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Post by DryCreek on Jul 22, 2022 10:50:28 GMT -5
mike38, if I could offer one piece of advice, it would be to force the awkward communication, push back, and have the argument. Call her bad behavior into the light and force it to be discussed. Stop letting it go unspoken to avoid the conflict - part of the reason she treats you poorly is because you tolerate it, making it acceptable behavior. “I’m not a bad person, and I don’t treat you poorly. But you treat me poorly, despite my efforts. You wouldn’t be so rude to a stranger, and it’s giving our children a horrible example of how people should be treated. They know / hear / see far more than you expect.” “No. We already discussed this and agreed that you would pay a larger share of the children’s soccer expenses because your income is greater. There’s no need to debate this again.” As you have some runway, be mindful of taking the lead in your kids’ activities, events, doctor appointments, school transport, teacher meetings, be the contact person at their school, etc. Not only is your involvement important to them regardless, but it’ll help prevent her from poisoning their opinion of you. You’d be wise to keep a private log of your involvement, as well as your wife’s, for the inevitable custody battle. Also refuse any suggestions that you should move out. Fathers are inherently disadvantaged when it comes to custody, and she sounds like the type to argue that you only deserve visitation (and should pay her child support), when you’re entitled to 50:50 custody and child support from her as the higher wage earner. Heck, on that point, if she’s the higher wage earner, she’s looking at paying you alimony, not the other way around. Depending on your details, the financials and lifestyle impact might be the reason she’s not initiating the divorce. DC
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mike38
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Post by mike38 on Jul 23, 2022 22:36:58 GMT -5
mike38 , if I could offer one piece of advice, it would be to force the awkward communication, push back, and have the argument. Call her bad behavior into the light and force it to be discussed. Stop letting it go unspoken to avoid the conflict - part of the reason she treats you poorly is because you tolerate it, making it acceptable behavior. “I’m not a bad person, and I don’t treat you poorly. But you treat me poorly, despite my efforts. You wouldn’t be so rude to a stranger, and it’s giving our children a horrible example of how people should be treated. They know / hear / see far more than you expect.” “No. We already discussed this and agreed that you would pay a larger share of the children’s soccer expenses because your income is greater. There’s no need to debate this again.” As you have some runway, be mindful of taking the lead in your kids’ activities, events, doctor appointments, school transport, teacher meetings, be the contact person at their school, etc. Not only is your involvement important to them regardless, but it’ll help prevent her from poisoning their opinion of you. You’d be wise to keep a private log of your involvement, as well as your wife’s, for the inevitable custody battle. Also refuse any suggestions that you should move out. Fathers are inherently disadvantaged when it comes to custody, and she sounds like the type to argue that you only deserve visitation (and should pay her child support), when you’re entitled to 50:50 custody and child support from her as the higher wage earner. Heck, on that point, if she’s the higher wage earner, she’s looking at paying you alimony, not the other way around. Depending on your details, the financials and lifestyle impact might be the reason she’s not initiating the divorce. DC Thank you for your response. I'll admit that I can definitely be better at doing that. For a long time I have allowed her to dictate the conversation. I'm the type of person that looks towards resolution - I also work in customer service and that's always how I've been at work as well. The problem with that is then I never get to have my say, which in a lot of cases is legitimate. I think the other thing is that I was always afraid what a blow up would lead to. Now that things are over between us, I'm caring less and less about how I react. I will definitely make it a point to start being more forceful and allowing the argument to happen. As far as taking the lead, I actually already do a lot of that when it comes to the kids. The only time I don't is when I'm working and she is home during the day, as there's not much I can do about that. I coach my son's soccer team, transport my kids to all different activities, and try to be involved with their school as much as I can. I never thought of keeping a log of that, but I may start doing that as you're right that it could help me later. I guess I haven't thought of her paying alimony in that case. My assumption was that I'd be paying child support as I would be seeing the kids less if I'm not living in the same household. I will bring up the points you made with my attorney when I speak with them. I appreciate the heads up with that. Got to say that every day I'm dreaming more and more of being on my own. A sad thing I've noticed is that I can be out doing some mundane errand and just speaking with other adults and having a pleasant conversation now feels amazing. Not that it wasn't nice before, but the constant negativity living with my wife is making me just long for a positivity wherever I can find it. I'm really seeing just how toxic our situation has become. The good news is that while I have my faults, I understand now that it's her that can't see me for who I am. I'm starting to see my self worth more and more, and I realize that I can't allow this to go on forever. Only being 38 year old, there is so much more to life to live than being in this situation. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 24, 2022 17:51:17 GMT -5
mike38, first, kudos for being an involved parent and starting to be more assertive in your own defense. Certainly, the customer service approach to marriage is not the answer here - you invite being walked on by seeking a compromise that pleases the other person, regardless of impact to you (which is much more common in business). Rather, picture yourself on the other side of the counter… you’ve been a loyal customer, this is supposed to be a 2-way street, and you’re getting shitty service in return. Be a vocal customer. I’ll also pickup on a cue that you presume you won’t have custody of the kids. This is flawed from the start, and presumes a failure - don’t do that. You’re an equal parent, not a subordinate. You’re entitled to (and responsible for) 50% joint custody of your kids, not just visiting with them a couple evenings a week. Unless she can clearly show that you’re not an involved parent, she doesn’t magically get primary custody (though this has proven to be an uphill battle for guys). If she is the higher wage earner, child support flows from her to you. Ditto for alimony, though it may not be much depending on the income gap. These would be important topics to get advice from your attorney. Not that you’d have any success making this point to your wife, but the grass is not greener if she stops to think about it. Yes, if she was single there’s an endless supply of guys who would give her attention and fuck her - my gut says her discontent is because this is already happening, even though you don’t find evidence. But very, very few available, compatible, stable guys her age are going to commit to a woman with 2 pre-teen kids and a work schedule that makes sex a chore - they have better options. She would be wise to appreciate that her best prospect is to appreciate the father of her children who still desires her after 13 years together. DC
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 25, 2022 10:13:05 GMT -5
my gut says her discontent is because this is already happening, even though you don’t find evidence. But very, very few available, compatible, stable guys her age are going to commit to a woman with 2 pre-teen kids and a work schedule that makes sex a chore - they have better options. She would be wise to appreciate that her best prospect is to appreciate the father of her children who still desires her after 13 years together. What if she were allowed to find that out? Mrs. mike38 says she wants to stay together for the kids. She's under the delusion that Mike38 has to agree to this. He can divorce her on his schedule. She doesn't like it? They can negotiate. Rather silly of her to announce that he has something she wants: a marriage façade. He can say "No." He can require whatever acts of civility he pleases. He can demand she make some effort at appreciation, up to and including physical, reserving the right to reject "going through the motions". I do not expect her to rise to the occasion of keeping her vows, but one can offer the chance and let her fail. If the divorce proceeds, you need not TELL anyone. Instead of a marriage in name only, it can be a divorce except-in-name. Frankly, I don't much care what city hall has in their file cabinet. Marriages are promises, you can very much be married without paper and stay married when the paper says you aren't. Get the paperwork done, property split, alimony agreed to, future child support established if you end up having to set up a second household because she insists on abusing you. The incentive to keep things civil for the sake of appearances and keeping your divorce secret "for the kids" will be her problem, not yours. You're already courteous and kind. She'll need to learn. Perhaps investigate baza 's post about isthisit 's Binding Financial Agreement: iliasm.org/thread/5015/binding-financial-agreementYou can even keep your rings on, if she says "Please." She asked you to "stay together", she didn't say you had to be married. Sure, babe. We can stay together, no problem. If she wants to stay married, she can act like it. If you divorce on paper, both can pursue better options without fear of adding layers of complication to the legal process that has already occurred. You can calmly, rationally negotiate rules of discretion, when either of you date, if she wants to maintain that marriage charade. She has no say in what her ex-husband does unless he agrees to it. Divorce may make her a much, much better wife. |
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 26, 2022 12:05:54 GMT -5
Really good point, mirrororchid. If his ducks are in a row, mike38 would seem to hold the cards here - she doesn’t seem to want a divorce (or she’d probably have filed, based on the behavior he describes), and he appears to have the financial advantage as well. Genuinely playing the divorce card (and being fully prepared to execute it) might trigger a sharp change in behavior; incurring the expense of filing would demonstrate that it’s not a bluff. As you note, following through legally does not necessarily require changing anything outwardly (living arrangements, etc), though her current attitude makes that seem unlikely. DC |
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mike38
Junior Member
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Post by mike38 on Aug 9, 2022 22:29:05 GMT -5
Mirrororchid and DryCreek - Thank you for your responses. I wanted to give an update as I spoke with my attorney today. Lots of really good information I learned from speaking with them, which also mirrored a lot of what you both stated. My biggest concern was the financial situation if I was to eventually leave my current home. Turns out it's not nearly as bad as I was originally thinking. In fact, like was pointed out, she would likely need to pay alimony or child support as the higher wage earner (though based on my conversation with them, the alimony specifically is difficult to obtain based on whatever agreement we set up). Either way, it will at least be a good negotiating piece to throw out there when the time comes.
As far as keeping the marriage as a charade, my plan is to do that for a time, but eventually I know that I will want to move on. I truly want this to be as mutual as possible, both for the kids' sake as well as financially.
I also brought up the point with my attorney about the 50-50 custody of the kids. They strongly encouraged me to push for that, and when I realized the financial benefit (along with obviously wanting to be with my kids as much as possible), it really opened my eyes. I guess I just never thought of it like that, but I will absolutely push for that now that I know. My attorney even suggested that I take the kids the nights she works, and now knowing that I could potentially afford a decent place, I also won't feel bad as I wouldn't need to cram my kids in a place not suitable for them.
At this point, it's really just a matter of when I pull the trigger. I don't think I'm ready yet to do it, as I really want to research more and get all my ducks in a row. But I have never been as close to divorce as I am now. I'm feeling more empowered about the situation, and realize now that I hold a lot of the cards if I play it right. It's a much more uplifting feeling knowing that there are certain things she can't take from me, and that I deserve. I only fear how she will react, and the lengths at which she will go to get what she wants. I'm afraid that it could get ugly, but I guess there is only so much I can control with that.
I will continue to update you all on my situation as it develops. I really appreciate all of the advice I've received here - it's really helped me work through a lot of this situation.
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 10, 2022 1:33:12 GMT -5
mike38, thanks for the follow-up. Good that you consulted with a local attorney. The details are different everywhere, even if the themes are common. On your to-do list, see if moving out of the house disadvantages you with custody; there’s a good chance it will, because it’d establish a pattern of being absentee, because she won’t agree to let the kids stay with you. So, expect that you’ll need to live under the same roof until custody is settled. DC
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Post by angeleyes65 on Aug 14, 2022 9:45:46 GMT -5
mike38 sorry for your situation. I was going to say what you discovered from the lawyer. They figure out how much they think it takes to raise a child and each have a percentage based on income so she would likely owe you Also if you do fifty/fifty custody she may still owe you a little bit On another thing that stood out to me if you are still trying to fix it. You said you tried to help her with house and kids. The house and kids are both peoples reasonability so or more accurate statement might be you stepped up and took on a larger part of house and child responsibilities. Also the money. Had the same issue with my ex. I made less at some points I was a stay at home mom but I still handled the bills. He resented being told what he could and couldn't spend. I had a budget on paper and I showed what we had coming in and going out monthly what was "extra" for savings and fun stuff and how much he had spent so far and how we needed to pick which Bill to pay late because we didn't have the money anymore. That helped fixed that issue
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mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Dec 5, 2022 23:00:47 GMT -5
Hey everyone, just wanted to update you all with how things are going as it's been a while. A few weeks after my last post I was in a pretty bad car accident with another car (thank goodness no injuries). My car was totaled, and I had all of my kids in the car. Really shook me up, and thankfully my kids were fine and didn't have any lasting effects from it. Mentally it took a toll for a few weeks after it, and had to buy another car, so that took up a lot of my time for a while.
As far as my marriage, it has continued to deteriorate. Didn't even ask me about the accident - she really couldn't have cared less. I have become more and more miserable with my wife around, and the co-parenting just has not been working. She wants more and more control over every day life, and continuing to live with her has become unbearable.
Yesterday, she sent me a text stating that she was coming home from work with groceries and that I'd better have any breakfast mess cleaned up before she got home. I responded with some smart ass remark that it's my bad that I want to make breakfast for me and the kids. A little while after she came home and when the kids were outside, she said that she wants to separate and that she can't stand me anymore. I honestly didn't expect that she would be the one to say it, and it took me a bit by surprise. I didn't say anything right away since the kids were around, but this morning after they went to school, I asked her what her plans were and if she would be getting an attorney. She blew up at me and said no, and that she can't afford an attorney. Which, btw is ridiculous considering how much money she makes, but spends a TON of money on our kids and doesn't budget at all. I tried speaking again and then she said "Get out of my f***ing face, I hate you." Well, at least she's finally just saying what she's been implying for so long.
After that I'm just done. Been contacting different attorneys and starting the process. Frankly don't care if she can't afford one or not, she's the one that brought it up! Stunned that it seems like she has absolutely no plan and just acted on emotion. The one thing I've been and will try to continue to be is as calm and collected as possible. I feel like I'm the adult in the situation and she is the one unhinged. I really just fear how she is going to act the further along this gets. It's sad that we can't just act civil and get through this. I can accept that we no longer love each other. While it's obviously upsetting, things happen and people change. But the way she has and continues to act towards me is just so over the top. I never cheated on her, never hurt her, and always listened and cared, so her actions are so unwarranted. Of course I have my faults, and I'm sure I drive her nuts, but it's hard to believe how much hate she has built up to me. Even after all of this I don't hate her, I just can't deal with this anymore.
So it'll be a tough time for a while, but I know I'll get through it. Will hopefully update again sooner than last time. Hope all is well.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Dec 5, 2022 23:16:51 GMT -5
Wishing you the best of luck going forward. Stay strong it is so worth it when you are out and feel the calm settle around you
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Dec 6, 2022 12:56:01 GMT -5
Oh man. Its disheartening to hear about the accident. Glad to hear everyone's ok. Talk to a lawyer. Put a plan together. Build a support network around you. Friends, therapist, community. It doesn't sound like you will get cooperation from her. But you can try. Just give yourself a limit. You are not her therapist. So you dont have to put up with her bad behavior. Thats a boundary you will need to enforce over and over. Decide how much interaction you want to have as you work through your process. Hey everyone, just wanted to update you all with how things are going as it's been a while. A few weeks after my last post I was in a pretty bad car accident with another car (thank goodness no injuries). My car was totaled, and I had all of my kids in the car. Really shook me up, and thankfully my kids were fine and didn't have any lasting effects from it. Mentally it took a toll for a few weeks after it, and had to buy another car, so that took up a lot of my time for a while. As far as my marriage, it has continued to deteriorate. Didn't even ask me about the accident - she really couldn't have cared less. I have become more and more miserable with my wife around, and the co-parenting just has not been working. She wants more and more control over every day life, and continuing to live with her has become unbearable. Yesterday, she sent me a text stating that she was coming home from work with groceries and that I'd better have any breakfast mess cleaned up before she got home. I responded with some smart ass remark that it's my bad that I want to make breakfast for me and the kids. A little while after she came home and when the kids were outside, she said that she wants to separate and that she can't stand me anymore. I honestly didn't expect that she would be the one to say it, and it took me a bit by surprise. I didn't say anything right away since the kids were around, but this morning after they went to school, I asked her what her plans were and if she would be getting an attorney. She blew up at me and said no, and that she can't afford an attorney. Which, btw is ridiculous considering how much money she makes, but spends a TON of money on our kids and doesn't budget at all. I tried speaking again and then she said "Get out of my f***ing face, I hate you." Well, at least she's finally just saying what she's been implying for so long. After that I'm just done. Been contacting different attorneys and starting the process. Frankly don't care if she can't afford one or not, she's the one that brought it up! Stunned that it seems like she has absolutely no plan and just acted on emotion. The one thing I've been and will try to continue to be is as calm and collected as possible. I feel like I'm the adult in the situation and she is the one unhinged. I really just fear how she is going to act the further along this gets. It's sad that we can't just act civil and get through this. I can accept that we no longer love each other. While it's obviously upsetting, things happen and people change. But the way she has and continues to act towards me is just so over the top. I never cheated on her, never hurt her, and always listened and cared, so her actions are so unwarranted. Of course I have my faults, and I'm sure I drive her nuts, but it's hard to believe how much hate she has built up to me. Even after all of this I don't hate her, I just can't deal with this anymore. So it'll be a tough time for a while, but I know I'll get through it. Will hopefully update again sooner than last time. Hope all is well. |
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 6, 2022 13:29:23 GMT -5
"Yesterday, she sent me a text stating that she was coming home from work with groceries and that I'd better have any breakfast mess cleaned up before she got home. I responded with some smart ass remark that it's my bad that I want to make breakfast for me and the kids. A little while after she came home and when the kids were outside, she said that she wants to separate and that she can't stand me anymore. I honestly didn't expect that she would be the one to say it, and it took me a bit by surprise. I didn't say anything right away since the kids were around, but this morning after they went to school, I asked her what her plans were and if she would be getting an attorney. She blew up at me and said no, and that she can't afford an attorney. Which, btw is ridiculous considering how much money she makes, but spends a TON of money on our kids and doesn't budget at all. I tried speaking again and then she said "Get out of my f***ing face, I hate you." Well, at least she's finally just saying what she's been implying for so long.""
Realize that you have the power here. She probably just spouted off thinking that would make you bow to her wishes about doing what she says in your shared household. However, things in your household now are so bad that you might as well proceed with divorce as things have deteriorated so much.
I strongly suggest that you also invest in a therapist for yourself as, given how your wife behaves, you'll likely need that support so as to be able navigate the process as smoothly as possible and without involving your kids in the drama your wife is likely to try to stir up. More than likely she'll blame you for the divorce, and may even tell the kids that. I hope she doesn't wreck the kids' holiday season. Maybe appealing that way to her will help her act more courteously to you for the next few weeks.
I'm betting that what will happen will also serve as a warning to folks here to not shred their own cred by threatening divorce if they don't mean it and don't have their ducks in a row. You, however, are in good shape. Wishing you the best!
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Post by h on Dec 8, 2022 16:01:30 GMT -5
Another thing, considering she treats you so poorly. Your kids have likely seen this and you should probably find a therapist for them too. Maybe a family therapist you can go to as a group. It's unlikely that your wife will go with you but she doesn't have to anyway.
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