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Post by blueberry on May 17, 2023 15:43:04 GMT -5
Long time reader and first time poster.
(Virtually) sexless marriage maybe 3-4 times a year for 8 years. Reading the forum posts has been fantastic to help understand I am not the problem. My wife has given lots and lots of excuses which makes me feel inadequate but very few solutions. Too hot, too cold, tired, finds sex boring and I need to make things more varied, etc. etc. etc. Latest one was arm ache.
I know why chasing is futile but we’ve all done it and most probably continue to do it. What I can’t understand is she is a touchy feely type and she touches my gentiles often (not masturbation). On one of those days where I get a lot of touches and kisses and I try and initiate I often get knocked back with one of the lame excuses leaving me feel more frustrated.
We’ve had a number of chats and she knows I am not happy with our sex life but does nothing/suggests nothing to try and improve it.
I am trying to understand what kind of person touches and feels their husband, arguably leading them on, to then say no in bed?
I know it’s been said so many times but the impact of being in a sexless marriage cannot be underestimated. It literally impacts every area of life (for the refused) and although legally in a marriage the refused is made to feel so alone, you think the refuser understands how damaging their behaviour is?
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Post by blunder8 on May 17, 2023 17:10:50 GMT -5
Welcome. This is an unusual and cruel variant of the disease: touching and leading you on . . . and then a cold shower for you.
The frustration and emptiness, we've all been there. Maybe the "why" question you should be asking is why you want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with you. She doesn't value your promise to be exclusive to her. Intimacy is to be rationed out on her terms and her whims.
Her refusals must come with a consequence. She has to see and experience that her behavior is damaging you and slowly killing the marriage.
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Post by baza on May 17, 2023 21:13:15 GMT -5
Brother blueberryWhether your marriage is 'made in heaven' or an 'ILIASM shithole' it is going to end. Death or divorce ends them all, so as a matter of prudence any married person needs to have some sort of a plan for a circumctance where they are not married any longer. The need is more acute when the marriage is like the ones seen in this group. It is not a bad idea to consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish - theoretically - how a divorce would shake out for you. This commits you to precisely nothing ... it is just you gathering the appropriate information, information that any married person needs to know. That's all I'd suggest at the moment. To sort your situation out, you need some solid facts so you can make fully informed choices going forward. Consulting a lawyer would be a good start to that process. Best wishes to you as you work your way through the ILIASM maze. |
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on May 18, 2023 10:47:23 GMT -5
blueberry. Unless you enjoy the trickle intimacy she seemingly provides, my suggestion is for you to exercise your agency and let her know to keep her hands to herself unless she intends to follow through. Re: Why Chasing My thought here is that despite the futility, why chasing is part of the journey. My hard earned advice is to spend the absolute minimal amount of time possible in this part of the journey. Trust me on this one.
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Post by blueberry on May 18, 2023 16:15:27 GMT -5
Thank you all for the solidarity.
It’s not just why searching but it’s trying to understand how your wife or husband can deny you intimacy but still engage in all other aspects of life normally.
Periodically, when the gaps between intimacy are large I find myself thinking about sex and getting an erection very easily. My wife will question why I have an erection seemingly oblivious to the situation she is creating.
We’ve had ‘the talk’ many times and things are promised but very little improves. Deep down I think we all know the truth but it’s so hard to comprehend and come to terms with. Our refusers don’t love us in the same way we do. If I had married someone who I was not physically attracted to I would still ensure their needs were met especially if they had expressed how upset they were with me. I can’t comprehend why you’d treat your life partner like refusers do, it’s beyond me.
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Post by baza on May 18, 2023 21:51:05 GMT -5
There comes a time when your attention needs to come off your spouse and your past - and shift over to you and your future. Maybe that time has arrived for you Brother blueberry .... or maybe not, yet. Like TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo says, 'why chasing'is part of the journey but it's best to keep your time in that useless pursuit to a minimum ... (this from me, probably the "best" why chaser in the southern hemisphere back in the day of my ILIASM deal). |
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Post by tesseract on May 22, 2023 9:00:16 GMT -5
Thank you all for the solidarity. It’s not just why searching but it’s trying to understand how your wife or husband can deny you intimacy but still engage in all other aspects of life normally. Periodically, when the gaps between intimacy are large I find myself thinking about sex and getting an erection very easily. My wife will question why I have an erection seemingly oblivious to the situation she is creating. We’ve had ‘the talk’ many times and things are promised but very little improves. Deep down I think we all know the truth but it’s so hard to comprehend and come to terms with. Our refusers don’t love us in the same way we do. If I had married someone who I was not physically attracted to I would still ensure their needs were met especially if they had expressed how upset they were with me. I can’t comprehend why you’d treat your life partner like refusers do, it’s beyond me. Have you read "The Dead Bedroom Fix" by Dad Starting Over or listened to many of the Dr. Psych Mom podcasts? I have found the DSO stuff the most useful in correcting some of my own behaviors. That book and the anecdotes on this board generally show that having "the talk" is counterproductive anyways, as women seemed to be turned off by "emotional vomiting" your needs at them. They just perceive you as more needy and are less attracted to you. Thats why many seem receptive during the talk and will cry and wring their hands, but then nothing changes. You can't logic your way out of a hind-brain problem. I think the best course of action is to focus on your own growth. Get in shape, dress well, have a mission, and build a mindset of abundance. Women can detect neediness and its a giant wet blanket thrown on their sex drive. And if she tries to grab you sexually, just casually and without an emotional reaction move her hand away. If she gets confused and asks, just tell her matter of factly that don't have an interest in being teased anymore. Your wife will not change as she has no impetus to do so. You can't make her change, you can't rationalize her into change. You need to lead by example and she will either change to keep you in the marriage or you will mentally reach a place that you know you can do better and the marriage will end. Either way, you will be out of an untenable situation. I am still on my own journey too, so I wish you luck. |
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Post by mirrororchid on May 22, 2023 19:57:21 GMT -5
...What I can’t understand is she is a touchy feely type and she touches my genitals often (not masturbation). On one of those days where I get a lot of touches and kisses and I try and initiate, I often get knocked back with one of the lame excuses leaving me feel more frustrated. ...I am trying to understand what kind of person touches and feels their husband, arguably leading them on, to then say no in bed? ... We’ve had ‘the talk’ many times and things are promised but very little improves... How long has this "teasing": been going on? Was it previously part of an erotic buildup to actual sex? Or is this something recently introduced as the sexual frequency dropped? Yours is the first case I've heard of this. Erotic touching, then refusal. In the event she's trying to stoke you into frustrated outrage to force a divorce, I'd have to admit, it's a good plan. Perhaps she's trying to drive you to an affair, so she can divorce you and be the "good guy"? There's lots of those types of chickens in SMs. While the refusal to be teased is a reasonable tactic, I'd also be curious whether you could stifle any reaction, look her in the eye, perhaps smile slightly, with indifference, and ask, "What did you want the result of this to be? I'm to proposition you for zesty bed romping, but you inevitably say 'no'?. Perhaps I'm to thank you for the compliment? Is that the entirety of this interaction? To which I shall goose your cushy derriere in kind, growl lustily, and we shall be on our way, confident sexy creatures that we are. Whatever you're looking for, I'll see if I can't provide, if you'll only explain."
You make me smirk when you say you've had "The Talk" multiple times. Nononononono. It's a single TALK. Not Talks. Did your talk look anything like one assembled from the Build Your Own Talk template? The Talk has consequences, spoken or kept to yourself. But it's an if-then situation. When you're ready for The Talk (singular, final), it's wise to have done your assignment from Baza and be prepared for divorce if she doesn't react the way we all would like. |
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Post by blueberry on May 23, 2023 10:32:01 GMT -5
Thanks for the replies everyone.
Like most couples the frequency is higher earlier on so more touching probably did lead to intimacy but that sort of touching has never directly led to sex per se.
Culturally, divorce is not something that occurs frequently so I am trying very hard to try and improve the situation. Of course, the odds are stacked heavily against me
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on May 23, 2023 13:01:41 GMT -5
Only you know your situation best. Do keep in mind your emotional and mental well being. I hope you find some guidance and perspective here that helps you on your journey. Thanks for the replies everyone. Like most couples the frequency is higher earlier on so more touching probably did lead to intimacy but that sort of touching has never directly led to sex per se. Culturally, divorce is not something that occurs frequently so I am trying very hard to try and improve the situation. Of course, the odds are stacked heavily against me |
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Post by angeleyes65 on May 28, 2023 8:06:29 GMT -5
I think it is because they want to feel desirable and get that attention even if they don't want to seal the deal.
My ex did not touch in a sexual way. But he wanted to hold hands and snuggle in bed. At first I thought it was better that nothing. After awhile I just resented it and refused any touch.
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Post by mirrororchid on May 29, 2023 10:52:31 GMT -5
Divorce doesn't happen frequently? If peer pressure is what stops you, maybe move to the US! psychcentral.com/health/the-myth-of-the-high-rate-of-divorce#divorce-statistics"data from 2011-2015 suggests that about 22% of first marriages end within the first five years due to divorce, separation, or death."
22% within five years, I wouldn't describe as "rare" The rate is on the decline: "According to the Pew Research Center, among adults ages 25 to 39, the divorce rate dropped from 30 per 1,000 married individuals in 1990 to 24 in 2015.This decline is credited at least in part to younger generations being more selective and waiting longer to get married."
I would add that routine pre-marital sex for the younger generations has meant marrying for more lasting reasons, as well as refusers not making it to the altar as easily as they did in generations past, when chastity was seen as a prize, rather than odd. Lord knows every single sex-negative person should stay away from vows, unless they agree in advance that regular sex is in no way implied by their "I do.". All the same, you don't want divorce. Got it. Would you consider outsourcing? Either in secret ("cheating"), or opening your marriage? Is your wife requiring celibacy from you in order to keep your marriage intact? Does that strike you as fair/reasonable/appropriate/tenable/possible? In almost all cases of sexless spouses, two good plans of action have been to begin lives that do not include their spouses much. Exercise routines, clubs to join, hobbies to pursue, civic activism to engage in, volunteering, higher education, catch up with old friends, forge some new ones at work, or at a one of teh clubs you join, job training, get a poker game together, etc. Live as if you are single, to match your sexual state The other course of action is to prepare for divorce. Consult with a divorce attorney to determine your likely financial outcome, locate suitable places to live were you to move out, plan a way to live in your home largely apart if you can live platonically with your ex (crazy as that sounds). Plan for "bird-nesting" perhaps, if you have kids at home still. You don't need to divorce in order to be ready for it if you change your mind. If you are mentally and socially prepared, you will have the strength to leave if it becomes clear that you must, though it's nothing I hope for you. Opening your marriage could mean your wife dating, but not sleeping with you. In teh event that you're handicapped by your wedding ring, that could mean leaving your wife (at least on paper at the state courthouse) in order to be eligible for a large swath of the ladies stuck in the 20th century and before and requiring 100% of you. |
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on May 31, 2023 11:34:56 GMT -5
Quite the soundbite from tesseract"women seemed to be turned off by "emotional vomiting" your needs at them. They just perceive you as more needy and are less attracted to you" I have found this to be true in not only my marriage but also in my bachelor days. This opinion may be worthy of its own discussion thread. Would interesting to hear from the ladies on this one. |
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Post by petrushka on May 31, 2023 16:11:59 GMT -5
Quite the soundbite from tesseract "women seemed to be turned off by "emotional vomiting" your needs at them. They just perceive you as more needy and are less attracted to you" I have found this to be true in not only my marriage but also in my bachelor days. This opinion may be worthy of its own discussion thread. Would interesting to hear from the ladies on this one.
I suggest you offset this against the perceived practices that men clam up about their pain, needs, and wants, whereas women just want to talk talk talk about the problems in their lives.
Or, to put a different angle on it: yes, clearly, *refusers* don't like to be confronted with the emotional mess they are causing, don't want to hear about it never mind do anything to rectify their behaviour or the situation in general. They'd much rather stick their head in the sand. So, yes, they would react negatively ... obviously.
Here's another angle: in my 20s, when I was looking for a relationship, women were 'rare on the ground'. When I was in a relationship and happy with it, they'd be all over me. Clearly there is a function there that a happy guy is more attractive. I don't think that works reciprocatively.
In any event, the refuser in your life doesn't really want to hear about it, because it gives them the heebiee jeebies. You're pointing out how they are failing, and how they are doing a shit job at being a partner. Heh. Surprise. Vomiting has relatively little to do with it. In most cases.
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Post by greatcoastal on May 31, 2023 18:43:42 GMT -5
Quite the soundbite from tesseract "women seemed to be turned off by "emotional vomiting" your needs at them. They just perceive you as more needy and are less attracted to you" I have found this to be true in not only my marriage but also in my bachelor days. This opinion may be worthy of its own discussion thread. Would interesting to hear from the ladies on this one.
Vulnerability Is Another Word For Confidence, And Women Love It Samantha Rodman Whiten — July 28, 20211 Most men believe that women want James Bond: an effortlessly cool, calm and collected man whose confidence is surpassed only by his love of danger. Women want no such thing. First, most women aren’t really into danger, because evolutionarily they don’t want the potential father of their children to die in an extreme sports accident. But they also don’t want the kind of confidence that comes at the expense of emotional honesty. Confidence without emotional openness is really just arrogance, and women hate arrogance.
Confidence doesn’t mean never showing fear, sadness, or anxiety. A confident man can certainly say, “I am doubting my ability to do X” or “I’m anxious about my presentation tomorrow.” Confidence doesn’t mean narcissism, or thinking you’re great at everything when you’re not. It doesn’t mean acting superior, arrogant, and like this guy, “Mr. Perfect.” True confidence is feeling that you are a person worthy of basic respect and you’re a pretty okay person, and therefore you deserve to be able to say whatever you are thinking or feeling. This is why vulnerability, and expressing your emotions genuinely in real time, is the ultimate level of confidence.
Men who try to act calm when they actually feel scared or confident when they feel insecure are not being honest and real. They downplay normal human emotions that would make their wives empathize with them and want to comfort them, because they think women despise weakness. This is not true at all, but it is tough to unlearn. From a young age, boys learn from sports and other male socialization activities to act brave and tough at all costs.
This can be helpful at work, especially in high-pressure environments, but acting too tough with your female partner actually makes her feel disconnected from you.You may want to try being more honest and vulnerable with your wife, but you wonder how to do this without seeming weak. In reality, expressing your feelings openly is the opposite of weak. Think about it. Who is the weak one, a guy who can tell a hot girl at the bar, “You’re beautiful and I want to get your number” (if this is what he is really thinking at that moment) or the guy who talks to this girl for 45 minutes about some topic he could care less about even though he is thinking the same thing as the first guy? The first guy is literally saying what he feels without caring whether the woman rejects him or not. The second guy is pretending to care about something he doesn’t care about because he is trying to impress a woman by being “cool.” By the way, if you are a man who thinks the first guy sounds like a chauvinistic jerk, that is probably because you yourself would be scared to say this sentence for fear of rejection. Additionally, many men who think direct expressions of interest in a woman are weird or gross have deep insecurity issues and have been raised to view women as overly fragile madonnas who hate expressions of romantic or sexual interest. Some of them have been burned by women being repulsed by compliments or expressions of interest. But, as a woman for the past four decades and a therapist for more than the last one , I can assure you that women who dislike compliments or direct expressions of interest are either struggling with their own issues about men/sex/self-love OR they are just not that interested in the particular person who expressed that interest.If you are someone who struggles with being open and vulnerable with your thoughts and feelings, try to start small. Be open about some small thing at work that upset you or worried you. Tell your wife that you love her without it being at the end of a phone call. Express some sexual desire in bed that you have never shared. When you are authentic and unapologetic about your thoughts and feelings, this is true confidence.
Keep in mind that if everything you’re thinking of saying openly is negative, this is not what is intended and could certainly make your wife upset and less attracted to you.
Being vulnerable is not just telling your wife, “It made me upset when you didn’t want me to golf this weekend.” Sure, if you say all the positive things you’re feeling then that one is fine. But a common mistake people make is equating vulnerability with negativity. Try some positive or even neutral expressions of your inner world before you start saying what you DON’T like. (Just picture how you would feel if your wife decided “being authentic” meant criticizing you MORE.)
Try to express yourself more openly and directly. Be vulnerable and real by expressing more of your emotions, motivations, intentions, hopes, and dreams. That is ultimate confidence, and, as a bonus, will likely be much more appealing to your wife. And till we meet again, I remain, The Blogapist Who Says, Also Read This About Why Not To Care So Much About What Your Wife Thinks. |
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