The Talk

She also reminded me, "I told you, so many times, that your deserved better than me," which I hated her saying, and I thought was just her being down on herself.

And yet, you stay. I'm not picking on you, warmways. Others have said the same about their refusers. But we don't have to dissect very much to see that in a strange way, they are right. They are keeping their spouses at arm's length and not having sex and the spouses are staying. They seem happy with the arrangement because staying is all that they require. 

As always, it comes back to, what should be done about it? I think the vast majority of the time, there is some underlying reason for lack of trust. It could be that the refuser has issues separate from the spouse that might or might not be possible to resolve. More rarely, it is directly related to the spouse and some breech of trust in the past. Either way, a cost-benefit analysis must be done. Can this lack of trust be fixed? If so, do both refuser and spouse want to stay together? Are there other issues to be worked out? If not, under what terms will a split occur? 

The reason itself is bullshit. However, the lack of trust is real, at least in the refuser's head, which is where it counts. In a way, I think anyone who has been given this rationale has been given a gift. They know The Reason™. Thus, it makes it somewhat easier to determine how to proceed. In warmways's case, her refuser has already said he is unable (read unwilling) to change. Now, she might choose to press the issue and find out if there is a possibility of teasing out unable vs. unwilling, but let's say it lands on unable and willing, then there is a possible process to fix that. If the process fails to produce desired results, then it's over. If it lands on unable AND unwilling, no matter the reasoning, then it's over. Or if warmways decides that she is not willing to participate in a process to fix things at this point, then it's over. The majority of possibilities end up with, then it's over. I'd venture to say that if a refuser was unable and willing, the spouse wouldn't be here. They would be in therapy working on things or already back to fucking the husband/wife regularly. Unfortunately, if someone is here, then it's over. It's just a matter of calling it. 

Calling it over is not easy, but neither is SM. It's just that the SM is familiar and safe in a way. I think the above applies to anyone who has gotten a similar response during The Talk™. No matter which way it goes, the choices are stay, go, outsource. 

P.S. This arm's length theory is fucked up. It just is. Try not to think in terms of how it SEEMS fucked up because that means you are questioning your own judgement. Run it past a friend. Tell them you know someone who...if necessary to protect yourself and your privacy. But run it past someone. I can almost guarantee you that they will tell you it is fucked up. 

Oh my. This is a huge red flag. I wish I'd paid attention to this years ago. I was reading a book on successful dating and one of the key points is that if someone says you deserve better, I'm not good enough for you, or the like, BELIEVE THEM AND RUN AWAY! 

That is the way fucked up people tell you they are fucked up and have chased away everyone else. Don't be a "fixer" because fixers usually aren't successful. They just take on the responsibility and get crushed in the process of attempting to fix something that is not theirs to fix, nor within their capabilities to fix. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can or should correct someone else's preexisting self-esteem issue. 

I absolutely agree and don't feel like you're picking on me. He never came out and said he was unabl and unwilling, I just know that based on past results. And his avoidance will never ever change. I just had to try everything for years to finally believe it.

I'm working my way very slowly to an exit plan. Tomorrow I get the name of a lawyer from therapist. I am not financially independent and that's main obstacle but I'm very focused on getting employed again even if just temping.

It's hard to call bullshit when I don't know both parties and wasn't present in the room when the conversation took place. But this kind of statement (and the "I don't deserve you" ones too) reeks of manipulation to me. I know there are physical and mental problems here, but if she's not in medical treatment and psychotherapy for them, she doesn't get a pass. "Thinking about them" doesn't mean squat.

Let me try my hand at translating her refuser-speak for you. If you feel it's not true, I apologize for assuming the worst of your wife and hope you get a laugh out of it anyway.




Having had some experience with a partner who has substance abuse issues, I'm of the opinion that marriage/relationship counseling is a waste of time and money if the abusing spouse hasn't addressed her own problems in individual therapy first. Although she might be willing to denigrate herself now to manipulate you, trust me, if she gets in counseling and sees an opportunity to blame you, she won't hesitate. People with major problems are in a fight for survival. Ever try to force a cat to do something it doesn't want to do and watch it go cat on you?

Sorry, I'll turn off the cynicism spigot now. I wish you well, no matter what you decide.

"I am pretty drunk at thios point."
LOL