gay porn. Are you suggesting that this leads them to wanting and having LESS sex? What about women and vibrators? Romance novels? You know, a celibate marriage can make you think nonsensical thoughts, sometimes as a way to protect one's esteem from an even harsher truth by creating an external villain thatmakes it easy for others to validate your sense of injustice. Suddenly, the "proper" outcome as measured by 99 out of 100 people is that the partner should be ravishing you every hour because you do that thing with your finger, or because you love the taste of their ear, or because everyone thinks you are hot. It feels better to be validated that the dysfunction is the WRONG outcome, and to be told that. Your husband's lack of desire for you is incorrect. Your competitor is porn, rather than your own inaction at his indifference or aversion to you or to the circumstances under which your relationship exists. I'll share an embarrassing anecdote that will show just how absurd things can get. I came upstairs quietly once in my marriage to find my then-wife getting off on the shower head, and was consumed with fury and - get this - jealousy - of the shower head. I mean, here I am, a cunning linguist trained for years in the art with a person who thought herself non-orgasmic, and I eventually honed the technique to do the trick for her every time, sometimes in less than a minute. Like I imagine a lot of people here, I've taken an interest and learned the skills, if only to rule that out. I even had an argument with her about this - pleading my case against a god damned shower head.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 17, 2018 10:49:20 GMT -5
northstarmom and @dan Just wow. And thank you. You are both really, really, really great. shamwowThe fourth option is that he really loves me and is getting his shit together, finally, but it took an extreme amount of pain to wake him up. The divorce would cost him millions, not hundreds of thousands, and after I filed, he didn't lawyer up. [This is an important data point.] He said, "No lawyers. I'm just going to win you back, and if I fail, I don't care if I lose everything," all the while I moved money and lawyered up.
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Post by northstarmom on Jan 17, 2018 11:06:10 GMT -5
“The Husband has been porn-free for about 15 years now. It definitely contributed to our rough start,”
If he really is porn free (something I doubt. I work in the addictions field. Addicts of all kind are very smart and creative about hiding addictions), he may have achieved it by avoiding all kinds of sex. Sex — including good sex with you— could be a trigger for him to turn to his real sexual love, porn.
More reason for him to see a therapist experienced in treating porn addicts.
More reason for you to individually work on addressing your own dysfunctions including healing from your childhood abuse.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 11:46:14 GMT -5
“The Husband has been porn-free for about 15 years now. It definitely contributed to our rough start,” If he really is porn free (something I doubt. I work in the addictions field. Addicts of all kind are very smart and creative about hiding addictions), he may have achieved it by avoiding all kinds of sex. Sex — including good sex with you— could be a trigger for him to turn to his real sexual love, porn. More reason for him to see a therapist experienced in treating porn addicts. www.psychologytoday.com/blog/women-who-stray/201307/your-brain-porn-its-not-addictiveA thing most of us good at in "why" chasing is labeling our partners as the "wrong" party - showing them to be dysfunctional and causing all the problems. Framing the problem as the presence or absence of sexual activity makes it easy to do so. We start with the assumption that our party is in a partnership format they have chosen, with a partner whom they desire, and yet the sex is absent, so we focus on the sex as the part of the broken circuit. The enemy becomes the porn "addiction". Or that they "might be gay". Or that they are "aesexual". Or they have an affair partner. I got into a whole elaborate theory about "sexual anorexia", convinced that it was about controlling ME, or about a lack of control in my wife's own life - which was only fractionally correct. Then I got onto my own version of porn when I walked into my wife flicking her bean once or twice in our barren bedroom, and once felt jealous of a shower head. It certainly fit with my FEELING that I lacked agency in the situation, and on my DESIRE to settle on a reason that packaged the problem in something solvable, external to myself. The "porn addiction" narrative is almost certainly ideologically driven bullshit, and shady distractions at best. The most likely problem is that the ORIGINAL ASSUMPTIONS were not correct. There is nothing immoral or wrong about not desiring another person. The most proximate problem to the lack of sex in the relationship is the lack of desire for it with the partner - for reasons. Those reasons might be that the partner they chose isn't the person they want, or marriage isn't the relationship format that they want with that partner. Almost all people DO have a libido. Circumstantial depression can depress libido - a circumstance such as being trapped in a relationship that is unsatisfying - though not always (and every single person on this forum is proof of that). In absence of a sexual partner that they desire under circumstances that are conducive to desire, it's pretty human to turn to fantasy. I have a friend who is completely neurotic and claims to be almost totally aesexual to the chagrin of her husband. A Doctoral candidate in English lit and in training to be a librarian, her walls are lined with hundreds and hundreds of trashy formulaic romance novels. Addiction? Not really. Here's what's important. She doesn't want to fuck her husband. She doesn't want to leave the benefits of her lifestyle and change things up. Neither does he. So despite their different feelings on desire for each other, they BOTH maintain a rich sense of desire that does not manifest BETWEEN them. His ranking below romance novels in that heirarchy, or porn's ranking above a wife, or a showerhead's ranking above me in the sexual heirarchy - isn't an indicator of how absolutely vital the romance novels/porn/appliances are in their lives. It's an indicator of the sexual antipathy towards their partners. But even let's suppose that there is such a thing as "porn addiction" and he has it, and the "get thee to the therapist" wand cures him of this addiction. It still does not mean he will desire this particular partner, for reasons.
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Post by JMX on Jan 17, 2018 11:48:36 GMT -5
“The Husband has been porn-free for about 15 years now. It definitely contributed to our rough start,” If he really is porn free (something I doubt. I work in the addictions field. Addicts of all kind are very smart and creative about hiding addictions), he may have achieved it by avoiding all kinds of sex. Sex — including good sex with you— could be a trigger for him to turn to his real sexual love, porn. More reason for him to see a therapist experienced in treating porn addicts. More reason for you to individually work on addressing your own dysfunctions including healing from your childhood abuse. And, not to pile-on here but, how do you “know” he is 100% porn free? He travels extensively for work, doesn’t he? I suppose the answer doesn’t really matter and I agree with Apocrypha - Just curious about 100% certainty mindset. I am sure your husband DOES love you. Since the desire has never really been present, is it fair to say maybe he just doesn’t desire intimate connections with partners? It may make you feel better emotionally if you can frame it that way. I get that it boggles the mind. You are obviously attractive, great at your career, a loving mother. You KNOW these things and have a self-confidence some don’t possess - but being rejected by your own husband does play with your mind and raises serious insecurities despite all other indicators pointing to “it’s not you”. You can intellectually believe it’s not you and still subconsciously rage and act out opposite to your intellect.
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