fd1
New Member
Posts: 1
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Post by fd1 on Mar 26, 2023 3:54:06 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated.
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Post by csl on Mar 26, 2023 7:20:49 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. So she sees it as a first step to separation? Good. Maybe she will be motivated to do some heavy lifting to prevent it. Tell her she's right, and move to the second bed. Ball's in her court, then.
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Post by shamwow on Mar 26, 2023 9:52:20 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. I guess the first question are what are your thoughts on staying / leaving. If you are committed to staying no matter what, then you are at the mercy of your wife in this matter. If you are open to leaving then you have a bit more "leverage" here. Move into separate rooms if you'd like and put the ball into her court. The good part is that she recognized that separate rooms is a big deal...a shot across the bow, so to say. However, you should be asking yourself what the next step is in the (unfortunately likely) event that nothing changes. Your options remain the same as everyone else's... Stay, leave, or cheat. None of these options should be entered into lightly.
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Post by baza on Mar 26, 2023 18:47:55 GMT -5
In these ILIASM situations a big problem is the lack of alternative you have. But what you can do is construct yourself an alternative. You do this by consulting a lawyer in your jurisdiction to find out - theoretically - how a divorce would shake out for you. Within those parameters you put together - theoretically - an exit strategy addressing things like where you'd live and suchlike. You attend to your network of friends as they will be - theoretically - a great source of support for you through what would theoretically be one of the most difficult processes you might undertake. You would also research eveything you can about shepherding any minor children through such a - theoretical - chain of events. It's hard work with very little immediate gratification. But, if you do the work, you will have created a theoretical alternative to staying in your ILIASM situation. Whether you'd actually action your alternative plan is another matter, but you sure as shit will not be exercising such a plan if you ain't got such a plan. You need such a plan - any married person needs an alternative plan because ALL marriages end, death/divorce see to that fact. Good luck Brother fd1 . You have a hard road ahead of you, whichever way you end up choosing. My "tip" on having the discussion is this - don't have the discussion. At least until you have created your alternative because then you'd be discussing the matter from a stronger position.
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Post by h on Mar 27, 2023 6:08:57 GMT -5
I would move to the other bedroom if you are open to leaving eventually. It sends a clear message that the sexlessness is a serious issue and endangering the marriage but it's not so radical that it can't be taken back. It's good that she recognizes how serious it is. Do not under any circumstances say you are heading for divorce yet unless you are ready to follow through on it. Don't say anything you can't back up with actions or you lose your credibility.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 27, 2023 9:54:51 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. "The first step to separation"With very little to go on, you have discovered an extremely important piece of information. Nothing you have discussed so far, nor your six month celibacy, any effort you have made, has made her think that this marriage is in trouble. None of your concerns have represented a serious concern at all. The only thing that's presented a concern is moving out of the bed in which she shows you every night that you are not a person she wants to have sex with. And, it's a suggestion for some day in the future - so presumably, that day is not this day. So, there might one day be a concern for your relationship - and you will cause it when you leave the bed. This is a common thing, btw. Mrs Apocrypha sometimes saw calamity and was willing to have empathy, sympathy, or simply made an effort when I regularly left the bedroom. It wasn't a place for sex, for sleep, for intimacy anymore. It was a place where I was reminded of feeling unwanted as I went to sleep. The first step to separation, though, occurred a long, long time ago. It was whatever happened that changed what she thought about you, or the marriage to the extent that she'd rather be celibate than sleep with her husband for basically - the rest of her life. What I see in a celibate marriage is a facade - a fantasy of what a marriage is. A shared lie. The thing she's objecting to is the true representation of what the two of you have. It's a decision on your part to stop actively portraying a lie, and that's inherently destabilizing to your present celibate dynamic (and hopefully preferrable to finding out about an affair). She's objecting to the truth of your relationship: roommates.
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Post by blunder8 on Mar 27, 2023 10:34:02 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. People don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat. Denying you sex without consequences is permission to continue the same path. Obviously you have to think ahead to what you truly want and play out those scenarios. But she probably ain't changing unless she sees a reason to. Do what you have to. For me and others, the action was to take away the wife title and make her your roommate. If she's going to treat you like a roommate, let her have the same treatment. Move to the other bed, avoid any expressions of affection, have just enough conversation as is necessary. Let her see what being a roommate really means. It could lead to a conversation....or it could lead to a breakup.
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Post by heelots on Mar 27, 2023 13:00:00 GMT -5
Married just over 20 years and our sex life has been on the downward spiral for 15. We’ve now reached the lowest point in our sex life - twice in that last six months. Have tried talking to her about it, but it’s now very clear that nothing is going to change, I suggested we move to separate beds but it was very clear she sees this as the first step to separating and was very much against it. I’m probably going to have this talk again as the marital bed really isn’t a marital bed any more, so any tips on having this discussion would be appreciated. People don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat. Denying you sex without consequences is permission to continue the same path. Obviously you have to think ahead to what you truly want and play out those scenarios. But she probably ain't changing unless she sees a reason to. Do what you have to. For me and others, the action was to take away the wife title and make her your roommate. If she's going to treat you like a roommate, let her have the same treatment. Move to the other bed, avoid any expressions of affection, have just enough conversation as is necessary. Let her see what being a roommate really means. It could lead to a conversation....or it could lead to a breakup. Nailed it! Thanks for saving me the effort of typing that out. 🙂
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 28, 2023 5:51:29 GMT -5
Baza's suggestion of preparing your life for divorce first is sound. If you did move out of the bedroom, and she surprised you with divorce, you'd want to be ready. Such preparation allows you to escalate beyond separate bedrooms if you chose.
One such escalation not yet mentioned is outsourcing. If your refuser is otherwise a good roommate, perhaps keeping her around is acceptable. This may be especially compelling if you co-parent. (no kids were mentioned, this may not be a factor)
You can outsource secretly. (an "affair") You can inform her you will be seeking outside intimate companionship (informed outsourcing). Or, if you find the leprecorn (a rare leprechaun/unicorn hybrid), perhaps she'll agree to your outsourcing, either tacitly (Don't Ask, Don't Tell) or casually (Open Marriage).
Outsourcing of any kind can readily produce divorce, thus the high recommendation to be prepared for it before you begin risky steps. Also important is whether even consensual outsourcing could be used against you in divorce court. This varies by state and a divorce lawyer's consultation could be very valuable, if you go this route.
Some ILIASM members find in themselves an innate need to live with their lovers exclusively, and outsourcing is inadequate. If you can figure out if this is your tendency, that helps too.
EDIT: I forgot to mention... Once I started preparing for opening my marriage, the heavy weight of a sexless marriage was relieved to a large degree. When we recommend preparing for a life outside of your coupledom, intimate or otherwise, it may sound like intimidating, dreadful work. I, and seem to recall others here at ILIASM, find this "work" invigorating. Taking your fate into your own hands and preparing to stop being dependent on so much that is out of your control is not drudgery, it is salvation. As you get up off the mat, you may start to recognize part of the "old you" that you'd forgotten was there.
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Post by blunder8 on Mar 29, 2023 7:55:33 GMT -5
Apocrypha: "It wasn't a place for sex, for sleep, for intimacy anymore. It was a place where I was reminded of feeling unwanted as I went to sleep."
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ This sentence is a very tidy summary of my SM experience.
The one place that should be a refuge from the world, a place of comfort, became a place of nightly torment.
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Post by flyingsolo on Mar 29, 2023 8:47:18 GMT -5
Baza's advice it right on point. Have your plan ready and know your options and be ready to put that plan in place if you need to. Work on yourself in the meantime and be the best person that you can be, not for anyone else but for yourself. Reconnect with your friends and family. Be in a good place mentally, physically and emotionally. That way, if you have to put your plan in action, you are more than comfortable doing so and more than comfortable with yourself being in that position. Just having a plan doesn't mean you ever have to use it, but it's there if and when you need it.
I was in a similar boat as you - married 20 plus years, sexless marriage for five plus years (and by sexless I mean not one time in five years). I tried everything, including marital counseling for years. Once we went to separate beds, we never went back and we were never intimate again. I stayed for maybe two years in that scenario, almost exclusively because of my kids, but I had a plan all laid out in the event we couldn't reconcile and I was no longer willing to be in that position. When she quit counseling and I realized I was the only one still trying to save the marriage and any sort of intimacy, I pulled the plug and put my plan in action. I engaged my attorney, filed divorce paperwork, rented an apartment that I had identified in advance and once I had a custody agreement in place (and only then!), I moved out and began moving on with my life. I think it shocked her, but I was done dealing with someone who didn't want to be in a relationship that involved communication and intimacy.
Now, I'm two years removed from my sexless marriage. I'm in a long distance relationship with the woman I dated for about three years before I married my ex-wife. It's be a lot of fun to reconnect with someone I hadn't talked to in 25 plus years. She lives in a great city and is an amazing woman. We are perfect for each other and she is everything my ex-wife wasn't. You will be amazed when you find someone who values a physical, emotional and intimate connection as much as you do. We both had long-term marriages that didn't work out, we both see why, and we both vowed that we won't let that happen again. The communication is amazing, the intimacy is fun and spontaneous and not always about the sex - but that's wonderful too. It's absolutely refreshing and while a long distance relationship is work, we both agree that it's well worth it.
My ex, on the other hand is angry, bitter, manipulative and will likely spend the rest of her life blaming me for the end of our marriage. She hasn't been honest with my kids or her friends or relatives or likely even herself at this point. I've made my peace with that and you should be ready for that type of behavior. Sadly 20 plus years of marriage and she can't act like an adult and communicate, but she couldn't during our marriage either and I see that clearly now. We aren't going to be friends. She refuses to co-parent or communicate about our children. She won't even call her attorney back. It has certainly created some difficulty with my children and I try to keep them from being in the middle, however she has chosen to use them as weapons. Sad, but true.
However, given all of that and the past two years of crap dealing with my ex, I would still do it all over again and file for divorce as I am so much happier now. I lived each day in constant stress over my sexless marriage, walking on eggshells in my own home, feeling constantly alone in my struggle. That's all a distant memory now and things are so much more calm, peaceful and happy in my life. My final thought for you is that once either one of you is done fighting for your marriage, it's over and you are just prolonging the agony. A partner withholding intimacy and sex in what is supposed to be a loving, caring marriage is being emotionally abusive and is wielding this power as a weapon. My ex was over the top and I see that now and no one deserves to be put in this position. It's certainly a dark tunnel to have to walk through in order to find the light again, but sometimes divorce is the way to be happy again. It certainly was for me. If I can help in any way, please let me know.
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Post by ironhamster on Apr 1, 2023 22:57:17 GMT -5
So, separate sleeping arrangements are the first step to separation.
She's comfortable with how things are. Her choice is the status quo with the belief you won't change that. That means it's your move. Confirm her beliefs or disprove them.
We all have to live with the consequences of our choices, and we cannot escape that. Even if we choose not to decide we still live with the repercussions of that choice.
So, get your junk in order because either you are going to have a rekindled relationship, or, you are not. At least have a consultation with a divorce attorney to see where you stand. Most will give you half an hour before the meter starts running.
One possible outcome is, "hysterical bonding sex." Crazy name but it is searchable. The refuser realizes they need to get their act together, and will suddenly have an amazing sex drive and may even enjoy the sexual experience, but, it all dissipates as soon as the threat is gone. In my experience, it tapers off within three weeks.
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Post by flyingsolo on Apr 2, 2023 11:12:56 GMT -5
Ah yes, the hysterical bonding sex. When my marriage was on the rocks the first time and my now ex realized our marriage was just about over and I was done, this happened to me and for about a month the sex was great - adventurous, uninhibited, fun, she was willing to try anything and everything and I really thought we were bonding and enjoying being with each other. I thought for sure we were on the road back and this is what our marriage was going to be going forward. Exactly as ironhamster posted, it died off after about a month when she felt the threat of losing the marriage was over. At that time I stayed, but things never really got better. In fact they started a slow, gradual decline that lasted years and we ultimately ended up in a completely sexless marriage for the last five years of it and in separate beds for the last two. Looking back now that "great sex month" was almost 20 years ago and that's as good as my sex life ever got with her. One month of what I felt a true loving, caring marriage should feel like in the bedroom in twenty plus years of marriage. It took me seventeen more years to decide to leave, but better late than never.
The kicker on the whole thing was as we went through trying to fix our marriage at the end and I mentioned that good sex the last time our marriage was in trouble and her unwillingness to engage in any intimacy this time in an effort to save our marriage, she threw all that in my face. Apparently the month of great sex was just for my benefit and she "wasn't going to do that again". Whelp, needless to say, it probably would have gotten me to stay and keep trying to work things out as I'm a physical touch kind of guy and that's how I feel connected and loved by my partner. Her lack of wanting to make that effort told me it was done.
There's a happy ending to the story though. I met an amazing woman shortly after my marriage ended (and you will too). We have great sex all the time when we are together, there's no drama, and my relationship with her is wonderful. It's exactly how I felt an intimate relationship SHOULD be but never had with my ex. Life has a funny way of working out sometimes.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 3, 2023 10:29:39 GMT -5
She's comfortable with how things are. Her choice is the status quo with the belief you won't change that. That means it's your move. Confirm her beliefs or disprove them. [...] One possible outcome is, "hysterical bonding sex." Crazy name but it is searchable. The refuser realizes they need to get their act together, and will suddenly have an amazing sex drive and may even enjoy the sexual experience, but, it all dissipates as soon as the threat is gone. In my experience, it tapers off within three weeks. Some observations, inspired by these two comments: 1. No, there is no evidence that she is comfortable with how things are. Never make that mistake. There is evidence that she is CHOOSING to not have sex with her husband, but there isn't evidence of the mindset or intention. Given that most refusers in celibate marriages seem to go on to subsequent relationships in which sex is present, the issue isn't one of comfort, but rather convenience or some other reason. As such, they are both are choosing to continue the married status and association, identifying and presenting as "married" even though they do not have sex. The OP clearly has reason to stay with it, and likely the refusing spouse does as well. It doesn't mean she likes it, it simply means she's likely choosing it over the present alternative, divorce and/or an affair. (in my case and several others, after a long celibacy, there was an affair). 2. Hysterical bonding sex is unlikely in this situation. It happens after something TRULY traumatic, life changing and possibly PTSD inducing happens, like an affair discovery. What's more likely in this case is "reset sex". Just enough to kite the spouse back into the bed. But yes, a distinction without a difference. Both taper off quickly.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 4, 2023 6:14:47 GMT -5
... I met an amazing woman shortly after my marriage ended (and you will too). We have great sex all the time when we are together, there's no drama, and my relationship with her is wonderful. It's exactly how I felt an intimate relationship SHOULD be but never had with my ex. .... Awesome. Now the tough part. Don't marry her. Kidding! So. Not. Kidding.
Ironhamster and you experienced the reset as a frenetic romp which had me real curious. Mrs. MirrorOrchid reset with me over three years ago, but...let me check the calendar I still keep.... She started engaging in the bedroom twice a month, where we'd previously been once a season. An enormous increase. We've faded to every three weeks, a 50% drop two years later. Currently, we are still seeming to hold steady at this relatively lively pace. blunder8 , did you get a wild sexfest at first? I'm wondering whether remission is more common after an uptick, rather than an explosion. Hopefully, your reset is still holding on. Is sex like dieting? Fad diets you wildly embrace for a few months wear off because the food restriction is so severe, you slide back to your old diet and gain it all back. Or you make limited tweaks, cutting out bread and soda pop and the weight slips away painfully slowly, but gives you lasting results. Second question, blunder8 , was your wife seeing a therapist before the reset like mine was?
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