angelwanderer
New Member
currently podcasting on Dirty Rabbit Hole
Posts: 11
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by angelwanderer on Apr 2, 2023 4:04:38 GMT -5
Hi clarkjobe,
My ex-wife is Catholic. After we divorced, a Priest friend called up to wish us a Merry Christmas. He didn't know about the marriage's finality, but he went on to inform me that many people in the Catholic Faith (particularly women) have problems with issues surrounding sex. It wasn't anything he was prepared to put his finger on, but he implied that the process left them with feelings of shame and guilt. (Who doesn't already know that!)
During our dating years, odd things popped up here and there. My then-girlfriend called me one day at work to let me know she thought she was pregnant. She said she was "regular as clockwork", therefore that was the only logical outcome as to why she was three days late for her period. There was a problem. We didn't have sex. Catholic 101 clearly states there's to be no sex before marriage and we were playing the game well. Besides, we'd only been dating for a week or two. Handholding was all we'd achieved at that point. (In our twenties if you're curious)
And then there was the ovulation tester that didn't get used. Now married, we'd planned to have children and months went by before anything happened. It came in the form of another argument. I said something stupid about having to have sex to make a child. She accused me of not trying hard enough because I hadn't asked about the lipstick-shaped cylinder on the edge of our bathroom vanity. Apparently, I showed no interest in it at all and she interpreted that as a no-go area. When I rushed to the bathroom to get the thing she spoke of (and it looked like any kind of cosmetic item that belonged there) I returned it to her and held it up. "This?" I asked. "How are you supposed to know you're ovulating when you haven't even taken it out of the wrapper?"
I feel the Priest was right. There is a connection between some kinds of sexual dysfunction and the Catholic Church. I know your post mentioned it (briefly) but it stopped me in my tracks. It's possible that the issues you see on the surface of your marriage might run much deeper -- coming from some kind of religious guilt, shame, or anxiety complex. My ex-wife is a highly intelligent, logical, empathetic, well-spoken woman. But when it came to physical intimacy, she was always a twelve-year-old. Sex was evil and something to fear. Bad things happened to her if she even said the word. So, she didn't speak about it at all. Performing sex was a psychological nightmare.
Your wife probably didn't think she was the next Virgin Mary (like mine did), but some part of her upbringing could've twisted things around a bit. I don't know what to do about it. It's hard to undo what might've never happened in the first place. Couple's counselling could help. At the very least, it'll allow you to say how you feel. Many people report that speaking out their thoughts (in a therapy room) does a lot for them. Try that. If given enough time, it might even reveal what's actually been going on. There are no guarantees. We did it for many years and then got divorced anyway.
Sometimes that's the right answer too.
-A
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 6, 2023 19:49:39 GMT -5
I thought that story sounded familiar as I was reading it. I listened to your podcast. To be honest it felt like there was to much focus on pushing the book, but I kept listening because there were a few helpful nuggets in there. After all, it lead me here which in turn lead me to DSO. Neither has really "taught" me anything I didn't already know, but DSO's podcast has changed my perspective a little. My biggest take-away from the DSO podcast right now is that in my current situation, unless I am able to claw my way up to the top 20% in earnings (Which is quite out of reach because of the combination of lacking a degree and having a special needs child and no family to leave the kids with) I'm quite screwed, and not in the fun way. I have at different times taken on the housework, I take care of the kids (don't take that as I do everything for them but rather that I'm involved as much as I can working up to 12-13 hours a day at times) I may not be in peak physical condition but as I stated, I've worked physically demanding jobs for about 20 years now so I'm still in decent shape.
DSO paints a picture of a couple who throws money at the problem. Hiring babysitters, trips to New York, New Orleans, over seas. That's just not ever going to be in the cards for me. There will never be a way for there to be any "date nights" where we can be away from the kids. And to throw gas on the fire, that job that we had to bless our marriage for her to be able to get means she's making about 33% of what she used to make. It won't sound like much to some people but my credit card that I used to keep under $500 charge is now up over $2000, and I can't afford to pay it down. Soon it will be maxed and I can't do anything about it. She knows I'm hemorrhaging money, and still she asks me for more every week for the few bills I didn't take over when we changed jobs. She's afraid to ask for more money because she likes her job and doesn't want to risk losing it, but that means I'm over here working 2 jobs and trying to think of how I can get a third.
I'm half expecting to hear the old troupe "Why don't you spend more time with me and the kids?" She pulled that one when our oldest was only 3 months old because I was outside hanging Christmas lights (which was something she wanted) I'm already spread thin, and I have to spread myself even more, just to stay afloat.
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Post by baza on Apr 6, 2023 21:07:26 GMT -5
Reading your run of posts Brother clarkjobe , it appears that the sexual aspect of your deal is just one of many issues evident in your ILIASM situation, and probably not even the main issue. And, it looks like you are the only one trying to address the issue(s). Your missus appears to actually be an impediment to your efforts. Based solely on what you have written in your posts, she comes across as a selfish twat. It is going to be a hell of a job to bring this situation to resolution. I'm sure this is not news to you. So much of life these days depends on "money" so that might be the place to start. The escalation of your card debt is alarming, the fact that the card will max out soon is doublingly worrying. Maybe you need to consult a financial advisor, lay your position on the table and see what advice you get. If you were to get that financial issue under some sort of control, then you might be in a position to start working on the next thing. The lack of sex issue is a looong way down the list I think. Probably the least of your problems at this point.
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 7, 2023 6:13:49 GMT -5
You're certainly not wrong in that, even the selfish part.
Funny story with that. For about a year she took a salaried management position with her previous employer. When she accepted the position she started talking about everything we would be able to afford/pay off etc. We traded in one of our vehicles to get her a new one (newer at least, not new) because the only open position was over an hour away and she didn't "trust" the old car to make it. Went so far as to comment to one car salesman that who ignored us that he might have just lost 2 sales because she was considering replacing both cars.
Well in the end we only replaced the one luckily and she started her new position. Now this has been years ago, back when things were a little more affordable, but that meant that I would go in to work at 4 or 5 AM, she would get the kids ready for school / grandparents etc. (Back then we still had options for family help) Then she'd head off to work and I would pick the kids up when I got out of work and have them the whole rest of the day. I'd take care of our boys, feed them, put them to bed, then go to bed alone to start it over.
Here's where the funny part comes in, I do not see anything in the way of helping to pay down debt like she said. Instead she would eat out while at work everyday (yes I'm fully aware that there might have been more going on at that time other than eating lunch) She would buy the most random shit with her discount which had always been a problem but before she didn't make enough to do it every day. Top that all off with the fact that I think I remember a few times she asked for money for different things and yes I was a little bitter about the whole situation. At one point I had gotten to where after I got the boys to bed I would have a drink or two. Never anything serious really, cup of hot tea with a splash of whiskey (not strong mix) things like that. The point is that I was still careful to not get to a point that I couldn't drive if I had to, because I was home alone with the kids. I'm getting sidetracked here.
So anyway, she had this job she fought for and making good money, I'm working the same job I'd had for years because it allowed me to work early enough for me to pick up the boys and making probably about $9/h at that time, and still covering all my previous bills and occasionally extras. We went days at a time without speaking because of the hours we had except for the occasional phone call she would make to complain about something at work or to tell me something random.
Eventually she stepped down and came back to the local location because she couldn't handle the distance and she felt like it endangered our family life. Fast forward a little bit and I receive a chunk of money after my dad passes away. I pay down a few bills and we take a vacation, but I hold back enough to pay off the car she had to have when she took that job. I simply went to the bank and did it as a surprise and didn't tell her. You know what? I didn't get any praise, no hugs, no kisses, no nookie, I don't even know if I got a thank you. Even if she did say thank you it was completely negated by the thing she said not even 1 minute after she found out that I paid off the car. "Now I can get a new one!"
I feel like maybe my timeline is off here because she did get a new car and we're still paying, no, "she's" still paying on it and my dad passed away 10 years ago next month. That was one thing I told her I wanted no part of. I paid her car loan off to save us money and I was not about to have any part of adding another car payment to our bills. To her credit, she only asked for help once with her car payment and after I reminded her that I wanted nothing to do with that car, she hasn't asked again. I know that in a round-about way I'm making payments on it now because I'm taking care of the phones completely and every month I have to give her another 100 or so for the power bill, and I'm paying for all the groceries (thus that credit card that was only for gas before now having a 2K debt) But at least she hasn't asked for money directly relating to the car.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 10, 2023 5:47:33 GMT -5
Good on you for recognizing you are still paying for her car by taking up her share of other bills.
Any interest in examining your finances together?
My wife used to spend too much. That was a constant source of friction. We would fix it briefly with something called "Operation Zero".
If we couldn't pay off a card one month, we would buy nothing but gas and groceries until the card was paid off and dead. She'd grown up with parents that had constant credit card debt. My way of living was foreign to her. She hated Operation Zero. She stopped spending as much, but we were getting regular cash infusion from my well-to-do mother. (trying to dodge inheritance taxes.) I explained I wanted to end each year flat broke, it didn't seem too much to ask.
Being in debt was enslavement. When she bought stuff and our balance was draining at a pace that meant we'd be in debt before the year was over, I explained, "Every time you spend money we don't have, you're telling me you don't want me around. You want me to leave teh house and earn more money so you can spend more and buy more."
I didn't drill it as far as I wanted. You want money I can earn more than you want my time. You'd rather have bullshit Chinese crap from Amazon than spending time with me. You don't care that if I wanted to work less I couldn't. The money is already spent. I am the slave of the banks. I cannot stop working.
My mantra that I would utter around the house was "Money, money, money. It's all I care about." and "I want to be RICH! I want so much fucking money you won't be able to spend it all."
And so I started a small business with the mindset of doing just that. I'd no longer be in danger of debt. It made family life sparse and threadbare. No one was doing the white picket fence American dream. It was permanent servitude to materialism. Yet, we kept doing it. My wife didn't seem to see it for the shitshow it was.
It is my strong suspicion that my wife bought things for the dopamine hit. She's clinically depressed and buying worthless crap from Amazon gave her a lift when she clicked "Buy" and another when it arrived. The internet made enslavement of her husband easy. It made our marriage frustrating. Fuck you, Bezos.
I'd see packages that hadn't been opened now and then. Our house is hopelessly cluttered with shit she didn't need, but bought anyway, unthinking. The 21st century has delivered an unexpected challenge to life. Getting rid of stuff. I've discovered no one wants to spend any effort doing it. The house is perpetually messy. We move crap from room to room, as if that helps anything. The shopping sprees have largely ended, for some reason (I have my guesses why), but birthdays and Christmas still add to the piles of belongings that have no shelf or bin to store then. The floor is thoroughly equipped with lots of storage space, but they are full to bursting. So floors, tables and every surface get occupied. No reckoning occurs. Time is not spent making Marie Kondo decisions.
Well, that rant went on longer than it should've.
I guess I can ask, is your wife engaging in self-medication the way mine did? Temporary relief of depression with new crap she doesn't need? Why is a newer car so irresistible that she never wants to be financially solvent and be able to just relax a bit?
As a totally unsolicited snooping inquiry, what other subscriptions do you have other than phones? Cable TV? Do you rent? A Mortgage? Would moving to a smaller home with a longer commute make finances work?
This is very important because a maxed out card will force change if you don't do it on your timeline. The train of bankruptcy is coming down the track and you will scale back. It is impossible to live the lifestyle your wife is taking for herself with other people's (banks') money. every day you delay means two days you live in poverty, digging yourself out later.
12-13 hour days? How many of those per week? You may not have much to work with here. You have some solid compatriots here at ILIASM. Finances are holding some members in their sexless marriages.
In the event your wife cannot make herself live within means, you may need to make an escape plan for your own safety. Fixing finances while tethered together with her may be impossible. A divorce on paper may be the best way to help both of you, the vows to God and each other can stay put, but it lets you work on your side of poverty/destitution so only one of you gets ruined. If she hits rock bottom, you'll have the strength to help, if she forms a pattern of behavior that can plausibly succeed.
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Post by baza on Apr 10, 2023 22:39:06 GMT -5
What Brother mirrororchid says above is hugely relevant. If you don't - or won't - manage your financial affairs, then someone else will. That 'someone' might be a spendthrift spouse running things into the ditch, or it may be your credit card providor, or whoever holds the mortgage on your house. Rest assured that if you cede control of your finances, then others will be running your show, and believe me, they will make whatever choices they deem to be in their best interests, not yours. For example, in my jurisdiction, the card companies carry an interest rate of around 20% .... lets look at that in action. Lets say you owe about $3,000 at the end of January. The minimum payment needed is about $ 57 per month. That will cover the months interest - about $50 - and about $ 7 of the principle If that $ 57 per month continues it will take you about 45 years to pay it off. By which time you'll have paid about $16,000 in interest, plus the $3,000. Do the math. It is a rort, and you are getting fucked over. Again, if you can't or won't manage your finances, then someone else will - and they will manage them based on what's good for them, not you. In truth Brother clarkjobe , I dunno how you can afford to stay together. It looks like your missus has trashed her finances and is now working her way through yours.
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 12, 2023 11:06:29 GMT -5
I'm well aware of how the math on these things. We've always had "more debt than I like" but not usually to a point that I felt it was out of control. It was a case of well maybe this month I only pay the minimum on this to allow more here, and then next month back to paying it down. That kind of thing. I had already been cutting down on "extras" anyway but last night after she needed the card again for more gas, and a 24mi bike ride (not even joking on that one), I canceled everything but internet (youngest is autistic and a tablet w/o internet would be a disaster)
I have a feeling I'm going to have to sit her down far sooner than I planned. She saw me cancel all these things and didn't really say much, let alone ask how bad it is. I did the math while I was riding and estimated an extra $1300 that I took on after we changed jobs, then when I got to work this morning and had the rest of the info I was missing, it' $1500 w/o counting incidentals like helping with gas, elect, etc. That's really the only things she's still paying is energy bill, water, and her car payment.
Gotta love the roller coaster, a few weeks ago I was starting to feel somewhat hopeful. Now...
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 12, 2023 17:20:23 GMT -5
Sorry to hear you're feeling deflated. Sounds like you're hitting the numbers pretty hard. It's just as well. Finances are a bit off-topic and not the reason you dropped by.
Was the hopeful part about the money, or the sexlessness? Was it a matter of recognizing your expectations as being reasonable and respecting your needs as important?
Is there any plan about addressing her disapproval of the games of "solitaire" and the obvious alternative that is entirely within her ability to play instead? Or do you suspect it's just lip service on behalf of her helping you not to sin, rather than kill the temptation more tangibly?
I'd love see you get you back up the next hill and maybe keep you there where the view is better.
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 13, 2023 4:54:15 GMT -5
It was about the sexlessness. I had been making little changes in my routine and demeanor and forcing myself to breakdown my crusty exterior little by little. Things like sitting with her after dinner instead of just on the same couch, an unrequested hug or two per day. Went back to sleeping naked which is something I had done since we got together except for on the coldest nights but for the past year I had been sleeping in sweats and a t-shirt to deter myself from trying to initiate intimacy.
On an unrelated note, that's one thing I used to try to convince her to do. Even if only on occasion I used to hope she would sleep naked too. That was one of the positives that came from my times dating C, we would go camping and after our "naughty fun time" we both slept naked. There was something about that contact that went beyond the connection of sex. Perhaps that's a large part of why I fell so far when C left me, I had created a bond (at least in my mind) far beyond what I should have at that age. That's something I'm trying to instill in my oldest right now without using the cliche phrases that I heard as a kid, that it's great that he's "learning" about relationships, but not to let himself become so wrapped up in one yet to lose himself in it.
I like your little word play there on solitaire, but no I have no immediate plans on addressing that part of the problem. My subtle changes do seem to have had some effect on her overall attitude and actions, but I have not seen anything to indicate that things have actually changed. There's been a few verbal quips that could be interpreted as a desire to engage, but those have always popped up every month or two and I think that whether intentionally or subconsciously she uses those to be able to insinuate at a later date that she's still interested in sex. Like during an argument.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 13, 2023 5:44:17 GMT -5
"Since then there's a cycle we go through every year or two. We have sex for a while, (best run was during covid where it was 1-2 times a week until she went back to work) Then I'll start getting the cliché excuses. Tired, headache, I have to work early ... Followed shortly thereafter by "It's too hot in here, get on your side of the bed." and "You nearly pushed me off the bed last night." ... I'm trying to cuddle in my sleep and she's trying to get away. So I eventually shut down, I stop trying. I sleep on my own side of the bed, hanging off my side trying to put as much space between us as I can in the hopes I don't have to hear about me pushing her off the bed in the morning.
This goes on for a while. Once it was 2 full years, until something happens. Either I get depressed enough to talk to someone about it and they build me up enough to try again,..."
Do we know what preceded the "cycles" of "have sex for a while"? Or was it random?
Was there effort on your past? Or she just work up more sexually inclined one day, for a while, then it faded?
You said you've engaged in extra hugs lately. The reaction? Some refusers see those as overtures that they dread. When I was about to outsource, I started the intense hug and kiss initiatives as she left for work, an absurd time to be initiating sex, so it struck me as the most non-threatening environment I could think of. When none of it led to my asking, it seemed effective. It was taken as attraction and seemed well received. Feeling attractive can be a good thing for a refuser and if I was planning on intimacy with somebody at some point, it was not frustrating to know it would go nowhere. It wasn't supposed to do more.
When you say you aren't addressing her disapproval of "solitaire", are you avoiding it to any degree? Or just taking what you need? Have you restrained yourself previously, perhaps despite having no more fulfilling alternative?
Are her attitude changes a sufficient goal? If everything was perfectly amenable, but the marriage was still sexless, was this a victory you seek? Or is it intended as an interim step towards intimacy?
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 13, 2023 22:43:24 GMT -5
The thing that usually precedes the sex is an argument brought on either by me bringing up the amount of time it's been since the last time, or I get careless and get caught taking matters into my own "hands". That in itself doesn't help in the fact that I feel like it's always pity sex since she never brings it up.
The only times she has mentioned sex is (and this is sometimes what pushes me over the edge) when she makes an off hand comment to a friend about it. I can't recall specifics but I remember one time when we were at another couple's house and our kids were playing, the discussion went to sex somehow, and she made comments that made it seem like we were just fine in that department, having regular sex. Even cracked off a couple jokes about it. When she did that I just excused myself and went outside, I can't remember if I was smoking at that time or not but I found some reason to not be a part of that conversation. Most recently, and this is what got me started down this current path, she was telling me about something her coworker told a class that she was teaching (remember they're Catholic) Anyway, her coworker told the class of women that "they should always sleep naked so that if their husband wants sex then they are ready." Now even I don't agree with the implied logic there, so I was just kind of playing along with being appalled because I kind of was, but at the same time thinking to myself "ya, if only". But then she throws out (my wife says to me that is) "What about the husband sleeping naked so they're ready when we're in the mood?" It was so hard for me to not say "I've slept naked for years until recently and in the last 15 years the only time you've 'been in the mood' you started it with saying 'I'm ovulating'" but instead I went to the basement and started a load of laundry. That was about a month ago perhaps.
The reaction to the slight increase in affection (hugs etc) has been positive, that's why I had started to feel hopeful. I could see the reciprocation in kind even if only in small ways. Just not in anyway that makes me think she'll be willing anytime soon.
As far as the solitaire, I have reduced my uh, card games, but not really for anything to do with our lack of sex but rather from being tired at the end of the day. I'd say it's probably still 1-3 times a week on average, but I'm not going to bring that up with her simply because it will lead to an argument right now, probably followed by pity sex for a week or two, then , well you know the drill.
It sounds sort of petty and childish perhaps but right now, if she actually initiates then game on. Otherwise I'm not going to even consider fighting that battle until we get finances and stress figured out. Right now I have a job that I enjoy but is tainted by the fact that even though I make more than I did, it's still not enough, and I may have to leave it for a job I will hate. I have a second job that's ok, but I struggle to fill the hours because fixing things costs money and at that second job they don't like to spend it. (That's kind of it's own story, I don't dislike that job but it really is hard to fix things when I can't get the materials to do it.)
She really needs to decide if it's worth being in the job she's in.
A short overview of the financial struggle that it is causing... She is salaried for 20 hours at $12/H but actually works 35+ and is afraid to stand up for herself to get more. She loves her job and doesn't mind doing the work even at that pay, but it's killing me as a result. She used to make 18/H at 40+ hours and I used to make 17/H at 40 hours. I'm now salaried at my primary job for approx 19+/H and 10 hours a week at $15/H at the second.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 14, 2023 4:00:03 GMT -5
240+800+150=1190x4=~4800x12=~57k Fantastic money, in some parts of the country. Poverty in others. Don't suppose there are other Catholic schools around? Summer is coming. Good time to interview. She'd make more flipping burgers, unofficial hours included. Would she consider scaling back those unofficial hours and identify some self-employment to do instead until they pay for that extra work? (public teachers call it "work to the rule" when they're on unofficial strike). No letters of recommendation to colleges, parent teacher meetings, sports or coaching, lunchroom volunteering...nothing not actually in teh contract. Or, they keep her excellent service for $14/hr. to make up for the extra income she gives up for the school.
Curious about the "pity sex" During your COVID run of weekly romps, she initiated? Did you ask frequently and she agreed readily? Were sessions ever anything but missionary? Sex occurs mostly after arguments about length in between. Do you recall how long you go without when she has relented? Is there a number that does seem understandably bad for her? Or is it more a matter of how the argument goes? Is she "worn down"? Is teh volume of voices related? Do certain words que the switchover? (hints at divorce, outsourcing, abnormality? vows not kept?)
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Post by clarkjobe on Apr 14, 2023 15:18:55 GMT -5
Phone reply again so I may miss points
The sex/ argument part first. The arguments almost always occur with the same structure. Where she makes me out to be be horrible, it's my own fault, I don't do x,y,z, she's tried to initiate. Seldom is there accountability taken on her part and when there is, it's in the form of; I'll try "this", but you have to x,y,z.
There doesn't seem to be any change in her reaction based on the length of time.
As far as the work and her extra hours, I'm constantly dropping little bits in.
Last night she was talking about the priests wanting to hire a cook for 15 hours a week, she thought she'd do that. Great but she was thinking they'd maybe add 15x$15 to her salary. Cool, but then she'd work 35 at 12x20 and another 15+at $15 so works out to $465 for 50+ hours a week. That's not really impressing upon the priests that she's worth paying more. That's just telling them that she's there whenever they want her.
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Post by heelots on Apr 14, 2023 16:15:42 GMT -5
Phone reply again so I may miss points The sex/ argument part first. The arguments almost always occur with the same structure. Where she makes me out to be be horrible, it's my own fault, I don't do x,y,z, she's tried to initiate. Seldom is there accountability taken on her part and when there is, it's in the form of; I'll try "this", but you have to x,y,z. There doesn't seem to be any change in her reaction based on the length of time. As far as the work and her extra hours, I'm constantly dropping little bits in. Last night she was talking about the priests wanting to hire a cook for 15 hours a week, she thought she'd do that. Great but she was thinking they'd maybe add 15x$15 to her salary. Cool, but then she'd work 35 at 12x20 and another 15+at $15 so works out to $465 for 50+ hours a week. That's not really impressing upon the priests that she's worth paying more. That's just telling them that she's there whenever they want her. I feel for you brother. Nothing worse than being hitched to a Holy Roĺler. It matters not what flavor, Catholic, Baptist, take your pick, they all have a zillion excuses and every damned one of them is stitched together at the knees once they marry only granting access to the fun park for the purposes of pro creation. Once they have the kids done it is game over. As for head, forget it, that came to an abrupt end on the wedding day. Yup, being married is a bitch of a way to go through life once they have trapped you. Choose your option post wedding, cheat, leave, or jack off till you die and forget about banging the cow you are married to because that ain't an option. Make things easy if you stay and consider her a roommate with no benefits. The sooner you do that the better. 25 years in a sexless marriage and counting. The advice is good.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 14, 2023 16:27:47 GMT -5
I agree with heelots. You aren't going to change her. She isn't going to change. You have options. Not selecting an option is choosing to stay in exactly the same situation you're in. If you can't figure out which option to take, individual therapy can help you.
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