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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 20, 2023 17:34:21 GMT -5
I won't get fully into all the details. I'm that kind of person who analyzes everything and for good or bad I'm fairly confident I understand my situation and how it "could" be fixed, I'm just unable to do it. I could write an entire thesis or novella (whichever is more accurate) on the events that have led up to my situation but I will try to summarize the current situation without unloading everything.
We started having problems about 15 years ago (married 17 years currently) that's when we started trying to have children. She went full wannabe mom mode. counting days, ovulation tests, the works. I was disappointed in that attitude but I dealt with it, I knew it was temporary. Our oldest son is now 13, it took some time to get pregnant so two years of sex as a job took it's toll but I survived. After he was born she was paranoid about sex and getting pregnant too soon. Even with condoms she was paranoid so it didn't happen often. A little over a year later she started talking about wanting to try again, I said ok, but lets not go overboard and just let it happen if it does. She went right back to wannabe mom mode again. That was the start of our downfall. Her first pregnancy had been difficult, gestational diabetes, premature labor, weekly trips to the OB for monitoring. I couldn't believe that she was going right back to a rigid schedule of "I'm ovulating! Let's go!" We only had sex when she was ovulating. It's worth noting also that from the time we started "trying" to get pregnant the first time, those were the only times she initiated sex, and that was her way of doing it too. "I'm ovulating." Soon she was pregnant again and after the difficulties of the previous pregnancy and 3-4 years of sex being a job, I stopped asking for sex. I waited for her to initiate or at least say something. She never did, but she certainly threw it back at me later. Our youngest is now 11.
Since then there's a cycle we go through every year or two. We have sex for a while, (best run was during covid where it was 1-2 times a week until she went back to work) Then I'll start getting the cliche excuses. Tired, headache, I have to work early (btw at that time I got up for work at 2:30AM and she got up at 6 to take the kids to school, just saying) Followed shortly thereafter by "It's too hot in here, get on your side of the bed." and "You nearly pushed me off the bed last night." Now I'm not trying to sound hurtful or insensitive, but my wife is not small. I don't doubt that I "could" push her off the bed if I tried, but I seriously doubt that I have the mental thought in my sleep of how to accomplish it. So that tells me that I'm trying to cuddle in my sleep and she's trying to get away. So I eventually shut down, I stop trying. I sleep on my own side of the bed, hanging off my side trying to put as much space between us as I can in the hopes I don't have to hear about me pushing her off the bed in the morning.
This goes on for a while. Once it was 2 full years, until something happens. Either I get depressed enough to talk to someone about it and they build me up enough to try again, or she catches me in a situation that forces the issue. I think the time we had gone two years I had accepted my fate and bought a torso masturbator. I kept it in the basement because she never goes down there but there was a storm and she terrified of being caught in a tornado so she drug the 4 of us down there and looked under the towel that was covering it. She told me she saw it as just like having an affair. Acts the same way about masturbation only. Anyway, whether she finds something and gets mad or I bring it up, an argument follows. We have sex a few times, and then the cycle starts all over again. Currently the "score" so-to-speak, is that we had sex two times last year (2022) the last time in February. In April of last year we had our marriage blessed (she's Catholic, that's a separate but connected story) I had half thought that maybe the stress of me changing jobs and her planning the blessing was what was keeping things from happening at the time. I thought maybe this time she'd want to consummate the marriage since when we first got married we were both sick with the stomach flu and couldn't. That didn't happen, and still hasn't.
Like I said, I've analyzed the whole thing and know that the biggest problem I have is my own history coupled with the fact that even when she is willing, she won't let me know. She knew before we got married that I have problems expressing myself and that because of what happened to me at the end of high school I have absolutely no self esteem. After being turned away for a while and no plan to make it up at anytime, I shut down again.
This still ended up longer than I intended but there's so much more that contributes to the situation. Perhaps one day I'll write up the rest of it that likely goes clear back to when I was in grade school. For now though, that's my shortened version of current events.
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 20, 2023 21:52:13 GMT -5
Welcome, Clarkjobe! It's painful to qualify for this site, but there's a lot of good information here. You are lucky because I found this after 34 years of marriage, 2 weeks after our divorce after 8 straight years of complete sexlessness (There were other full years before). At least you have the opportunity to learn from others' experiences. I had to figure out everything for myself while feeling I was the only person in a sexless marriage.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 21, 2023 6:37:38 GMT -5
...she catches me in a situation that forces the issue. ...She told me she saw it as just like having an affair. Acts the same way about masturbation only. ...In April of last year we had our marriage blessed (she's Catholic, that's a separate but connected story) ... the biggest problem I have is my own history ... even when she is willing, she won't let me know. She knew before we got married that I have problems expressing myself and that because of what happened to me at the end of high school I have absolutely no self esteem. After being turned away for a while and no plan to make it up at anytime, I shut down again. This still ended up longer than I intended but there's so much more that contributes to the situation. Perhaps one day I'll write up the rest of it that likely goes clear back to when I was in grade school. For now though, that's my shortened version of current events. Welcome to ILIASM. Sorry, you're here. Looking forward to part 2. You may have some material to work with here. How do you know she was in the mood, even though she said nothing? Told you after the fact when it was too late? (Tired/headache again. The ship has sailed.) The no self-esteem thing could be a critical problem. It may be a superb starting point. I'm a guy that rolls his eyes at machismo, but even so check out the "Dad Starting Over" podcast to see if you're accidentally sending your wife unsexy signals that maybe you want to learn to suppress. It's sophomoric bullshit that shouldn't be necessary, but arguably useful, a little too often. The April blessing has me a bit stunned. Why did that happen? I'd normally have something dismissive to say about your wife's disapproval of masturbation, but I'm getting vibes that your wife may be capable of sexuality and her judgement may work to your advantage. Does she mean what she says? Does she want to stop your endless string of "affairs"? That's great! So do you! Embracing instead blissful joining into one flesh within your freshly blessed marriage.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Mar 21, 2023 21:26:43 GMT -5
Welcome, hope you find solace and friendship here. Looking forward to hearing the rest.
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 21, 2023 22:39:53 GMT -5
Well this won't be the rest, maybe a footnote.
So first off, in response to the questions posed.
How did I know she was in the mood? Never actually do know until it's argument time and that is one of the things she (as I mentioned) throws back at me. I get rejected to the point I've stopped trying, then when we argue about it (which is actually mostly her feeling or acting hurt) and lecturing etc etc. I feel like I should give a little back story on this one to make it more clear. Very early in our problems I tried to make sure I didn't "get frisky" at times that I knew would be off limits. That meant that I had to try to keep track of her cycle (ie avoid potential ovulation days) avoid nights that she had to go to work before noon the next day, There was a couple other absolute "No's" but that was like 10+ years ago so I've forgotten now. The point is, it's not like I was trying to roll on top of her every night or anything, but I was still trying. I'd rub her back, my hand would wander, she'd even let me go so far as to start rubbing myself against her. Then the excuse would come out. So at that time, not only was I not getting any, she was essentially "making" me go to sleep horny. And as I pointed out before, she sees masturbation equal to cheating. So it's not like I could point blank say "Well you let 'This' happen so now I need to go take care of it." Also as I mentioned, she's Catholic, it's a Catholic thing. So anyway, during one of the argument sections of our sex/no sex cycle, I explained exactly what had happened and why I stopped trying to have sex. She said that she tried many times to get me to have sex with her. Gave me "examples". Wearing a short night shirt, not wearing panties, rubbing my arm. For the record her arm rubbing feels more like when you have a cat and you reach out to make sure your not going to roll over on it in bed. But she had given me at least one sign that I thought was very clear. No panties. Well fast forward just a little bit and the short night shirt and no panties thing, it was summer and it was hot in the bedroom. That was no longer a clear sign.
So ya, to shorten that last bit down. She only tells me after the fact in the middle of an argument that she has "wanted" sex and I failed to spot the signs.... that obviously follow no rules.
The self esteem thing, I may check that out, but if it's the kind of thing I think it is I'm probably already doing those things. Suppressing that is. Yes my inner dialog is pretty dark and horrible, but I've had a lot of years of acting experience (by acting I mean retail, if a retail worker is overly nice to someone yelling at them, they're are either bat-shit crazy or a good actor, I'm probably both)
Now the Blessing of the Marriage. That's a whole story in and of itself but I will try to not ramble to much. She's Catholic, I'm not. When we originally got engaged it was going to be a catholic wedding (her family etc... Catholics are crazy about that stuff) We did the Pre-Cana, met with the priest etc. The priest called off the wedding a month before the date. Said that since she worked in retail on Sundays instead of being in church, she wasn't dedicated enough to the church to be married. Fast forward to last year, I had been at the same retail job for almost 17 years (different positions but same place) She was trying to change jobs for the (4th?) time since we got together. She was trying to get hired at her church (different one but still Catholic) and the priest told her that he couldn't hire her for the position she wanted because she was "living in sin" since we weren't married in a Catholic church. That's the gist on that one. The whole situation lead to a lot of changes, some good and some bad. Currently the bad far outweighs the good but I said I'd keep this short-ish.
I sort of feel like I may have answered the last one about the "string of affairs" in the first big section. We had the time that night, we could have. We didn't.
There's still much more feeding into all this with ties to my own parents divorce, the events that caused me to lose faith in myself for what is now more than half my life. I did recently move past that event at least, but between the amount of time that it haunted me and my current situation, it feels less like a release of guilt and more like a transfer of guilt.
So that's part 2
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 22, 2023 5:43:58 GMT -5
...she had given me at least one sign that I thought was very clear. No panties. Well fast forward just a little bit and the short night shirt and no panties thing, it was summer and it was hot in the bedroom. That was no longer a clear sign. So ya, ...She only tells me after the fact in the middle of an argument that she has "wanted" sex and I failed to spot the signs.... that obviously follow no rules. The self esteem thing, I may check that out, but if it's the kind of thing I think it is I'm probably already doing those things. Suppressing, that is. Yes, my inner dialog is pretty dark and horrible, but I've had a lot of years of acting experience (by acting I mean retail, if a retail worker is overly nice to someone yelling at them, they're either bat-shit crazy or a good actor, I'm probably both) Now the Blessing of the Marriage. ... She's Catholic, I'm not. ...The priest called off the wedding a month before the date. Said that since she worked in retail on Sundays instead of being in church, she wasn't dedicated enough to the church to be married....the priest told her that he couldn't hire her for the position she wanted because she was "living in sin" since we weren't married in a Catholic church... So, she feels and acts hurt (pouting? tells you so?), and lectures. These are what takes the place of arguments. I don't hear much about your getting your side across. That's not a partnership, that's a dictatorship, but perhaps I'm exaggerating. I'm not clear just what it is she "throws back at you". Your reticence in communicating what you're feeling? Or that you're a bit randy at times? Rhythm method? Avoiding ovulation? Except when she wanted to make babies. That's not exclusively Catholic, but it follows the cliché. Fair to say she doesn't think much of 1 Corinthians 7? An a la carte Catholic? To be fair, devout Christians do a great job of hammering home the urgency of chastity to the point where hitting the off switch requires a rather enormous 180 of the brain that lots of people fail to pull off. Their bodies get deprived before marriage, but their minds get fucked a lot. A few podcasts I have listened to suggest a more clear, yet subtle signaling system. One hosted by our own angelwanderer told teh tale of a marriage counselor suggesting having two dolls on a bookshelf. When someone is open to the idea, lie your doll on its side. When both are on their side, the atmosphere should be ripe for coupling. The predictable problem was that the wife's doll was just as erect as Angelwanderer all the time, whether his doll was or not. It served the purpose of calling "bullshit" about catching any "mood". The mood wasn't there to be caught. It was snipe hunting. Your discovery that she's kidding herself (or maybe only you) that opportunities are there seems reasonable, but doesn't get you where you want/need to be. The Dad Starting Over approach is more action oriented. It is a possible redirection of your reaction to your sexless marriage. Less acting, less feeling, less being in your own head, less inadequacy obsession. It's objective improvement to build confidence in a new reality you create. Work towards a future you want and the pride of accomplishment can help confidence in what and who you are, which, in turn, can stop the satisfaction with teh status quo you convince yourself is okay or that you deserve nothing more. Supposedly they have some one-on-one coaching services, if you have teh means and feel like it would help. Start with the podcasts though, it'll adequately present an alternative life course you can choose that will at least be different from this life-sucking status quo. It may help lift that inner dialog. Dark, you say? Depression? Any meds? Not to say that is necessarily a good idea. Clinical depression is sadness without reason. You have damn good reason to be sad. Drugs aren't supposed to make you okay with a sh*t situation. That'd be dysfunctional. Brains want to solve problems and perform bodily purpose. They aren't designed to make normal physical appetites to disappear. (Though some of them kill capability to fulfill them!) So, the "blessing" was getting re-married in a Catholic church? You'd been married but only by a heathen? You'd not been married in the Church's eyes, nor her family's? Wow, what a PITA. Okay. Or were you only engaged, but living together? Not sure the details matter here, but they sure did to the priest. That the priest waited until a month before the wedding was a nice move; not like a priest calling off a wedding isn't a red flag. She didn't have this retail job the whole time? Maybe the counseling doesn't last that long. The "event" and transfer of guilt may be a Part 3. Lots to work with here already. So...if you wander around the site (maybe locate topics of interest using teh "Search" function of the site), you'll very likely find the classic three options when the question arises: "Okay, you're sexless. What do you want to do about it?" 1) Stay sexless and learn to cope with it better. 2) Outsource. (secretly, informing your spouse, getting consent) 3) Divorce In your situation, that could mean indulging physical need to decompress and ignoring her sanctimony which ignores physical appetites she doesn't have in nearly the abundance you do. It could mean seeing a concubine so as to not sin with masturbation, nor take another to wife. (is masturbation really an affair, dear? Because I'll need a substitute if it isn't you.) Or perhaps decide that marrying a devout Catholic was a mistake for both of you and it could be better to let an equally devoted Catholic man be celibate with her as her family would prefer. You'll find no judgement for any of these solutions, or any other, here. All have known the mind-eroding forlorn depression of celibate marriage. It'll make you do things you'd rather not. David, Moses, Jacob, and Solomon all had multiple wives. Perhaps they, too, avoided the sin of masturbation when headaches, exhaustion, and the grind of child-rearing made passion to great a burden. (Well, maybe not Jacob. He was poly form the jump). Perhaps your Sarai can be brought to understand the need for a Hagar, but for different reason. Or, the simplest answer. Maybe she can understand good Catholics are fruitful and they multiply and that does not mean denial. I recognize the religious inclinations may only be serving as justification for emotional states she prefers to hold anyway, so much of this is baiting. The use of the Bible as a cudgel deserves such satire in response.
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 22, 2023 18:31:30 GMT -5
Typically I only make posts when I have a full keyboard in front of me but that might not happen tonight so instead I'm currently typing from a parking lot waiting for my oldest. So pardon typos and shorthand that may occur.
The line "throwing it back at me" is actually referencing the way she tries to prove that she's still interested in sex. I tell her how I feel rejected and feel like there's nothing I can do, and in response she tries to make it sound like she has tried to initiate multiple times and I rejected her. But it's never anything obvious so it's not like it's anything I can really argue against. In short I suppose you could simply say that her argument weapons are guilt trip and gaslight. Tell me that I'm overreacting, that she doesn't do that to me. Then create a scenario that I can't refute and use it to say that it's me who ignores her.
So the event in a lengthy nutshell. To make it easier here are the actors in this story. My high school girlfriend = C, and C's daughter = K.
My senior year C and I had been together since sophomore year, we were close freshman year. C was in National Honor Society, I had a rough freshman year but as a Senior I had one of the highest GPA's in our class. That year I had the highest score in the hardest science class taught there. So we were both intelligent and things looked good for us, college etc. That's also the year my own parents separated and started getting a divorce. C left me a few weeks after graduation. Left me for an ex of hers who was at that time in jail. I went off to the college that we were supposed to attend together. We had both been accepted. I went, she did not go to college at all. My parents were still going through divorce proceedings. I stayed in touch with C, not only did I hope to get her back at that time but she had been a friend since first grade. But that New Years Eve I spent with her and her family, she was still with "that guy" but now I was the other guy. (I know bad situation all around and throws up red flags but I was 19 so bare with me) "That guy" called her and obviously she had to talk to him and while she was on the phone with him I finally grew a spine. I told her I couldn't keep being the guy she came to when he was mean or lost his temper, I couldn't keep being her side piece. I welcomed that New Year driving back to my mom's house trying to see the road through the tears. When she left me for someone in jail on drug charges it broke me. When she chose him a second time, it shattered me. That spring my dad had a failed suicide attempt. My grades at college were, well bad would be a kind word. That summer my parents divorce was finalized, but not before his lawyer put me on the stand and told everyone that I must not be cut out for college. That fall C have birth to K, "that guy" is K's dad. Now to skim over a lot of years, C had a string of ex's, thus K hard a hard life which I would later find out was much worse than I thought. C had another daughter with another guy. C had another daughter that was stillborn with her another guy. I was no longer in contact with C at this point but was able to stay current because of family contact. I blamed myself for years over everything that happened to her. I assumed I must have caused it. Remember she broke me all those years ago so I had a terrible self image already and I took on that guilt of apparently pushing her away, and kept seeing all these things as my fault. K grew up in this environment and one day randomly sent me a friend request online. Now comes the part where I finally let go of that guilt (yes by this time I'm married to my wife and we have our kids. In fact K and I have talked online off and on for about 5 years now and my wife knows who she is and that I worry about her like our own kids) But it wasn't until recently when I started feeling suicidal myself (actually a couple years ago now) I sent K a message and we started talking more than we had in the past. I found out she'd had a pretty tough year with an abusive boyfriend. K might have actually saved my life just by being there for me. But anyway I'm getting off track slightly. Eventually she opened up about more of what she's been through. There was a lot of things she told me that infuriated me that she had to endure. The thing she told me that finally broke my self imposed guilt over her mother's life though (and it's much worse than in going to say here) when K was 16, C's boyfriend drugged and rapped K. C knew about it and not only didn't call the police, she used that knowledge to cause K more mental anguish. (Like I said, it's actually even worse than this but this story is supposed to be about me not C) When K finally told me what her mother had become I no longer took the blame upon myself, that was way too far to fall.
The problem however and the reason I say transfer of guil is that I may have let go of the guilt over C, but now with my own problems getting worse... It's almost like letting go of that guilt made room for different guilt to move in. Guilt over not finishing college, guilt about my marriage, guilt about not being a better father. All the standard guilt and regrets that people have just has so much more space to occupy because I let go of 20+ years of guilt.
If I get a chance I'll amend this but typing like this is terrible on my neck.
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 22, 2023 21:11:07 GMT -5
ok so now that I can type correctly my little amendment. Yes we were still married on our original wedding date but not by a Catholic priest. Getting the marriage blessed allowed her to take the job that she wanted which is a new source of trouble in itself but I digress again.
I have listened to some of DSO, most is as you say common sense and nothing new. The few things I've gleaned from it that are "new" are not actually things that I had not thought of before but rather things that I had suspected and just never really delved deeper into. Like me being boring and at the center of the things keeping her from feeling sexual, kids/work etc. It's not anything I hadn't already considered but rather wrote off as unavoidable because well, in our situation it is unavoidable. The things he suggests to try to jumpstart her out of it are impossible. Our youngest is autistic making child care for even an afternoon difficult. 2 of our family that could help have passed and the one remaining that is willing lives in assisted living. Even if we could trust him with hired help, we can't afford it. I work 2 jobs just to keep our house that is already a low payment so we truly can not afford anything more.
additional amendment to the amendment. Just a few random points that add to the picture as a whole. I used to be a hopeless romantic. When I was with C I was head over heals in love, Like I said in the previous post, she and I had known each other for years and were always in the same small circle of friends. I didn't grow up Catholic but that didn't mean I was w/o religion. C was my first and I had always had this childish notion back then that I would only have sex with the person I would marry. It wasn't because the church I went to growing up was strict, it's just that was who I was. So I had a very (as I look back on it now) warped sense of morality. I wanted to have that fairy tale life and I thought I was on my way. So when C left me the way she did, and with everything else happening at the time, even at that age it destroyed everything I had held dear to me. Looking back I knew I had raised her up too high. I was blind, and I actually even recognized that very soon after it happened but that didn't stop me from wanting her back, at least up until that new years.
Also your statement about a dictatorship, ya, I recognize that too. Sex is not the only thing my wife does that with. She likes to make a statement about something like the law on something etc like it's fact and so I should listen to her. I've learned to just let it go because it's far worse if I actually care enough to look into it and prove her wrong. But while things like disciplining your children actually has clear rules that you can find in laws, there is no such proof against claims that she's not rejecting me and instead I'm rejecting her because I can't pick up on the difference between her not wearing underwear to bed because she's in the mood or because it's to hot to sleep with a little strip of cloth on her bottom.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 23, 2023 6:08:17 GMT -5
...The line "throwing it back at me" is actually referencing the way she tries to prove that she's still interested in sex. ...Guilt over not finishing college, guilt about my marriage, guilt about not being a better father... I tend to write replies as I read. You explained "throwing it back" and I failed to erase that question. Oops. Thanks for repeating and humoring me anyway. Man, I'd say you'd dodged a bullet with the girlfriend who prefers ex-cons and squandering intellectual gifts, except you ended up with a sexless marriage. A daughter? In high school? Dad Starting Over would accuse you of "Knight in Shining Armor" syndrome. You get off on rescuing women from themselves. I get it. Glad you lost the guilt over C's bad decisions. You were a lifeline, she chose the floating piece of flotsam. You can lead a horse to water... First loves are full of dreams, though. I get that too. I love the slam from your parents' lawyer. I assume that was an attempt to reduce an award from whoever was the higher earner (likely dad that long ago). Not cool that dad didn't draw a line of what he was willing to do to save money. I got a similar vote of confidence from a half-sister's letter due to struggling grades. Ended up on Dean's list by junior year. Ah, the power of a studious girlfriend as a role model. Hope your self-destructive mindset has eased up. You may find your life getting on a more favorable course once you peruse the collected wisdom of the ILIASM crowd. Glad K was a help. In terms of being a good father, one of the common tactics of ILIASM members, regardless of which of the three options they use, is investing in their kids. If you divorce or outsource, it gives the bond time to grow strong enough that they'd hear out your side of thing. If you stay, looking after the kiddos can be a key component of your life. What would a good father being doing that you haven't been? (but might be able to start?) What substitute involvement might be available if your ideal cannot be met? Is the college thing just self-guilt? Or is anyone else giving you grief for that? Is it a pride thing? Is it possible to complete your degree? (This could be a pursuit if you do end up separating and have big blocks of time, suddenly.) Is it worth doing even if you could. Does a college degree bring you anything that's proportionately valuable? There may not be. Guilt over your marriage? Why? Because you're thinking of endangering it because there are no / minimal relations? In a way, you're shaming everyone here. Maybe you need to be a little more sympathetic to yourself on this. Once upon a time, sex was the reason to marry. Marriage minus sex is friendship. Extremely close friendship maybe, but not more. You want to be married. You want adult companionship. This is downright ordinary. The gym may not be an option, but a home gym might be. Second hand equipment can be cheap. Especially in March now that New Years' resolutions are faceplanting in droves. Getting toned feels pretty good. The DSO crowd talks about muscles you can see, but just being fit puts you above a lot of folks and may help the self-confidence. If you're already fit, a bit of actually definition can make you objectively pleased that you're not refused for any legit reason. This can make decisions easier and, as a longshot, turn the marriage around. (But please note, this does not seem to happen for men without a credible threat of divorce or outsourcing. See the anecdotes here on ILIASM. I may be wrong... blunder8, was divorce or outsourcing broached before your wife saw the light?) DSO also passes on the bad news that many women claim to want to know what's in your head, but they really don't. They kid themselves. Your stress just adds to hers. The 50's dad thing, gruff, quiet, can-do kick ass attitude? It's paleolithic and embarrassing for us as a species, but we're not ready for the self-reflective mental health nirvana we profess to want. Your self-confidence may be telegraphing worry and anxiety that undermines admiration and attraction. He recommends getting guy friends to have a beer with and to dump on. That way you don't dump on the wife and a façade of brave indestructability can be constructed and maintained with duct tape. It may be stupid and immature, but it might be what's called for. On the plus side, developing side friendships is also one of the steps to building your social circle which braces you for separation if you choose it later. Many of the actions taken to prepare for ending a sexless marriage are just healthy behavior in general. It's a no-lose situation. Perhaps this step might involve lunch with a favored co-worker, since leaving the house seems to be very hard for you.
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Post by blunder8 on Mar 23, 2023 8:15:30 GMT -5
"See the anecdotes here on ILIASM. I may be wrong... blunder8, was divorce or outsourcing broached before your wife saw the light?)"No, neither of these came up in conversation. I simply chose to emotionally detach as a consequence for being denied. Like heelots, I made her my rommmate. I didn't think it would work for a reconciliation. I was only using this to force a conversation. It did this and more.
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 23, 2023 23:09:14 GMT -5
The college thing is a multifaceted guilt. No, no one is giving me grief over it but for one, it's another one of those pieces of paper that hold far more importance than it should at times. For instance the job I left retail for, I am the head of maintenance now at a school because I can fix almost anything and if I don't know how to do it, I learn how to do it. Basically unless it's a big job that would require a large crew or equipment that I don't have access to, I do it. I started a year ago simply as maintenance/janitorial but because I have had general contracting experience and am willing to get dirty every time they asked me to call (random_professional) I would instead say "Give me a minute" and I'd do it. But because I don't have that degree I don't have the leverage to get more compensation. I did negotiate for more than was initially offered, but I know that with a college diploma of any kind, I could have got more.
It is also a little bit of pride also, I won't lie. Before those events detailed above, I enjoyed school, I am still the kind of person that is constantly learning. Like I said a few moments ago, if I don't know how to do something, I learn it. Granted I don't know how to do things like knitting and I'm not about to pick up knitting needles just to learn, but something like servicing the tractor at work? That's similar to repairing my truck but on a smaller scale. I just needed to research what hydraulic fluid to use, capacity, access points etc. How a Sloan flush valve works and troubleshooting it, easy once you know the physics of the thing.
But because I don't have the ability to check anything higher than "some college" I lose that bargaining chip. It shouldn't matter with the work I do, and yet, it does. I don't think I would gain much in the way of useful knowledge unless I was to completely change career path, but I do wish I had been in the right frame of mind to soldier through when I had the chance. I have looked into it and I haven't completely thrown the option out the window, but it does become more of an improbability the longer I go without acting on it.
The guilt about my marriage is really more just me asking myself "how did I get here?" It's not intended for anyone but me and me alone. I know I'm not the only one (especially on here) in this type of situation. However, at the same time, everyone on here dealing with a situation like this is unique. When you break it down to it's simplest parts sure, we're all the same, but the details and events leading up to it are all quite unique. No two of us said or did the exact same thing to get here. So that's where my thoughts go in this. Did I not handle this right? Did I say the wrong thing? Was I not supportive enough when her dad passed away? Did I withdraw too far when my own dad passed? All those little things that may or may not have had an impact on the current outcome. Or like DSO says, is it something that is happening because I am trying to provide for the family and that's just not fun and I have to be less pragmatic. (I have listened to a number of those now and I've noticed that even though he frames it differently, he's essentially saying you have to be the provider and the bad guy all in one.) I'm not saying it's bad advice, I'm still listening to it. But I'm getting on a tangent again.
On that same not however, you mentioned guy friends to have a beer with and dump on? I did that once and it bit me in the ass. He's still my friend but I don't tell him much in that department anymore. He ran into her once where he was working at the time, and he decided to say something to her about it. That didn't go well. He was probably the last IRL friend I trusted enough to talk to and that's why my half of the cycle is now internalized or places like this. I talk to K from time to time about it a little but I never go into much detail. Like I said, I think of her like one of my own and it's not her job to help me through something like this. She does anyway just by listening (or reading) but I won't trouble her with anything more than a short outburst of frustration.
Not a required piece of info but as far as the gym you mentioned, I am a little out of shape but the one bonus to working a physical job is that I'm not much heavier than when we got together (10-15 pounds depending on the time of year) and last summer when our oldest joined cross country I may not have gone running with him (I am older and an ex-smoker after all) but I did ride with him while he was running and plan to again if he does it again. Or maybe even if he doesn't, I'll ride for me if I can find the time.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 24, 2023 18:31:11 GMT -5
... I do wish I had been in the right frame of mind to soldier through when I had the chance. I have looked into it and I haven't completely thrown the option out the window, .... The guilt about my marriage is .... Did I not handle this right? Did I say the wrong thing? Was I not supportive enough when her dad passed away? Did I withdraw too far when my own dad passed? ...Or like DSO says, is it something that is happening because I am trying to provide for the family and that's just not fun and I have to be less pragmatic. (I have listened to a number of those now and I've noticed that even though he frames it differently, he's essentially saying you have to be the provider and the bad guy all in one.).... ... you mentioned guy friends to have a beer with and dump on? I did that once and ... he decided to say something to her about it. That didn't go well.... ... as far as the gym you mentioned, ... when our oldest joined cross country I may not have gone running with him (I am older and an ex-smoker after all) but I did ride with him while he was running and plan to again if he does it again. Or maybe even if he doesn't, I'll ride for me if I can find the time. When preparing for divorce or outsourcing, building that life that does not include your refuser, finishing an education could be filling some of the time in the event one fo you chooses to end things. Starting this project now fills some hours that might otherwise be spent doting on your loving wife. So, kids, college, look up some old friends, throw in a workout schedule or hobby and you have a new life. If the wife wants to be part of it, great. When you're so busy you barely see her, you can have " The Talk". It sounds like the guilt over marriage is assuming you did something and your response has been "why chasing". It gets brought up a lot. The most common answer to "Why?" is... "It doesn't matter. You're sexless, what will your response be?" Equally commonly no one gets an answer to their question. The refuser often doesn't know (or at least says they don't know) That summary of DSO's advice sounds fair. His essays are a bit about execution of actions to implement the "bad guy". More charitably, I find it plausible that men who obsess over their wives place pressure on those wives to appreciate the terrific lives they should be enjoying. If they aren't happy, they get a little squirrely. Their husbands are frustrated their wives don't seem to appreciate the effort, and that gets them to be unhappy with teh effort. A possible antidote is to pursue your own career, health, friendships, and hobbies with gusto and let her learn from your exuberant embrace of your life. It can inspire her. She may choose to help you or join you in some of your pursuits and take joy in that companionship. They find greater joy in giving attention and affection than in receiving it, but we are given the message that we are to romance and spoil our ladies. Well, maybe sometimes, but this is an alternative worthy of experimentation. In this anonymous forum....pretty safe no one is going to confront Mrs. Clarkjobe about any of it; a good start. The riding for fun part is another good piece of the puzzle. Maybe there's a riding group somewhere nearby? (meetup.com?) So far, so good in building a new life. What courses would you need to complete a degree?
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 25, 2023 7:48:47 GMT -5
I'm sad to say that credit wise, I would likely be looking at 3 years at least. Course wise, likely all the required ones. My first year as I said , to call it bad is being generous. The second year at community college iirc the only courses I took/did well in were pretty much elective courses. At that time computers were still something that you had to know what you were doing so I was working towards A+ certification. There was a miscommunication and I was lead to believe that I could get it from there but whether they stopped offering it that year or what I'm not sure. They had the courses but you had to get the certification elsewhere. So I did well in all the computer related courses, repair, DOS (it was still a thing then, in a round about way still is), also took a Photoshop class that I and a couple friends ended up almost teaching because we were all familiar with it and had the projects done before the instructor even finished the lesson and so we would always help everyone else and suggest better shortcuts. (Sounds like I'm tooting my own horn there and I actually am because that was a bright moment in an otherwise dark time)
So in short I likely need everything. Anything that would still be relevant today I didn't do well in, and what I did do well in is most likely no longer applicable.
I've still been listening to DSO. I figure that if nothing else it may help to get my head in the right spot. Where I'm at in the podcasts seems to be a shift in his direction. It's more constructive and less "get over it" style of message. So far the most helpful episodes are the ones with interviews or with Mrs. DSO. Doesn't mean I'm at a point that I'm ready to have the talk yet but for once I'm actually "working" toward it rather than getting to a breaking point and just unloading it. Whether it plays out well is yet to be seen obviously but hopefully that's the biggest piece that I've missed all these other times, to actually break away from the hurt before it gets to the point that I start thinking of doing something drastic.
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Post by h on Mar 27, 2023 6:53:25 GMT -5
You're not Catholic. Tell her if she's not going to have sex with you then you're going to take care of yourself whenever you feel like it and she can learn to live with it. She probably won't divorce you because she's Catholic and if she did, she would be looked down on at church.
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Post by clarkjobe on Mar 31, 2023 22:51:25 GMT -5
Although that's pretty much what's been done for years, that's not exactly something I'm about to spell out like that. It would really serve no purpose other than to start an argument.
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