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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 20:04:11 GMT -5
Ah Brother Phin. The temptation this morning to go back to that post and re-write it or delete it was almost overwhelming !!! Note to self - after entertaining a group of mates sinking beers and watching the footy, do NOT touch computer. Still a good post, if a bit optimistic, but then grog and victory will have that effect. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 20:12:42 GMT -5
Shits hitting the fan here tonight. I just told him I want out. Again. My eyes hurt. I'm finding solace in the ironing pile. He has this way of making me feel like I'm wrong to want intimacy and love. He said he's quitting therapy??? I don't get it. I just want to disappear 😥 Don't tell him you want out. Tell him you're out. After consulting an attorney of course. I'm sorry, I'm just in a bitchy mood tonight, but why do people feel like they almost have to ask for permission to get a divorce? If you want out, plan to get out with or without his agreement. No, it's not just that easy, but do you think it will be easier to secure his agreement? Not bitching at you in particular. I'm just getting my periodic case of ILIASM burnout and may need to take a break. But people, in the US at least...YOU DON'T NEED THEIR AGREEMENT! |
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Post by JMX on Jul 17, 2016 20:21:44 GMT -5
So sad because sex and intimacy if there's attraction is the easy part. At least it should be. You know? This is maybe the one time I disagree with you. I think it's highly plausible that Mrs. Tiger is scared of intimacy (which is how this reads). She also *may* have a legitimate fear of abandonment. Some people's language cannot include sex and intimacy if everyone important to them leaves them. The fact that she actually said it out loud is pretty interesting and maybe worth (at least) exploring. If she cannot get out of the cave, for his own sake, he should leave her there, but maybe worth a shot (and no, I am not as drunk as Baz but working on it). What you say is actually very healthy. All people should work towards intimacy, some just don't have the tools and it may not be their strong suit. Could an extreme introvert (think hermit) learn to meet people? I sure hope so! Their life would probably be better in the long run - but unless they recognize it as an issue and do something about it, there's no helping them. We're she a hermit, she just reached for a life preserver by admitting it was a problem. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 20:59:13 GMT -5
She also reminded me, "I told you, so many times, that your deserved better than me," which I hated her saying, and I thought was just her being down on herself. This type of statement (with added tears for extra emotional effect) can be viewed as purely a covert manipulation making them the victim of this statement whom you as a good person are protective of and don't want to hurt. It's a tactic which you (I) have probably been sucked into far too often. You feel bad for them and backpedal as fast as you can to avoid the cataclysm. An alternative reaction is to agree with your refuser (you both know it's true). Yes I do deserve better. Ask her: Can you be the wife, the partner, the lover I deserve? And maybe it's even time for: If you can't be that person I don't think we can be together anymore. But don't use that last section until you can actually mean it otherwise you're simply engaging in your own version of tit for tat manipulation inflicting emotional wounds to get your own back. Understandable but not good or helpful to resolving the situation. Oh and timetables and consequences. All of this will come to naught if she has unlimited time and no fear of you actually doing anything Negotiation tactics 101 courtesy of HL42, one of the few ep correspondents to ever credibly revived a SM 100% right. That type of statement is pure manipulation. They are lowering the bar for themselves. It absolves them of trying, under the facade of honesty. I understand how some responding are thinking she's just being honest, but she's not. She's playing him. She's putting all the responsibility for the relationship on him, and when it goes to hell she can say I warned you and then he'll say oh yeah you did, and she gets another six sex-free married months. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 17, 2016 21:31:09 GMT -5
So sad because sex and intimacy if there's attraction is the easy part. At least it should be. You know? This is maybe the one time I disagree with you. I think it's highly plausible that Mrs. Tiger is scared of intimacy (which is how this reads). She also *may* have a legitimate fear of abandonment. Some people's language cannot include sex and intimacy if everyone important to them leaves them. The fact that she actually said it out loud is pretty interesting and maybe worth (at least) exploring. If she cannot get out of the cave, for his own sake, he should leave her there, but maybe worth a shot (and no, I am not as drunk as Baz but working on it). What you say is actually very healthy. All people should work towards intimacy, some just don't have the tools and it may not be their strong suit. Could an extreme introvert (think hermit) learn to meet people? I sure hope so! Their life would probably be better in the long run - but unless they recognize it as an issue and do something about it, there's no helping them. We're she a hermit, she just reached for a life preserver by admitting it was a problem. I think you're on to something with that fear of intimacy- after all, she was single and celibate for 7 years before we started dating, and her family is very arms length when it comes to talking about touchy feely things, and I know my big, loud, physically affectionate family makes her at the very least uncomfortable. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 17, 2016 22:31:58 GMT -5
So sad because sex and intimacy if there's attraction is the easy part. At least it should be. You know? This is maybe the one time I disagree with you. I think it's highly plausible that Mrs. Tiger is scared of intimacy (which is how this reads). She also *may* have a legitimate fear of abandonment. Some people's language cannot include sex and intimacy if everyone important to them leaves them. The fact that she actually said it out loud is pretty interesting and maybe worth (at least) exploring. If she cannot get out of the cave, for his own sake, he should leave her there, but maybe worth a shot (and no, I am not as drunk as Baz but working on it). What you say is actually very healthy. All people should work towards intimacy, some just don't have the tools and it may not be their strong suit. Could an extreme introvert (think hermit) learn to meet people? I sure hope so! Their life would probably be better in the long run - but unless they recognize it as an issue and do something about it, there's no helping them. We're she a hermit, she just reached for a life preserver by admitting it was a problem. I see your point and that's very true. Not everyone is capable of it for whatever their reasons. Which comes back to basic incompatibility. |
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Post by unmatched on Jul 18, 2016 1:55:48 GMT -5
You know? This is maybe the one time I disagree with you. I think it's highly plausible that Mrs. Tiger is scared of intimacy (which is how this reads). She also *may* have a legitimate fear of abandonment. Some people's language cannot include sex and intimacy if everyone important to them leaves them. The fact that she actually said it out loud is pretty interesting and maybe worth (at least) exploring. If she cannot get out of the cave, for his own sake, he should leave her there, but maybe worth a shot (and no, I am not as drunk as Baz but working on it). What you say is actually very healthy. All people should work towards intimacy, some just don't have the tools and it may not be their strong suit. Could an extreme introvert (think hermit) learn to meet people? I sure hope so! Their life would probably be better in the long run - but unless they recognize it as an issue and do something about it, there's no helping them. We're she a hermit, she just reached for a life preserver by admitting it was a problem. I see your point and that's very true. Not everyone is capable of it for whatever their reasons. Which comes back to basic incompatibility. And time. Maybe she can work on it. Maybe she can go to counselling and try and understand what is going on and try to change what has over time become her basic nature. Maybe. But it is not easy even IF she is deeply committed to doing it. I think when you are in that state it is very hard to look at intimacy as something you want, or something you are missing. You can kind of see that other people want it, and that it is affecting your relationships, but it is a bit like being told you have to eat something disgusting for the sake of your health. There is no actual desire there. So how much time do you give it? At what point do you switch from 'I think there is definite unrealised potential here' to 'What she actually does is what tells you who she is'? Because you can very easily stay in Camp A forever. I will testify to that. |
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Post by bballgirl on Jul 18, 2016 5:16:34 GMT -5
I see your point and that's very true. Not everyone is capable of it for whatever their reasons. Which comes back to basic incompatibility. And time. Maybe she can work on it. Maybe she can go to counselling and try and understand what is going on and try to change what has over time become her basic nature. Maybe. But it is not easy even IF she is deeply committed to doing it. I think when you are in that state it is very hard to look at intimacy as something you want, or something you are missing. You can kind of see that other people want it, and that it is affecting your relationships, but it is a bit like being told you have to eat something disgusting for the sake of your health. There is no actual desire there. So how much time do you give it? At what point do you switch from 'I think there is definite unrealised potential here' to 'What she actually does is what tells you who she is'? Because you can very easily stay in Camp A forever. I will testify to that. To answer your questions about time I would give it a year max from when you had the talk about you need them to change. That's a fair amount of time. With my ex the night I told him I wanted a divorce my monologue opened with "a year ago we said we were going to work on the marriage and neither one of us have worked on it, I'm not happy and I don't want to be married anymore". As far as the switch/potential - For me the switch came with me. It got to a point where I could no longer be with my husband anymore. All of the years of rejection made that impossible. So I don't think people can easily stay in that camp but they can stay. |
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Post by iceman on Jul 18, 2016 8:12:22 GMT -5
She also reminded me, "I told you, so many times, that your deserved better than me," which I hated her saying, and I thought was just her being down on herself. That's messed up. How are you supposed to react to that? It's your fault that you haven't bolted to someone she feels can treat you as you deserve? My wife has told me on multiple occasions 'I know I'm a disappointment to you and I take you for granted'. I think she's trying to get me to tell her that I understand and it's okay. Well, it's not okay and as hard as I try I can't understand. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 18, 2016 9:12:05 GMT -5
That is my wife's theory too! Don't ever get too involved or too hopeful about anything because then it won't hurt so much to lose it. The fact that it makes the loss so much more likely, and stops you enjoying the life you do have, is apparently irrelevant. That means SHE has some problems. SHE needs therapy. It's not your job to fix her. You were not born on this earth, in this lifetime, to use up all the years of your life trying to fix her. Now, maybe you two crossed paths for a reason. Maybe you were meant to be a wake-up call to her. (And maybe vice versa, too.) But ultimately, any big changes to her worldview, attitude and beliefs have to be done internally, by her. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 18, 2016 10:19:14 GMT -5
That is my wife's theory too! Don't ever get too involved or too hopeful about anything because then it won't hurt so much to lose it. The fact that it makes the loss so much more likely, and stops you enjoying the life you do have, is apparently irrelevant. That means SHE has some problems. SHE needs therapy. It's not your job to fix her. You were not born on this earth, in this lifetime, to use up all the years of your life trying to fix her. Now, maybe you two crossed paths for a reason. Maybe you were meant to be a wake-up call to her. (And maybe vice versa, too.) But ultimately, any big changes to her worldview, attitude and beliefs have to be done internally, by her. I've found my thoughts have wandered a lot to the question of whether or not we should have gotten married when we did; I agree that the universe brought our paths in contact for a reason, but maybe it was just supposed to be as a wake-up call, years ago when things started to first get bad for her. More things to talk about with my therapist, I guess. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 18, 2016 13:15:06 GMT -5
...and we're scheduled with therapist (the one she hasn't seen since February) the day after tomorrow. Frankly I'm already a little bit wary, because she's kept filling my wife's antianxiety medication prescription for the last five months, and because I suspect my wife has managed to sidestep a lot of the uncomfortable stuff in the sessions she did go to, based on what she told me afterwards.
I'm planning on jumping in headlong regardless and trying to accomplish as much as possible in the time we have.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 18, 2016 13:52:39 GMT -5
...and we're scheduled with therapist (the one she hasn't seen since February) the day after tomorrow. Frankly I'm already a little bit wary, because she's kept filling my wife's antianxiety medication prescription for the last five months, and because I suspect my wife has managed to sidestep a lot of the uncomfortable stuff in the sessions she did go to, based on what she told me afterwards. I'm planning on jumping in headlong regardless and trying to accomplish as much as possible in the time we have. Right it down my friend! Type it out, pages of questions, an documents of examples. Copy many of your comments from here. The therapists will have three main concerns. Hearing both of you. Being heard by both of you, and making it so both of you will want to come back . That leaves you with little time to speak and a whole lot of time to have to listen. Even if you don't get to speak your questions. Wright down your concerns, put it in a sealed envelope and hand it to the therapist. Ask the therapist repeatedly, " have you read them ? When can we discuss them. Document your wife's " avoidance tactics" bring those up later. Ask for one on one counciling. MOHO. Getting a simple conformation" that you are not at fault, she has big issues to face that are out of your control" by someone who has seen these issues and deals with them . Will do a world of good for boosting your confidence and self esteem. your simply shining light on the truth. You will be hated it for it as well. Truth hurts sometimes. Truth sets you free. |
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 18, 2016 15:35:33 GMT -5
...and we're scheduled with therapist (the one she hasn't seen since February) the day after tomorrow. Frankly I'm already a little bit wary, because she's kept filling my wife's antianxiety medication prescription for the last five months, and because I suspect my wife has managed to sidestep a lot of the uncomfortable stuff in the sessions she did go to, based on what she told me afterwards. I'm planning on jumping in headlong regardless and trying to accomplish as much as possible in the time we have. Right it down my friend! Type it out, pages of questions, an documents of examples. Copy many of your comments from here. The therapists will have three main concerns. Hearing both of you. Being heard by both of you, and making it so both of you will want to come back . That leaves you with little time to speak and a whole lot of time to have to listen. Even if you don't get to speak your questions. Wright down your concerns, put it in a sealed envelope and hand it to the therapist. Ask the therapist repeatedly, " have you read them ? When can we discuss them. Document your wife's " avoidance tactics" bring those up later. Ask for one on one counciling. MOHO. Getting a simple conformation" that you are not at fault, she has big issues to face that are out of your control" by someone who has seen these issues and deals with them . Will do a world of good for boosting your confidence and self esteem. your simply shining light on the truth. You will be hated it for it as well. Truth hurts sometimes. Truth sets you free. I've spent the weekend writing down all my thoughts, feelings, questions, concerns, and doubts into a journal that I'm planning on bringing. I like the idea of the envelope of questions too. |
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Post by JMX on Jul 18, 2016 23:16:17 GMT -5
That means SHE has some problems. SHE needs therapy. It's not your job to fix her. You were not born on this earth, in this lifetime, to use up all the years of your life trying to fix her. Now, maybe you two crossed paths for a reason. Maybe you were meant to be a wake-up call to her. (And maybe vice versa, too.) But ultimately, any big changes to her worldview, attitude and beliefs have to be done internally, by her. I've found my thoughts have wandered a lot to the question of whether or not we should have gotten married when we did; I agree that the universe brought our paths in contact for a reason, but maybe it was just supposed to be as a wake-up call, years ago when things started to first get bad for her. More things to talk about with my therapist, I guess. Yes! But what are you learning from this experience. Please forgive, I am coming off of werewolf week and into self-contemplative (self-misery) week before Shark Week, so take all of this with a grain of salt. I have heard one speak on this dynamic (not this particular dynamic). Basically, we are mirrors making each other SEE what we didn't want to see about ourselves. I ask the group and I will try and piece together my level of misery and what I should be learning from it - how does that mirror tell you what you needed to know about yourself? By all (MY) accounts - I am a (basically) good person, I love people and try really hard to make them feel at ease. What am I doing wrong? I want attention all of the time. I see it in my youngest. She is me. I find her fascinating and smart and witty. I idolize these things because they remind me of myself. My oldest is a tree. She is full of knowledge but quiet and to herself. She does not come from an abusive home! She needs her "down" time and her sister as well as me - drive her INSANE when we push our communication styles on her. She wants and NEEDS her downtime. She is her Father's child. Why did I hook up with such a man? Because I needed balance. I am an attention whore. I need the balance. This is devil's advocate. But at what point have we or do we need to "give"a little understanding to get understanding? This is rhetorical and please do not flame me. I am just curious. |
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