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Post by DryCreek on Jan 16, 2018 21:08:42 GMT -5
Not to defend the husband, but I don't think he purposely withheld sex. (DON'T JUMP ON ME!) It wasn't personal, though it FELT and FEELS very personal. I think he was truly incapable of intimacy and did not have the awareness (until recently) that that was broken inside of him. It's certainly more sinister if he's doing it on purpose, but even if he isn't, it's still a problem. Being aware usually isn't the problem, and enlightenment isn't usually the fix. Acknowledging the issue, taking ownership, and making effort are all critical prerequisites, and he is doing those - this is why there's even a prayer that you could see a turnaround. It's instilling real change that will be the really hard part. He's the way he is because it's natural to him - either because you've both allowed bad behavior to take root, or (more difficult) it's just the way he's wired. Bad habits can be changed; instinctive behavior is really, really hard to change, even if he can see it.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 16, 2018 21:18:59 GMT -5
DryCreek If I say, "Wow, it's cold in here," he snaps back, "No, it's not," instinctually. Because he is auto-wired to ignore his feelings (and anyone else's). The promising part is that now I can say, "Please don't dismiss me like that. It is cold to ME in here," and he will apologize for shutting me down. And then thank me for pointing it out. It is very hard work (for him), but he's trying and staying in therapy. So getting him to look at himself regarding sex (packed with so much shame and avoidance) was/is HUGE.
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Post by DryCreek on Jan 16, 2018 21:32:44 GMT -5
surfergirl, he certainly sounds like an engineer type. There's only one perspective, and it's black or white. Some can be retrained / enlightened in social skills; the rest you kinda cringe for. Good luck!
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 16, 2018 21:36:43 GMT -5
That is a major breakthrough surfergirl@ and would give any of us a ray of hope. (Sorry to be downer) However I remember in my Divorce recovery class we had a Christian (not that it's important, but that is who he is) psychologist , who has written several books,come and talk to our class-he spoke about forgiveness. He also was asked about Narcissism. (I've quoted it on here once before I'm trying my best to remember it) The question was a very good one, "can a narcissist change?"
His answer was , "NO". He then went on to say, "lets suppose the narcissist is 95% to blame for the failed marriage, with years of therapy the best you can do , is maybe, change about 25% of their behavior. That still leaves you with 70% narcissist".
On the plus side you set a boundary. You stood up for yourself, you finally RECEIVED an apology and a recognition for being wrong. he sort of asked for forgiveness. You know what that is? That was hint of him being submissive. I guess the question is " did it make him feel stronger, more accepted, more loved? that he could actually put himself out there and ask for trust to be vulnerable,... AND THEN RECEIVE IT!? I don't know the answer to that.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 16, 2018 21:45:09 GMT -5
baza Thank you. Good point. While the clock is running, I should/could be doing other ACTION steps [since the legal ones are settled]. That will give me a sense of doing something, other than sitting around and letting life happen to me and starting the whirlwind all over again in 90 days... Thank you. That feels good and right to me. This is where I mentioned you work on storing and moving your finances, getting your exit strategy more in place. Not just sitting and hoping.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 16, 2018 22:02:47 GMT -5
northstarmom I have five kids still at home. The youngest is 10. It's never a good time for a divorce, but I'm unsure how to set up a worse scenario than a houseful of teenagers. baza There have been two conversations with the kids (last year when I filed and this year when I told The Husband I was refiling). They cried and mostly withdrew. I got the silent treatment and passive aggressive behavior from my normally respectful teenage girls. All of my kids are straight A very respectful kids, so the acting out was awful. I've never had to deal with rebellious kids, and I saw all the signs and behaviors that I would "lose" them to bad friends, influences, etc. As soon as we put the marriage facade back together, the kids relaxed and went back to their normal selves. I don't think they were manipulating; they were truly devestated. The Husband and I assured them together that they would still be loved and cared for and that we were a team. I asked my oldest daughter if she cared how *I* felt, and she replied, "No, I just want my family back." Our family is tight-- family dinner at the table (most) every night, game nights, we are the party hosts for all their friends, e I'd like to share my own experience and perspective on this. We need to talk about it some more. All 6 of my kids were teens (5 still are) when the "D' word was dropped. It actually seemed like a good choice. The helicopter mom was a bad thing. The homeschool isolation, and control from mom, was a bad thing. The "fake" structure between mom and Dad died a while ago. Having another man in the house (Grandpa) helped fuel that demise. What that did was make my teens, more independent. What I consider their typical teen years. They are more caught up in school work, homework, making friends, sports, part time jobs, learning to drive, bank accounts, buying cars, dating, texting, talking on the phone, sleep overs, friends over for dinners, going to friends houses, tv shows VIDEO GAMES, anything that has to do with a screen!!, volunteer work, etc... All these things have something in common? Less and less time and need for mom and dad, more and more independance. Hopefully it is also a good time to show them and teach them that mistakes where made by mom and dad and NOW LEARN FROM IT. Do as I do. Fight for what's right and stand up for yourself. Sure they say that little kids bounce back. I think teens have plenty of bounce back in them too as they continue through these formidable years. Then there's the reality of this new generation, not leaving the nest until after college. Then not being able to find a job. (still living at home at age 26 and still on your insurance) Then getting married, having a child and getting divorced. Where do they go? Back home to mom and dad's cold failed marriage in the big cold house. When does it end? Will you regret that you hadn't done it sooner for the good of the family?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2018 22:59:29 GMT -5
I'm super hip that I'm 90% being played. But thinking out loud-- what if he really did change and is all in? What more could he possibly do other than show up fantastically like he is now? I’m optimistic to a fault, so I’m going to give you hope here. We always need hope! I truly believe it’s possible that this was his rock-bottom wake up call and he may be changing for good. Therapy for a year is a real commitment. Good for him! I think you can and should be cautiously optimistic. I was wondering if you’ve given any thought to what might happen if he or your children found you and your stories here. Would that have any negative ramifications? (I’m assuming your avatar is you.) And also assuming your affair is a secret from him (and the kids). With image search, it’s not hard to find people these days. Any 10 year old can do it. I’m not trying to scare you, but I’d hate to think you finally have real hope only to see it evaporate because you’re found out online.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 16, 2018 23:12:57 GMT -5
@elle Yes, that avatar is me (not a great picture on purpose). But the stories are all real, and he'd agree 100%. My husband wouldn't come on here with a different side (like I saw on another thread). The only bad thing would be the unaware non-affair. Like baza mentioned, though, it seems so beside the point. I think he'd realize that he lit the fuse on it, and the affair/non-affair is over (but only because I was discarded). It would explain all my crying and moping. I actually want to fall into my husband's arms and have a man tell me that I am good enough, but uh, that's not a cool move. I'm heartbroken. Truly. Just devastated. It'd cause unnecessary pain. So perhaps I'll change out my pic in a few days, but I just wanted to get REAL and authentic. I want help. I want to change. I want to grow. I want feedback on my blindspots. And so laying it all out in full-disclosure seemed to be the most efficient way for me. I'm a problem solver. Though, I have to admit the empathy had me crying here a few nights ago-- that strangers would take time to help me change and learn and grow.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 16, 2018 23:15:12 GMT -5
greatcoastal Clinically, I thought he was a covert narcissist but a professional told me that he was lacking a few key traits. He is clinically a Dismissive Avoidant on a grand scale.
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Post by surfergirl on Jan 16, 2018 23:28:43 GMT -5
@dan
I know that Dan has told me essentially to take a CHILL PILL. But to my defense, I'm snowed in and can't get to my office. But POINT TAKEN.
You guys are the best.
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Post by obobfla on Jan 17, 2018 0:07:01 GMT -5
Ok, checking in on this thread.
It seems the only reason you are staying in the marriage is for the kids. While I am sure your kids would like for you to stay together, they probably would prefer you to be happy. While I am relieved that I am out of a sexless marriage, I would give anything to hear my wife’s voice again, even if we were no longer married. Trust me, there are things worse than divorce.
I am going to go into therapy, not just for grief but to figure out why I made the choices I made in women. Somehow, I have been drawn to mentally ill women. My wife had a severe mental illness, being paranoid and hearing voices. And if you thought she was bad, you should have met the women I dated before her. At least I didn’t marry them. Maybe I see myself as some knight coming in to save a lady’s sanity because I could not save mine.
I share this because the two men you mention have made you feel like crap as a woman, although in different ways. You deserve a man worthy of you, but you have to make sure that you deem yourself worthy of that man.
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Post by ihadalove on Jan 17, 2018 0:34:30 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 17, 2018 0:35:20 GMT -5
greatcoastal Clinically, I thought he was a covert narcissist but a professional told me that he was lacking a few key traits. He is clinically a Dismissive Avoidant on a grand scale. I did look up Dismissive Avoidant and read about it. (I hadn't heard of it before) It does sound 90% (or more) like a narcissists. I stick with that tittle, diagnoses, description, analogy, (whichever is the correct term?) because I have found the most helpful information about dealing with narcissism on sights like shrink4men,com and others. is there anything you could enlighten me(and others) about Dismissive Avoidant? What some of the strong differences are in Dismissive Avoidant and Narcissism? How to deal with a marriage to one? What to do for yourself if you have it? Or your spouse does? jebkinnison.com/bad-boyfriends-the-book/type-dismissive-avoidant/pairedlife.com/problems/dismissive-avoidant-partner
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 17, 2018 0:45:08 GMT -5
This is a really common claim in these situations. I'm a man who has dated many women who are separated or divorced, and who has an ex-wife who made the same claim about herself in marriage, that she was less capable of intimacy and didn't realize that she was broken. But, change the partner out, or the scenario of the unwanted marriage out - and suddenly they become very capable of intimacy.
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Post by Dan on Jan 17, 2018 1:24:24 GMT -5
Two thoughts: I almost have a bit of empathy for this guy right now: he is probably getting a friction burn from how fast you are making his world move right now. I build companies. That's what I do, and so the go, go, go kinda helps that. But I totally GET YOU. I'm a lot of DRIVE. Hell, you have even me feeling sorry for The Husband right now (okay, I'm done feeling sorry now...lol) I think you have to view your marriage as a marathon, not a sprint. You need to train him to be IN IT FOR THE LONG HAUL. A quick turn around is admirable -- or even miraculous -- but not if it means he can only hold up the "sprint" for a few days, and then give up. Can you turn him in to keeping pace with you in the marathon of your life, business.... and the sexual and intimate part of your marriage? (And: sounds like you spent the right amount of time feeling sorry for him... I still want to punch him, and he's only been annoying me for these past few days...) Not to defend the husband, but I don't think he purposely withheld sex. (DON'T JUMP ON ME!) It wasn't personal, though it FELT and FEELS very personal. I think he was truly incapable of intimacy and did not have the awareness (until recently) that that was broken inside of him. On this, please note: people who don't want or can't have intimacy are not broken... they just shouldn't be married to people who crave and require quality intimacy.
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