|
|
Post by petrushka on Jun 9, 2016 20:16:56 GMT -5
My guy is head over heals in love with the girl he believes he can change me into!  And I'm certain, without a doubt, he loves me as a sister and assimilates me as mum. Yeah, you called it - that's the typical mind-fuck in sooo many relationships. Note to self (and everybody else who reads this): OPEN YOUR STUPID EYES AND LOOK, REALLY LOOK AT WHOM YOU'RE DEALING WITH! Try to find out who that person really is, not whom you'd like them to be. Because, most likely, never the twain shall meet. |
|
|
|
Post by petrushka on Jun 9, 2016 20:26:28 GMT -5
We were talking about this in counselling yesterday. At one point the counsellor asked us what it was to us that made our relationship special and more than just a friendship. So I talked about feeling love, and desire and passion and wanting to bond very closely through a shared ongoing sexual relationship. My wife said she felt like she trusted me and was able to open up and talk to me more than she has ever done with anyone and how special that was. I said that sounded to me like a very deep friendship. She said her sexual relationships have always been dysfunctional and it just doesn't seem to be a part of her or important to her. The counsellor then replied that she would be very upset if I had sex with somebody else (this was from an earlier conversation). She said part of that was because she knows me and she knows I am not capable of having 'meaningless' sex with anyone. But she also recognised that it does have meaning to her too. So does she love me? I think she does as much as she is capable of right now. Does that look the way 'love' looks in my head? No. But there is without doubt a strong emotional connection there and I think our counsellor is hoping to leverage that to try and break through some of her barriers around sex. I think it was you who said he wasn't sure if therapy wasn't making things harder for your wife? Upsetting her and making her feel insecure? If so: that's the whole POINT of it. If you have a good therapist, it's their job to make you examine, re-examine your stance, the way you relate to other people, the way you relate to yourself. Questions, hard questions (and not telling you what to do, how to feel, that's just guff). If a therapist can't make me feel challenged and uncomfortable, they're not worth their salt. If {s}he's got her worried, then at least that's a sign that it's working, that she isn't shutting the two of you out entirely which would make it an exercise in futility. No guarantees of the outcome, of course, it may come out that she actually wanted something completely different in her heart of hearts- that is the risk YOU have to take. best, -P. |
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on Jun 9, 2016 20:42:47 GMT -5
Thanks petrushka. It was me, and she is definitely doing a good job of making us both feel uncomfortable. I think she is a good therapist. It does feel quite risky because we are both opening up and the therapy is aimed at bringing us closer together and creating stronger emotional ties. If we do that and find we still can't be together in a way that is going to make us both happy then it is going to be much more painful to let it go. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Jun 9, 2016 21:31:35 GMT -5
We were talking about this in counselling yesterday. At one point the counsellor asked us what it was to us that made our relationship special and more than just a friendship. So I talked about feeling love, and desire and passion and wanting to bond very closely through a shared ongoing sexual relationship. My wife said she felt like she trusted me and was able to open up and talk to me more than she has ever done with anyone and how special that was. I said that sounded to me like a very deep friendship. She said her sexual relationships have always been dysfunctional and it just doesn't seem to be a part of her or important to her. The counsellor then replied that she would be very upset if I had sex with somebody else (this was from an earlier conversation). She said part of that was because she knows me and she knows I am not capable of having 'meaningless' sex with anyone. But she also recognised that it does have meaning to her too. So does she love me? I think she does as much as she is capable of right now. Does that look the way 'love' looks in my head? No. But there is without doubt a strong emotional connection there and I think our counsellor is hoping to leverage that to try and break through some of her barriers around sex. I believe " intimacy" is a key word that you are lacking. Not that you are lacking it! Just try not to use the word " sex" as often. Call it what it is. Sex that leads to intimacy, and intimacy that leads to sex. And intimate moments. Long ones and short ones. Your wife mentioned trust. Trust plays a huge factor in intimacy. this may be a corny illustration, but here goes. I trust my dog. When he sees me first thing in the morning, tons of happy kisses! Any time of the day that I or anyone walks up to him, the tail goes immediately ! And watch out for the kisses! Those are intimate, trusting, sharing, caring moments between me and that animal. A bonding. No your wife is not a dog!! Lol!! you get the point. i have said from the moment we started therapy that I get more love from the dog. |
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on Jun 9, 2016 21:34:55 GMT -5
I believe " intimacy" is a key word that you are lacking. Not that you are lacking it! Just try not to use the word " sex" as often. Call it what it is. Sex that leads to intimacy, and intimacy that leads to sex. And intimate moments. Long ones and short ones. Your wife mentioned trust. Trust plays a huge factor in intimacy. this may be a corny illustration, but here goes. I trust my dog. When he sees me first thing in the morning, tons of happy kisses! Any time of the day that I or anyone walks up to him, the tail goes immediately ! And watch out for the kisses! Those are intimate, trusting, sharing, caring moments between me and that animal. A bonding. No your wife is not a dog!! Lol!! you get the point. i have said from the moment we started therapy that I get more love from the dog. You are right. And yes, my dog is much easier. She loves me and has no problem showing it at every opportunity! |
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 9, 2016 21:39:17 GMT -5
I think that avoidant spouses "love" what being married to you brings to their table (financier, social accessory, child minder, etc etc) but it doesn't follow that they particularly love you, the individual.
|
|
|
|
Post by DryCreek on Jun 9, 2016 21:40:27 GMT -5
So she does not share feelings. She can't even say how she feels. And I have found that I can't really do anything for her: whatever I do is somehow wrong, and I tried and tried and tried over the years and it only pissed her off. So I stopped trying and she is much happier that way. When we cuddle in the evening, it is she petting and stroking and cuddling me, I just put my head in her lap and kind of semi-doze and float. The absurd thing is that she's happier since I stopped trying to do things for her. Unfortunately MY movie says that I get a lot of happiness out of doing things for my lover. And so - I actually have difficulty seeing her as my lover any more. I can only really see her as a kind of BFF with non-sexual benefits. I have had good, solid relationships like that before, but they didn't start out as a marriage. They were about friendship, and not about love. So much of this parallels my own experience. W will cuddle, but I dare not reciprocate, and sure as hell better not try anything sensual. I call it a very "arms length" kind of intimacy, always keeping emotional distance. DC |
|
|
|
Post by darstar on Jun 9, 2016 21:44:55 GMT -5
Sure we get along with our spouses. We share laughs(some of us anyway), have nights out, confide in each other etc. But deep down, do they really like you in a way a spouse should? Do they really love you for you? Just how deep is that love? It's easy to pass-off their refusals to lack of libido, or them just being "beyond" that, but what if it's really something more serious, something they themselves have not come to terms with? I would wager the refuser is in just as much denial as the refused who thinks everything is great except the sex. I guess I contemplate this because I can't imagine doing what they do to someone they love. Attraction, while can be just physical, it can also be created by how your mind perceives the other. I have to wonder, if there isn't enough there to cause a mental desire, then I believe questioning them(not literally) on how they really feel is worth the time. It's not so much about chasing the "why" as it is helping us come to terms on who we are with. I totally have these same sorts of thoughts, myself. I think about this kind of stuff all the time. For me, one thing that boggles my mind is how my wife seems to not have any desire for a romantic relationship with anyone. It's not like she gives me the vibe that she is secretly pining for someone else. She just seems completely and utterly shut down in the romance / sexual department. It just seems like, to her, that all of that stuff had a purpose... and now that that purpose is realized, the romantic / sexual aspect of life is now done. I just feel as though my wife's picture perfect marriage is a sexless one. I don't think that would change if she married someone else. Now granted, all of this is speculation. If she truly feels that way, she sure as hell wouldn't tell me. I don't blame her for that either. Her and I both know that I'd ask for a divorce if she truly felt that way and was just honest about it. Although, like you mentioned, maybe it IS a denial thing going on with my wife? Maybe she has an underlying desire that is dormant and unable to be expressed because she doesn't feel that way about me? Maybe being with someone else would somehow activate that part of her? I have no idea. When your wife of 35 years tells you she no longer loves you in a romantic way.........well the relationship is over as you know it , love becomes like a brother/sister arrangement , not all bad at all , but the marriage is over. And , I am sure if the right guy or gal came along she would be gone in a New York minute ! |
|
|
|
Post by angryspartan on Jun 9, 2016 21:49:57 GMT -5
I think that avoidant spouses "love" what being married to you brings to their table (financier, social accessory, child minder, etc etc) but it doesn't follow that they particularly love you, the individual. I think this is true in a lot of cases. I've wondered is it me, or is it What was me and the familiarity of the relationship that is loved. |
|
|
|
Post by petrushka on Jun 9, 2016 23:06:22 GMT -5
Thanks petrushka . It was me, and she is definitely doing a good job of making us both feel uncomfortable. I think she is a good therapist. It does feel quite risky because we are both opening up and the therapy is aimed at bringing us closer together and creating stronger emotional ties. If we do that and find we still can't be together in a way that is going to make us both happy then it is going to be much more painful to let it go. You think it will be more painful? I'm the other way: I value clarity above all. Rather than agonizing along, inching along, suffering again and again I want to know where I stand, and then I can make informed decisions and be done with it one way or t'other. Well, done with it if you guys decide to work towards each other is not going to be a quickie, I am sure. But if it turns out that the intentions of both parties are so divergent that compromise looks futile, then you can say "I'll be shot of this" with a clear conscience. It doesn't even have to be consensus in my world. The moment my first wife hissed at me, I got clarity, and that was the end of it for me. (I was walking on clouds for a couple of years after she left, my feet hardly touched the ground, I was so glad to be rid of the constant heartache). |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Jun 10, 2016 5:45:22 GMT -5
So much of this parallels my own experience. W will cuddle, but I dare not reciprocate, and sure as hell better not try anything sensual. I call it a very "arms length" kind of intimacy, always keeping emotional distance. DC You do realize that you will not want to keep up this charade for much longer? Certain things will be said as time goes by that will cut deeply. Arms length will become a football field. A big one for me was the ceremonial meaningless goodby peck every morning. All it took was turning my head and receiving a peck on the cheek twice to end the whole thing. 9500 morning kisses ended by two head turns! Another a-hah moment is realizing how much of it is all a charade. It is there for the children, relatives, neighbors, friends, work associates, etc... And keeps you under her thumb if you let it. |
|
|
|
Post by LITW on Jun 11, 2016 9:46:15 GMT -5
I totally have these same sorts of thoughts, myself. I think about this kind of stuff all the time. For me, one thing that boggles my mind is how my wife seems to not have any desire for a romantic relationship with anyone. It's not like she gives me the vibe that she is secretly pining for someone else. She just seems completely and utterly shut down in the romance / sexual department. It just seems like, to her, that all of that stuff had a purpose... and now that that purpose is realized, the romantic / sexual aspect of life is now done. I just feel as though my wife's picture perfect marriage is a sexless one. I don't think that would change if she married someone else. Now granted, all of this is speculation. If she truly feels that way, she sure as hell wouldn't tell me. I don't blame her for that either. Her and I both know that I'd ask for a divorce if she truly felt that way and was just honest about it. Although, like you mentioned, maybe it IS a denial thing going on with my wife? Maybe she has an underlying desire that is dormant and unable to be expressed because she doesn't feel that way about me? Maybe being with someone else would somehow activate that part of her? I have no idea. Ditto, beeman. I've reached a conclusion that my wife does seem to genuinely love me. Maybe even as much as I love her. But...... she does not express love in a way that's meaningful to me. Conversely, my instinctive expressions of love are received as neutral or negative by her. There is a very fundamental mismatch. Then pile on that she doesn't get pleasure from sex, so she has no desire for it and sees it as an inconvenience. I imagine it's like giving my cat a hug. That's my natural expression, but it means nothing to the cat, and in fact it just wants to escape. And if my cat caught a bird and brought it inside to share with me, well... that may be significant to the cat, but ewww. And, yeah... we're never going to have an honest discussion about this. Perhaps because she isn't introspective enough to see her own motivations, or doesn't want to believe her own lack of desire. But certainly because she realizes the ramifications of admitting things can get no better. I've always hoped that there was an ember there that I just needed to ignite. Or that maybe someone else would be able to. Now I'm pretty sure that was never the case. DC Ditto from me too, Beeman. I loved your cat analogy DC, because my wife hardly reacts when I am affectionate towards her. I think she expects affection from me now (becuase if I don't do it for a while she asks me if something is wrong) but it means nothing to her, or at least it does not inspire her to respond. It seems that for her love and affection are independent ... while for me they are intimately entwined. |
|
|
|
Post by iceman on Jun 20, 2016 14:14:13 GMT -5
I had one of those epiphany moments about this a couple of years ago, after which things made so much more sense. I have no doubt that my wife loves me but she's not in love with me and I really don't think she ever has been. At least it's not my version of what being in love means. When I say she loves me, that too is her own version. She loves the idea of me. She wants me around. I don't think she can articulate why but she does. I provide stability and structure. I provide companionship. I provide childcare. She loves me for all of that and wants nothing to happen to me. But she is not in love with me. Being in love is something I can't really put in words. It's the feeling of desire you have for somebody, physically, sexually, and emotionally. You can't get close enough to them to satisfy your longing, and it's not just the physical attraction though it's a big part of it. You just want to be with them completely. That my wife does not feel. And to be fair I no longer feel that way about her. I did at one point but I don't think she ever did, and it was so frustrating. I tried to figure out what was wrong. Was I doing something wrong? What could I do to help her find the way to me? I was sure she was in love with me. It turns out, as I realize now, it was simple, there was a very basic problem. She was never in love with me. Once I realized that it all made sense and in a strange way it was a relief to know that. It gave me a sense of freedom.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 14:47:56 GMT -5
I agree with some sentiments on here.... she is just not a sexual person. Never masturbates, never shows sexual desire... expects the romantic type love without the dirty sex part.... besides, that's for young attractive people only right?
Is not an intent to hurt on her part, just different expectations...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 20, 2016 14:54:22 GMT -5
I had one of those epiphany moments about this a couple of years ago, after which things made so much more sense. I have no doubt that my wife loves me but she's not in love with me and I really don't think she ever has been. At least it's not my version of what being in love means. When I say she loves me, that too is her own version. She loves the idea of me. She wants me around. I don't think she can articulate why but she does. I provide stability and structure. I provide companionship. I provide childcare. She loves me for all of that and wants nothing to happen to me. But she is not in love with me. Being in love is something I can't really put in words. It's the feeling of desire you have for somebody, physically, sexually, and emotionally. You can't get close enough to them to satisfy your longing, and it's not just the physical attraction though it's a big part of it. You just want to be with them completely. That my wife does not feel. And to be fair I no longer feel that way about her. I did at one point but I don't think she ever did, and it was so frustrating. I tried to figure out what was wrong. Was I doing something wrong? What could I do to help her find the way to me? I was sure she was in love with me. It turns out, as I realize now, it was simple, there was a very basic problem. She was never in love with me. Once I realized that it all made sense and in a strange way it was a relief to know that. It gave me a sense of freedom. Couldn't have said it better, she could not live without me... but what she expects from Nevis not what I want in a relationship... she does a good job of keeping me at arms length.... And yes, now I see her divorced mother starting to appear in her....the attitude that....you're married, and that's it, no more work on her part... and you'd better stay in line....it like she won and now she's basking in the sun without thinking I may leave.... with the shit I put up with.... I would have left if it easy... |
|
And I'm certain, without a doubt, he loves me as a sister and assimilates me as mum.
