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Post by adventura on Jul 5, 2016 22:08:30 GMT -5
This forum is a smorgasbord of emotions. Sometimes it makes me cheer, sometimes I worry, sometimes I laugh. But CagedTiger, your posts give me an overwhelming feeling of sadness. I think it's because we all sense how much love and passion you have to offer that your wife simply isn't capable of receiving.
Sometimes I think we morph our sexual passions into caretaking our refusers. The nurturing instinct that fuels lovemaking runs amuck when things are one sided.
The other thing is that "time's not your friend" as the Tom Waits song goes. You don't want deep grief to become normal, and you're close to that.
Have you thought about a trial separation if it's not a legal disadvantage? Anything to get out of your head and into the world again.
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 28, 2016 15:43:32 GMT -5
What are you worried about if you did end up with this friend, even for a brief time? Is that worse than what happens if you do nothing and don't reconnect? Because, like you, I don't want to be the cheating, lying husband. And I'm also still here for a variety of reasons that need time to resolve for a lot of reasons . CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 |
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Post by bballgirl on Sept 28, 2016 16:33:57 GMT -5
Because, like you, I don't want to be the cheating, lying husband. And I'm also still here for a variety of reasons that need time to resolve for a lot of reasons . CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 Hey TL2, Reading this comment brought back memories and emotions for me. I clearly remember your words on EP and I remember the realization that he broke the vows first. Those words inspired me to outsource which eventually helped me to free myself. So I thank you for those words of wisdom. Bballgirl |
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Post by beachguy on Sept 28, 2016 18:37:29 GMT -5
Because, like you, I don't want to be the cheating, lying husband. And I'm also still here for a variety of reasons that need time to resolve for a lot of reasons . CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 ^^^^^ This x1000 |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2016 19:37:03 GMT -5
cagedtiger, I'm sympathetic. On one hand you're starving in your committed relationship, meanwhile there is a buffet within sight. Does this other woman have long-term potential, or just a short hot fire? I.e., do you regret not pursuing her instead of your wife? My last girlfriend kinda set me up with my wife, but her expectation was that I'd come back around to her after maturing a bit (which I needed). In her words, I was supposed to date W, not marry her. What a different world it would be if I'd been clued into that bit of detail earlier. Quite honestly, if we'd reconnected ~15 years ago when there had been a narrow window that we both missed, we'd probably be married now, and probably happy. Our families were very close friends for most of our childhood, and I think most folks at the church we attended growing up assumed we'd end up together. However, fate is a cruel and wicked mistress, and a string of abusive relationships and bad circumstances have left her pretty badly damaged- she's been working through a lot of these things, but even five years later, there's still a lot more to go. We both knew it would be just a fling, or series of flings, but we both enjoyed it, and we're still good friends. She understands why it's so hard for me to be around her now. The great irony, of course, is that I thought my wife was the "safe" choice to make in this regard, and that's been far from the case. As for others I maybe should have ended up with, I could write a very, very long post about the other "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" that are honestly not more than a phone call or email away. Lord this sounds like Forest Gump. He goes off and always does the right thing, and she makes a series of bad decisions, but their lives remain intertwined. I would say this about woulda coulda shoulda, you never know how entering into a long term monogamous deal will affect your relationship. I'm not talking about bait and switch, it doesn't sound like she'd do that. But you say she's badly damaged, and badly damaged people tend to be self destructive, especially when it comes to relationships. I know I'm talking out my arse, it might have been s fairy tale marriage and life together, maybe you'd end up like those old couples holding each other's hand as they reminisce over a happy life together. But there is also a good chance you'd have ended up right here. Cherish the good memories, but the shouldas are also talking out their arse. |
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Post by JMX on Sept 28, 2016 21:45:42 GMT -5
Oh Lort! You have come a long way, friend  . Glad this post got revived! Is it wrong of me to say that funerals bring you together? It reminds me of John Beckwith (Owen Wilson's character) on Wedding Crashers- when he gets depressed because Claire won't speak to him and he goes with Chazz to a funeral crashing where he CLEANS up and then gets a little disgusted with himself for actually going. Sorry for finding it humorous, but, I think as with the moral of the story - we only want to find our "person", our lobster - if you will - and be happy (enough) with them forever. I hope you find that one day |
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:09:05 GMT -5
CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 Hey TL2, Reading this comment brought back memories and emotions for me. I clearly remember your words on EP and I remember the realization that he broke the vows first. Those words inspired me to outsource which eventually helped me to free myself. So I thank you for those words of wisdom. Bballgirl Bballgirl... You're welcome! We're all here to help each other out right? I can't tell you how many months of reading, responding, writing stories, etc. on EP that it took me to connect all of the dots and put that statement together in that way. As Baz always said, a SM f**ks with your head and for so long we, the refused, think and believe we're the guilty party, that we're doing something wrong (all else being equal). No... we all know now that is not the case. We certainly have rights and choices about what we want to do about the situation, but if we decide to outsource it is clearly *in response to* our refuser's unfaithfulness / cheating, which came first. If our spouses were being faithful to the marriage, we would not be outsourcing, separating, divorcing, etc. I'm so glad you have freed yourself! While I am doing better as well due to reasonably regular sex these last few years, and I have chosen to stay in my marriage, my situation is also complicated as I alluded to on EP and there are parts of my life that are still screwed up as a result of the previously-SM and I still have to keep working at to make better. I think you and I both had a 20 year SM going... and there's no doubt it changes you forever when it goes on that long. Meaning, there are things you will never forget... new beliefs and attitudes that become a new part of you as you battle your way out of the SM, etc. For example, I used to believe that marriage is forever... because I was raised in a family that was fairly religious (though not extreme) and no one else really got divorced in the extended family. But now I realize and believe that marriage is a choice... a *daily* choice. There is no forever, and I reserve the right at any time to leave if things get bad enough in the future. Kind of sad in a way... the first view that marriage is forever seems kind of magical as you go into it. Then once you get into it you may realize that you may have more differences than you thought and this relationship is going to take a lot more work than you thought. So yes, being in any kind of relationship, even marriage, is a daily choice. We always have the right to leave it, end it, or change the terms. TL2 |
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Post by timeforliving2 on Sept 29, 2016 0:24:42 GMT -5
CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 ^^^^^ This x1000 BeachGuy - Thanks. As I just mentioned to BBallGirl it took me a long time to connect those dots. Many others on EP helped me to get to that point of realization. Once you do realize this, though, you are very close to being free and/or changing your deal. The balance of power starts to shift. TL2 |
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Post by cagedtiger on Sept 29, 2016 10:27:23 GMT -5
Quite honestly, if we'd reconnected ~15 years ago when there had been a narrow window that we both missed, we'd probably be married now, and probably happy. Our families were very close friends for most of our childhood, and I think most folks at the church we attended growing up assumed we'd end up together. However, fate is a cruel and wicked mistress, and a string of abusive relationships and bad circumstances have left her pretty badly damaged- she's been working through a lot of these things, but even five years later, there's still a lot more to go. We both knew it would be just a fling, or series of flings, but we both enjoyed it, and we're still good friends. She understands why it's so hard for me to be around her now. The great irony, of course, is that I thought my wife was the "safe" choice to make in this regard, and that's been far from the case. As for others I maybe should have ended up with, I could write a very, very long post about the other "shoulda, woulda, coulda's" that are honestly not more than a phone call or email away. Lord this sounds like Forest Gump. He goes off and always does the right thing, and she makes a series of bad decisions, but their lives remain intertwined. I would say this about woulda coulda shoulda, you never know how entering into a long term monogamous deal will affect your relationship. I'm not talking about bait and switch, it doesn't sound like she'd do that. But you say she's badly damaged, and badly damaged people tend to be self destructive, especially when it comes to relationships. I know I'm talking out my arse, it might have been s fairy tale marriage and life together, maybe you'd end up like those old couples holding each other's hand as they reminisce over a happy life together. But there is also a good chance you'd have ended up right here. Cherish the good memories, but the shouldas are also talking out their arse. That "coulda woulda shoulda" won't ever be anything more than maybe a future hookup once for old times sake. Too much potential for pain lies down that path. Besides, there are other "shoulda's" that have much more, safer potential when the time comes. And seeing as I'll working back on campus at one of the universities in the nearish future, I might actually use my powers for good this time...  |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 29, 2016 11:20:40 GMT -5
Besides, there are other "shoulda's" that have much more, safer potential when the time comes. And seeing as I'll working back on campus at one of the universities in the nearish future, I might actually use my powers for good this time... Enjoy the hell out of that, while you're still young enough to just be an "older guy" to the co-eds, and not "old enough to be my dad". ;-) |
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Post by cagedtiger on Sept 29, 2016 12:11:37 GMT -5
Besides, there are other "shoulda's" that have much more, safer potential when the time comes. And seeing as I'll working back on campus at one of the universities in the nearish future, I might actually use my powers for good this time... Enjoy the hell out of that, while you're still young enough to just be an "older guy" to the co-eds, and not "old enough to be my dad". ;-) ...unless they're into that kind of thing...? |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 29, 2016 14:15:15 GMT -5
Enjoy the hell out of that, while you're still young enough to just be an "older guy" to the co-eds, and not "old enough to be my dad". ;-) ...unless they're into that kind of thing...? Tell you what.... dont underestimate the power of being an older man! It's all about the attitude. Dentist on my course today, 75 I kid you not. Massive bloke. 6ft 7. Stocky. Dressed pretty fuckin cool. I swear it must have been the brother of Tom Baker... Old old old Doctor Who. Looked like, sounded the same, same mannerisms. Proper confident gent. Got on like a house on fire with him. He had the twinkle in his eyes and the attitude. I would have |
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Post by cagedtiger on Sept 29, 2016 16:37:08 GMT -5
...unless they're into that kind of thing...? Tell you what.... dont underestimate the power of being an older man! It's all about the attitude. Dentist on my course today, 75 I kid you not. Massive bloke. 6ft 7. Stocky. Dressed pretty fuckin cool. I swear it must have been the brother of Tom Baker... Old old old Doctor Who. Looked like, sounded the same, same mannerisms. Proper confident gent. Got on like a house on fire with him. He had the twinkle in his eyes and the attitude. I would have Sounds like you should have, love. I have no doubt your new friend there would teach you a thing or five. Was he wearing a proper Tom Baker scarf (that was the Dr. Who I grew up with)? And I'll tell you some stories later about what I should have done in college when I went back at age 30- I encountered several young ladies who made it quite clear they were waiting for me to ask. Stupid overdeveloped sense of morals. |
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 29, 2016 20:50:44 GMT -5
CagedTiger, I just saw your post above, and when I saw the "I don't want to be the *cheating* husband" part, I felt I had to respond with some wisdom I would routinely post on EP: "A spouse who refuses sex to the other is being "unfaithful to the marriage". Sex is a realistic expectation and assumption and you pledged to be (sexually) faithful to one person. You did not take a vow of celibacy (or agree to live in a virtually sexless marriage). That's far from the deal. Being unfaithful to the marriage in this manner (refusing) is just as culpable as someone who traditionally "cheats". Your refuser spouse has cheated the opportunity for intimacy out of the marriage. Since your spouse has been unfaithful *FIRST*, it's your choice what you do in response to that unfaithfulness." TL2 ^^^^^ This x1000 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^I'll throw in another X1000! ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
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Post by eternaloptimism on Sept 30, 2016 2:14:42 GMT -5
We need tshirts with this message plastered on them.
Mother fucking refusers and their double standard moral high ground arse fudge! Fucking dick biscuits.
Look how much they make me swear!
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. Glad this post got revived! 
