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Post by baza on Feb 25, 2022 0:56:02 GMT -5
All these things you are doing (fitness, hobbies, healthy eating, changing your thinking etc) are great ideas in and of themselves.
Sorting out ones own shit is always a good idea.
Incrementally you will be heading to a place where you'll be presenting as a self assured and interesting sort of bloke in good shape and your shit sorted out.
That will be a pretty attractive persona you'd be projecting.
It's hard to see any downside in that.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 25, 2022 5:34:26 GMT -5
... I've really tried to shift to a mindset of just caring for myself more and sort of disengaging with the marriage. It's honestly taken so much out of me for too long. When I read your post it really got me thinking about my health too. I've been someone that was a runner for years, even ran many half-marathon's and a few marathons and was very much in shape. Over the last 2-3 years, the marriage (along with the pandemic) has just made me completely unmotivated to do much of anything. I've gained a good amount of weight, to the point where it's really affecting my mood and overall well-being. I've told myself this week that I totally need to change my thinking and just get back into it again. I've ran a couple of times for the first time in a couple of months this week and it felt great. Going to also crack down on my diet and just put a lot of focus on my body's needs and staying healthy. I'm also really getting into all of my hobbies and just doing the things that make me happy. Really trying to engage even more with my kids, and cherishing the time I have with them. I'm also trying to not let my wife affect what I do - I want to live more free in a sense, and not be weighed down by what she thinks of it. I have thought about the complaining too, and I agree with you that it's just not worth it. Better just to let it go and focus what I need to focus on. In some ways it's very liberating.
...I completely hear you with the working separate shifts. It totally sucks. It makes you feel like you are living two different lives, even if things are ok in the marriage. At least for me (as I'm sure my wife as well), you start to internalize things more and start to think that your spouse just doesn't understand what you're going through. Because to be honest, you really don't. I also hear you with the difference in libidos. There is always going to be that major void in your life without it, even if the rest of the marriage is going ok. The lack of interest though is the killer. It's one thing if there is a major difference in libido, it's another completely if there is no desire to change it, even slightly. That's where I've felt so defeated in our marriage. Like, if she would just show that she cares, that there is any form of love, things would be at least tolerable. Unfortunately for me, I think that ship has sailed. It doesn't sound like it, but hoping things get at least somewhat better for you. Apocrypha's research saying that cheating women dial aggression up to 11 makes me think about those separate shifts. Co-workers who share eight hours a day when your husband is working when you're free? That is some ripe ground. Did she succumb? Hates herself and projects fantastic flaws on you in defense, consciously or not? Or did she fall under the delusion she could have done better than you and has no gratitude for how well she did (even despite sharing parenthood.) It boggles my mind and maybe yours, if so. Does that happen? With dating, you don't get to see the bad side. With NRE, sex just happens, the pheremones provide rose colored glasses and lovers are on best behavior. That can grossly distort reality of one's other lovers, smearing those glasses with vaseline. He's so sexy, so easily, so obviously, while you have to persuade and harass. She looks upon you like some dance club snob sneering at would be suitors "out of their league". All this just spun fantasies. "Why chasing". It's not productive. So much better that you're laser focused on the good stuff. Very good plans, divorce or not. Co-habitation with an ex may make financial sense and keep both parents accessible, but "free". Opening the marriage may have similar effects, though one must always warn that one partner may enjoy much better success and that can be emotionally difficult, to understate the matter. Divorce can be the same though-an ex marrying within a year and you've hardly dated. The opening of the marriage would be all the more possible if the detachment goes well and you find a harmonic dance of co-parenting going on with your self-distraction having removed the romantic pressure. Final note: such self-improvement efforts have been repeatedly reported to trigger great suspicion of intentions to divorce or planning an affair (already having one?) Be wary of seeing this as an opening to resume your warm relations. Stay focused. If such relations are to resume, they are a result of your redirection of effort. This may be related to breaking co-dependency which can be stifling and an unseen prison. Putting things back the way they were can quickly resume the toxic dynamic. Counterintuitively, being self-centered can be attractive. (I have a lot going on, but we'll get together when I have time.) No games. Just creating a reality where that's true. If you're increasingly unavailable, that's because that is the only life course that will work. Staying true to that and not getting sucked back into thankless servitude offers dignity and purpose, even if it is sometimes ungenerous. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Feb 25, 2022 6:51:56 GMT -5
This ^^^. (doing my part to put spam on the back page, since 'administration' is non existent)
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Feb 25, 2022 8:57:07 GMT -5
Like baza alluded to, self care and sorting your shit out offer a tremendous return on the time invested. So I encourage you to continue down this path, and avoid complacency by looking for ways to become better at it. That of course is subjective, but its a way of saying don't stop figuring out what works best for you. In addition to encouragement, the other thing I might offer is in my experience, disengagement manifests in two forms, emotional detachment and attention withdrawl. I have found that withdrawing attention is a more mindful, deliberate act while emotional detachment requires some time and is somewhat involuntary. YMMV. Either way, the disengagement will most likely trigger a response, either a physical or emotional reset. It is up to you to decide if you want to take her up on it. I personally would advise caution on any reaction you might trigger from your partner. A reset might set you back on personal progress but more importantly, these reactions are most likely counterproductive to any relationship building. I would be so bold to say that a reaction to relationship withdrawal is instinctive and is more likely an attempt to reclaim some power in the relationship dynamic. Another scenario is that there is no reaction at all. This apathy would be a strong signal that she has long disengaged and emotionally detached herself. Good luck and keep writing and posting. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 27, 2022 13:37:30 GMT -5
That's an interesting point you make regarding how I'm viewing this. I think what may be clouding my judgement is the nostalgia, just how things used to be with us. Up until a few years ago, we were completely different together. She was never one to be overly intimate, but we would always find time for intimacy and just spending time together. I think it's partly denial that things have changed completely, even though deep down I know that's not coming back. I guess the only place I disagree is about marriage in general. To me, I never envisioned my wife as perfect - there are always going to be things that drive us crazy with each other. But at the end of the day, I've always tried to love my wife and compromise. I've held a lot in over the last few years because I've wanted the marriage to work. I believe in saving the marriage, even if there are certain things we've endured with each other. I feel like for her, she's basically given up on us and she has allowed herself to treat me how she wants to. She's not even trying to love me again. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm at least owed that. Now, maybe in her eyes she has tried and I haven't responded the way she wanted me to. Fine, fair enough. But I also feel owed to have a discussion about it, regardless of where that takes us. While I completely hear your point about looking at it as a non-married relationship, it's very hard to remove the past memories to look at it objectively. Though maybe I need to start trying to do that. I know that things will very likely change, and every day I'm trying to prepare myself more and more for a split. While I already have some thoughts on it in the broader sense, I need to start looking at it in more detail. How exactly will my financial situation look? Do I need to make some changes now with my money? Who can I lean on in my family or my friends? What support do I have? Where can I rent an apartment? And so on and so on. While it would be good to get away by myself to think about all of this and more, it's just so difficult with the kids. Though, I am planning a long weekend soon that's more of a staycation without my wife and the kids for most of the days, so that's something at least. Working on shifting your perceptual framework here, to something that likely fits the way your wife looks at it. Surely, you dated other women prior to your marriage. If it goes a different way, you will surely be in a position to date other women after your marriage. The fundamentals of a romantic relationship still hold true in either case/ 1. Cosmic justice doesn't matter in romance. In the romantic world, what's fair, and what you are rightfully owned based on how hard you work, whatever gestures you do, however sincere and deserving you are, whatever you have endured in the name of love -- none of that matters AT ALL if your partner doesn't see you that way. It just doesn't. It isn't fair, I know. Most people in the single world come to realize this. When that happens, you break up. I had a gf break up with me at 4 months because she thought I was cheating. I loved her, and was not cheating at all. When confronted with evidence and perfectly reasonable and true explanations for what she assumed to be cheating, she fell back on Plan B, which was that the fact that she FELT like I was cheating already tripped whatever threshold she was feeling - and felt I was more invested elsewhere than with her. What was true enough for her was that she, for her own reasons (whether true or not) felt like she didn't want to be with me, and I had just fallen in love with her. We broke up on the phone on a Monday morning call just before work, with a bullshit reason cited, out of the blue after having had a really nice and intimate weekend. It wasn't fair but that's the norm in the dating world, and having had a wedding doesn't make you immune to that in the married world. 2. You are in the same marriage as her. At the moment, you are spinning your wheels trying so hard to excuse and understand her intentional distancing from you. There are many griping griefs - nobody is perfect and nobody is a total picnic. But - consider that you are still in the same marriage as her, and your intention is to move closer while hers seems to be to flee. You are looking to the marriage as a potential ore for fulfilment, but her behaviour indicates she finds it to be a depletive experience. These trajectories do not intersect - there is no "marriage" of intention here, except your intentions to endure this mismatch. Yours is to change the fundamental mismatch and fix the hole in your gas tank. Hers is to simply survive a marriage to someone she doesn't feel the same way about. 3. Think of someone - ANYONE - who you have ever held in so much open contempt, for so long. Do you even have someone that reaches that level of contempt - who you would you work that hard to disrespect? Now, try to imagine the amount of work it would take simply to get to baseline zero/neutral with that person - where the feeling you have about them is as benign and blank as a person you speak to on the street, or with whom you transact in a retail situation. Just to drop the baggage, it's an enormous effort, and that requires will on both parts. But to go from there to a lover? A spouse? How is that going to happen. Imagine a post marriage world or a pre-marriage world, and your partner of a couple months treats you the way you are treated, or you feel the way you do. What would you do about that? Would you even hesitate? 4. If you know she's actively resisting your work to get closer, if you are the only one carrying a torch, how does that work in a marriage? When I was asked by family members and others how or why my marriage ended, I summed it with this sentence: "It became very difficult to be married to a woman who is single." I don't know if it was a satisfying answer, but it was as true an answer to my own situation as I could muster - and any thread of that sentence pulled, would turn into a practical example of a woman married, who acted as if not married. I'll share an "aha!" moment from therapy with a social worker who I did not generally find all that smart or helpful, but at least she helped speed me to some realizations. We were discussing the marriage in terms of a metaphor of holding onto a rope, with the marriage itself dangling from it over a cliff. I was clinging to this rope and the weight of it was dragging me closer to the cliff edge. She had "dropped the rope" - and it was up to me to have the hope and desire needed to indicate to both of us that there was any marriage at all. If neither of us believed in it then how would she ever find her way back? Counselor asked me, "What would happen if you dropped the rope?" I snap responded, "The marriage would cease to exist - neither of us would then believe it. Without the belief and the trajectory to set an intention, then what's left of the marriage?" We moved on in the conversation, but I kept picking at that exchange and my instinctive response. A few hours later the lightbulb turned on and I could see what I think she was leading me to look at without saying it. It took me a couple hours to expand that to consider that the marriage doesn't exist even if only one partner is holding on. A marriage is between TWO people; one cannot hold the marriage. She was not in this marriage, and as such - we didn't have one. It didn't matter that I was holding place. That only works if someone is invested and has chosen to be in it. |
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Post by rejected101 on Mar 1, 2022 20:36:30 GMT -5
Hi everyone, just a forewarning that this will be a LONG post. I just turned 38 years old and have been married to my wife for over 13 years. We have 3 kids (ages 11, 9, and 7), and up until a few years ago, our marriage was actually great. We were always there for each other and we were intimate with each other fairly regularly. I feel like the first sign of trouble in our marriage was when my wife asked me if I wanted to have a 4th child. This was about 5 years ago. I had already told her that the 3rd would be the last as logistically it would be difficult raising any more than 3 as financially it would be tough. Once I told her no, I noticed she started to become more distant and we were intimate less and less with each other. While frustrating, I never ever thought that our marriage was in trouble, and I always made sure to communicate my feelings to her and she would to me as well. About 3 1/2 years ago, she switched to working the night shift (she is a nurse). While this helped us financially, it started to take a toll on our relationship. She started to become burnt out and began taking out her anger at me for everything. I tried to be patient as I understood her lack of sleep, so I wanted to help around the house and with the kids wherever I could. I spoke with her on multiple occasions if she should switch shifts, and she would get angry and said I was being selfish as it would take her away from seeing the kids. Fast forward to about 2 years ago. Things were still rocky between us, and the sex had dropped to maybe 5-10 times over the prior year. I had gotten very upset over this, which she responded to by planning a mini vacation and initiated sex with me (which was very rare). I had thought that maybe we were turning a corner and things would get better. We had sex one time right before the pandemic started, and once it hit March 2020 all of my kids went to remote learning for school due to Covid. This really put an extra strain on her, as she needed to stay up with the kids for school after working the night shift. I tried to help where I could, but it was difficult as I worked from home in my office. On rough weeks for her at work, I would take time off to help her and my MIL who would sometimes come to help. The sex at this point dropped off a cliff. We ended up going the whole rest of the year without sex. About a year ago, we got into a huge fight about it. While I was trying to be patient, it was getting to be too much. When I pushed her on the fact that not only have we not had sex in a year, she barely would touch me. She lashed back out at me and complained about never getting enough sleep. What ticked me off about it (and still does), is that she's perfectly loving to everyone else in our family, including our kids, her mom, the neighbors, hell even the pets. Basically everyone but me. If she was that tired, so wouldn't be that nice to anybody. She essentially dismissed all of my complaints and made me focus on her. Foolishly I tried even harder to be there for her without pressing my issues with the marriage. More months would go by and by June of last year, we got into another really heated argument, this time about money. I had told her how much money we had until our next payday, and she brushed it off and ignored me. She ended up spending all of our money within a few days, so I got mad and said you can't spend anything else. Then she got mad and said that we should have separate accounts so that we could spend our own money. I took this as a first sign of things to come, because we always looked at it as our money in the past. When my youngest daughter started telling me of all the things my wife wanted to do with her that week (get their nails painted, go to the zoo, etc.), I really got upset and blew up at my wife. I felt like she was completely ignoring me and she started using the fact that she makes more money than me as a reason I shouldn't be able to tell her anything. While I apologized about the way I went about it, I told her I was upset because she's not listening to me about spending money. She again ignored me and from that point forward, she stopped the little amount of kissing and hugging she was giving me. Over the next few months, things were tough. At times she wouldn't even talk to me, so I would have to write letters to get across what I wanted to say. After she read the letters, I was expecting it to start a conversation. They never did. Then I had noticed that she wasn't wearing her wedding ring anymore as she had put it away. This got me thinking that maybe she was cheating on me. I know you shouldn't do this, but I began looking through her text messages, but couldn't find anything. Either way, I knew things were really going south with us and that it was becoming serious. About a few months ago, I kind of just let the whole thing go with trying to get any intimacy with her as it just became exhausting to try. I wanted to just try to take baby steps in repairing our marriage, but soon realized that it was likely not coming back. While we were still talking with each other and at least being cordial recently, I just about had it a few days ago on my birthday. I thought she might at least care enough to be nicer than usual. Not only did she not even say happy birthday to me the entire day, but when I tried to kiss her after the kids gave me her present, she turned away and wanted nothing to do with me. I was honestly ready to walk out the door if not for my kids being there. The next day after the kids went to school, I asked if we can talk and she just said "No." I stormed out of the room and just felt like giving up on us. The one thing I never imagined happening is that she would completely stop trying when it came to our relationship. It's like she totally checked out and doesn't want to even try. At this point, I just feel so trapped. Any last denial I had left of her loving me is now gone. She clearly doesn't care about our marriage anymore, and no longer loves me. That's a really hard thing to get over after everything that we have been through as a couple. For so long I have been sad and upset over this, but now I'm just filled with anger. There is nothing that I have done to deserve this. I have never cheated on her, never abused her, or did anything so egregious to warrant her actions. To be fair, I'm not perfect and there are plenty of things that I can see would make her very frustrated with me, but there is never a time that I stopped loving her, and would always help her in any way. I haven't spoken with her since my birthday, and don't plan on it, especially since she doesn't want to speak to me. We're basically just co-existing in our house. Now I'm not even sleeping in the same bed as her. I've really contemplated things, and while my emotional side wants to gather all my things and leave, the rational side of me is making me stay. I know that my financial situation would be very rough with child support of 3 kids in my state (though I plan on seeing an attorney for the specifics). I also know that I wouldn't get to see my kids that often. That to me is a deal breaker. I love my kids so much, and not being able to see them that often would honestly break my heart. I also have hobbies that I enjoy that I wouldn't be able to do if I were to leave due to finances (though that is not quite as important). It pains me so much because the lack of intimacy (now going on 2 years without any sex) has created a gigantic void in my life that I believe will not return with my wife. The complete lack of communication that we have as well is extremely frustrating as I feel like I can't talk to anyone about my situation. I know that I could get counseling (I've tried to convince her of marriage counseling, but like everything else she ignored it), but I don't know what I would get out of it other than having someone to vent to. I'm not really looking for any advice (though anyone still reading can provide it if you want to), but just need an avenue to type everything out. At this point, I don't feel like doing anything for her, and if she ultimately wants me to leave, then so be it. I'm just so angry because I don't know why she is doing this to us. I don't understand what I've done to make her not care this much. If I had to guess though, I really think we've just gone different ways. I feel like she is extremely angry and jealous that I get to work from home while she is working nights at a hospital. If I try to help her, she is constantly negative telling me how what I've done is not to her liking and will just do it herself anyway. She works hard for the sake of working hard. While I believe in working hard, I also believe that you should have balance in your life and strive to do things you want to do. I think that also makes her very angry as she sees me not suffering as much as she is. To be clear, that's not to mean I don't want to help her, far from it. If she let me help her and reciprocated that to me and was more positive, I would continue helping her. Instead, she continues to focus on the negative with me 100% of the time. It makes me want to ignore her concerns because she doesn't even want to address mine. I shouldn't be punished because she is the way she is. And the thing is, I'm not asking her to change who she is. I'm just asking to compromise with realistic expectations. Instead, all she wants me to do is help her and she feels like she doesn't have to give anything back to me. For now, I feel like I don't have any good choices, but that the best one for me is to stay for now. I've been trying to focus on my kids and my hobbies as a way to keep me going, but inevitably I keep falling back into a depressed state as I miss the warm touch of a women's body next to mine. I miss kissing and hugging and the feeling of someone truly loving me. Right now I'm just left with hate and disgust and am reminded of it every day. The sad thing is, I feel less stressed and anxious when she's not there. Porn helps from time to time, but that is only good up to a point. It's the love I miss even more than the sex. For the first time in our marriage I dream about being with another woman and just having them care about me. Ask me how my day was. Want to watch a movie with me. Care about our dreams and goals in life. None of which I get from my wife ever. It's not fair to have to live like this. Anyways, I feel like I've wrote enough. Thank you to anyone that read through this and I wish the best to anyone else in a similar situation. Ok….this is a real heartbreaking story. You’ve identified you are not perfect and that generally signals someone who is at least honest and humble enough to put themselves on show, negatives as well as positives. So stress and fatigue are two of the biggest libido killers going. Are they rational explanations? Well it sounds like she is stressed ✅ And it sounds like she is fatigued ✅ That said, I’ll bet my mortgage that she finds the energy and the calmness to have sex with herself. In short, her sexual appetite has been removed from you and she is no longer sharing it. In many settings I would never openly admit my opinion with regards to this but personally I would hunt down any sex toys and keep a firm track of their movements. Is that intrusive (much like looking through her phone)? Yes it is. Do you as her husband have the right to know if something or someone else is being chosen over you and thus explore the idea of making an informed decision? Yes you absolutely do in my opinion because invariably, if you just ask the question outright….are you fucking someone else? Are you fucking yourself? You will be subjected to a dishonest answer or one that makes you feel like the bad guy for asking. Alarmingly she has removed her wedding ring and restricted your ability to have a conversation altogether. The latter is a killer of any relationship as you can’t even identify as friends. You love your kids which is great and it would hurt not to see them as much and these are all factors I understand very very well. But what does it do seeing them in such a depressed mode all the time? What do they learn in terms of what a relationship looks like? These are questions you must factor in as they are likely hearing mummy and daddy argue, never seeing mummy and daddy happy together and mummy and daddy don’t even really talk. There’s some big choices to make here but ensure you don’t become the victim of not choosing you as well as others. It gets you nowhere. |
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mike38
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Post by mike38 on Mar 7, 2022 0:03:17 GMT -5
That's an interesting point you make regarding how I'm viewing this. I think what may be clouding my judgement is the nostalgia, just how things used to be with us. Up until a few years ago, we were completely different together. She was never one to be overly intimate, but we would always find time for intimacy and just spending time together. I think it's partly denial that things have changed completely, even though deep down I know that's not coming back. I guess the only place I disagree is about marriage in general. To me, I never envisioned my wife as perfect - there are always going to be things that drive us crazy with each other. But at the end of the day, I've always tried to love my wife and compromise. I've held a lot in over the last few years because I've wanted the marriage to work. I believe in saving the marriage, even if there are certain things we've endured with each other. I feel like for her, she's basically given up on us and she has allowed herself to treat me how she wants to. She's not even trying to love me again. Maybe it's just me, but I feel like I'm at least owed that. Now, maybe in her eyes she has tried and I haven't responded the way she wanted me to. Fine, fair enough. But I also feel owed to have a discussion about it, regardless of where that takes us. While I completely hear your point about looking at it as a non-married relationship, it's very hard to remove the past memories to look at it objectively. Though maybe I need to start trying to do that. I know that things will very likely change, and every day I'm trying to prepare myself more and more for a split. While I already have some thoughts on it in the broader sense, I need to start looking at it in more detail. How exactly will my financial situation look? Do I need to make some changes now with my money? Who can I lean on in my family or my friends? What support do I have? Where can I rent an apartment? And so on and so on. While it would be good to get away by myself to think about all of this and more, it's just so difficult with the kids. Though, I am planning a long weekend soon that's more of a staycation without my wife and the kids for most of the days, so that's something at least. Working on shifting your perceptual framework here, to something that likely fits the way your wife looks at it. Surely, you dated other women prior to your marriage. If it goes a different way, you will surely be in a position to date other women after your marriage. The fundamentals of a romantic relationship still hold true in either case/ 1. Cosmic justice doesn't matter in romance. In the romantic world, what's fair, and what you are rightfully owned based on how hard you work, whatever gestures you do, however sincere and deserving you are, whatever you have endured in the name of love -- none of that matters AT ALL if your partner doesn't see you that way. It just doesn't. It isn't fair, I know. Most people in the single world come to realize this. When that happens, you break up. I had a gf break up with me at 4 months because she thought I was cheating. I loved her, and was not cheating at all. When confronted with evidence and perfectly reasonable and true explanations for what she assumed to be cheating, she fell back on Plan B, which was that the fact that she FELT like I was cheating already tripped whatever threshold she was feeling - and felt I was more invested elsewhere than with her. What was true enough for her was that she, for her own reasons (whether true or not) felt like she didn't want to be with me, and I had just fallen in love with her. We broke up on the phone on a Monday morning call just before work, with a bullshit reason cited, out of the blue after having had a really nice and intimate weekend. It wasn't fair but that's the norm in the dating world, and having had a wedding doesn't make you immune to that in the married world. 2. You are in the same marriage as her. At the moment, you are spinning your wheels trying so hard to excuse and understand her intentional distancing from you. There are many griping griefs - nobody is perfect and nobody is a total picnic. But - consider that you are still in the same marriage as her, and your intention is to move closer while hers seems to be to flee. You are looking to the marriage as a potential ore for fulfilment, but her behaviour indicates she finds it to be a depletive experience. These trajectories do not intersect - there is no "marriage" of intention here, except your intentions to endure this mismatch. Yours is to change the fundamental mismatch and fix the hole in your gas tank. Hers is to simply survive a marriage to someone she doesn't feel the same way about. 3. Think of someone - ANYONE - who you have ever held in so much open contempt, for so long. Do you even have someone that reaches that level of contempt - who you would you work that hard to disrespect? Now, try to imagine the amount of work it would take simply to get to baseline zero/neutral with that person - where the feeling you have about them is as benign and blank as a person you speak to on the street, or with whom you transact in a retail situation. Just to drop the baggage, it's an enormous effort, and that requires will on both parts. But to go from there to a lover? A spouse? How is that going to happen. Imagine a post marriage world or a pre-marriage world, and your partner of a couple months treats you the way you are treated, or you feel the way you do. What would you do about that? Would you even hesitate? 4. If you know she's actively resisting your work to get closer, if you are the only one carrying a torch, how does that work in a marriage? When I was asked by family members and others how or why my marriage ended, I summed it with this sentence: "It became very difficult to be married to a woman who is single." I don't know if it was a satisfying answer, but it was as true an answer to my own situation as I could muster - and any thread of that sentence pulled, would turn into a practical example of a woman married, who acted as if not married. I'll share an "aha!" moment from therapy with a social worker who I did not generally find all that smart or helpful, but at least she helped speed me to some realizations. We were discussing the marriage in terms of a metaphor of holding onto a rope, with the marriage itself dangling from it over a cliff. I was clinging to this rope and the weight of it was dragging me closer to the cliff edge. She had "dropped the rope" - and it was up to me to have the hope and desire needed to indicate to both of us that there was any marriage at all. If neither of us believed in it then how would she ever find her way back? Counselor asked me, "What would happen if you dropped the rope?" I snap responded, "The marriage would cease to exist - neither of us would then believe it. Without the belief and the trajectory to set an intention, then what's left of the marriage?" We moved on in the conversation, but I kept picking at that exchange and my instinctive response. A few hours later the lightbulb turned on and I could see what I think she was leading me to look at without saying it. It took me a couple hours to expand that to consider that the marriage doesn't exist even if only one partner is holding on. A marriage is between TWO people; one cannot hold the marriage. She was not in this marriage, and as such - we didn't have one. It didn't matter that I was holding place. That only works if someone is invested and has chosen to be in it. I appreciate you making me look at this from another angle. The quote you had about how your marriage ended, "It became very difficult to be married to a woman who is single," that really struck a chord. It's totally where we're at right now, basically just living two separate lives within the same household. The metaphor about the rope also got me thinking about how much time and effort I'm trying to put into the marriage, when I'm the only one trying. I'm to the point now where I'm just basically done with it myself, because really is there even a marriage? It's correct, like what am I holding onto? I guess I've known this deep down but sometimes I just try to convince myself that by doing X or trying Y, it'll trigger something and there will be some kind of spark. But it never happens, mainly because she has absolutely no interest. I think the other thing was because she's always exhausted from her work, that I always gave her a pass as if that was the real culprit. But at the end of the day, if you even remotely love your spouse, you wouldn't do half of the things she does on a daily basis. So an update - last weekend out of the blue she asks me if we can sit down and talk about the finances. Now, I've been wanting to speak about it for many months, so I said fine. We sit down and she wanted to open up her own account and for us to use are own money and split the bills. I kind of figured this was coming, and it's just another indication that everything is going south with us. I figured that it's best I get used to using only my own money now because that's how it will be if we split. What got me though was I mentioned the credit card debt to her, she got fairly upset as she didn't know how bad it had gotten (about $6k-7k) even though I've tried talking to her about it multiple times. I told her this, and she kept denying that it had anything to do with her and that I must have spent most of the money on them (which is a lie). I told that while I have spent some money, she has also spent a lot of it and that we could go through the statements and I could show her, and she just kept deflecting to get out of the conversation. I'm just not even surprised anymore, it's like she's completely incapable of taking blame for anything. No lie, I don't think I've heard her say "I'm sorry" for at least 2 years. For anything. It's like she works backwards from her conclusion, which is that I'm by default wrong and dumb, so she does mental gymnastics to make her thought correct. It's just exhausting dealing with that. Since then, nothing else has really changed, but I will say that it's surprisingly been nice to just budget my own money instead of our money. We split up the bills, and I will at least say that we did it pretty fairly. Only thing that sucks is that I can't see at all what she is spending her money on, which makes me leery. Basically, I'm just continuing to prepare for us to split. I'm not ready to do this myself, but it just feels like eventually, this is going to be the inevitable conclusion. Like I said in my previous posts, just trying to stay busy and focus on myself. Getting back into my running for the past 2 weeks has been a big help. The time to myself when I run is much needed zen time, and I'm able to really think. Been also changing my diet and I'm already just feeling better overall. Hoping I'm able to stick with it and just prepare and let the chips fall where they may. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 7, 2022 9:45:22 GMT -5
Out of the blue asks you to open the books on finances.
Do you think she has already spoken to a lawyer, and that the assessment of the household finances was the first stage homework in deciding how things would shake out?
Did she get into the value of the home, car, pension and investments? How much money you make vs her?
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 7, 2022 11:09:22 GMT -5
Everything indicates your wife is planning to divorce you. Whether or not you want a divorce, you need to see a lawyer ASAP to figure out how a divorce would shake out. This doesn't mean you have to file. It just means you need to be prepared.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 7, 2022 13:31:02 GMT -5
The contempt, the ring, the sex, now the finances.
She sounds like she has checked out long ago. The absence of emotional investment might also explain why she is "not sorry".
She is probably waiting for you to file for divorce. Some people don't want to be the bad guy and would rather the other person throw in the towel.
If nobody does it, this drags on forever.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 8, 2022 6:27:54 GMT -5
Well it sounds like she is stressed ✅ And it sounds like she is fatigued ✅ That said, I’ll bet my mortgage that she finds the energy and the calmness to have sex with herself. In short, her sexual appetite has been removed from you and she is no longer sharing it. In many settings I would never openly admit my opinion with regards to this but personally I would hunt down any sex toys and keep a firm track of their movements. Is that intrusive (much like looking through her phone)? Yes it is. Do you as her husband have the right to know if something or someone else is being chosen over you and thus explore the idea of making an informed decision? Yes you absolutely do in my opinion because invariably, if you just ask the question outright….are you fucking someone else? Are you fucking yourself? You will be subjected to a dishonest answer or one that makes you feel like the bad guy for asking... Gotta disagree. That behavior will not lead to your spouse engaging you. Worse, the invasion of privacy serves as a (True!) pretext for future refusal and ammo for arguments that the refuser was right to leave a "controlling" spouse. If one has needs (things you want so badly they become obsessive or painful) that aren't being met and show no sign of being about to, pursuing remedies is justified. Changing what you decide to do makes sense. Controlling what others do is commonly not recommended. I was going to say that if the refuser is not masturbating, nor having an affair, I would not think the refused's actions should change all that much. The reasons and justification might, but not the result. Stay, Outsource, Leave. But then I went through the permutations:
If the refuser is utterly innocent but wants permanent celibacy (or nigh), would one stay? If using toys in your absence, would you outsource? If an affair, would you divorce? I can see why the "why" changes your actions. Then I wondered whether the dishonest answer you assume you would get would be a bad thing. If the refuser admits an affair, divorce is on the table, but the other options may have merit, if needs get met. If solitaire, a discussion of options could still be had. If total innocence is claimed, discussion of the three options can still be had. Taking the answer at face value doesn't limit you and serves as a springboard for deciding on how to get your needs met through one of the options. The refused need not have much say in which you choose unless they opt for divorce, but then again, they could do that right now before you take steps to fix your SM. It avoids sullying your own behavior with the intrusive actions, offers the gift of believing in the refuser's honesty (even if you don't actually have such faith) and offers opportunity for communication, assuming that it is backed with consequences you either keep to yourself or kindly, but firmly share. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 8, 2022 10:38:49 GMT -5
The betrayal one senses when catching their averse spouse flicking her bean resembles the threat an averse spouse feels when his frustrated partner moves out of the bedroom. When she "tends to her lady garden" it threatens the "low libido" narrative that's been promoted, just as moving out threatens the "we are normal married people where everything is great except the sex" narrative. These two lies perpetuate the household and both sides are invested in them. The truth threatens them, and may even be perceived as a betrayal of the mutual endeavor - the illusion of a marriage.
Without even intending, I was aware on multiple occasions of Mrs Apocrypha taking matters in hand when we had been in a sexually fraught situation for many months. In the open relationship death throes, I never stopped paying attention to the quality, ease and direction of her amorous attentions. It was through this BLATANT behavior that I was finally able to obliterate and burn away the narrative I'd been clinging to that we just needed to fix things up and restore her sexuality, like a circuit repair in which her default state was attraction to me.
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mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Mar 9, 2022 0:47:34 GMT -5
Out of the blue asks you to open the books on finances. Do you think she has already spoken to a lawyer, and that the assessment of the household finances was the first stage homework in deciding how things would shake out? Did she get into the value of the home, car, pension and investments? How much money you make vs her? While I can't completely say for sure, I don't think she's spoken to a lawyer. Though it kind of was out of the blue, I'm starting to think that she wanted to talk after I used almost our entire tax refund for paying down debt. While I had told her I needed to use most of it to pay the bills, I don't think she expected that much to go to a credit card. I think she had plans with spending some of it, and that triggered her to split up the finances. As far as how much money we make, she definitely makes more (it's at least 60% her 40% me). She also didn't get into any other assets as we only discussed the monthly bills. Still, based on everything else that has happened over the last several months, it does have me leery and makes me think that she may be doing some planning on her end. I am preparing to see a lawyer in the near future myself as I need to prepare for what is likely to come. While I know it's something I have to do, I will say that it does feel surreal. Hard to believe that things have gotten to this point. I really want to thank all of you for all of your responses. Your advice and thoughts are much appreciated, and have really made me think about my situation in different ways, which has helped me look at things from an outside view. I will continue to post when I can and will keep you all updated. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 9, 2022 6:21:13 GMT -5
While I can't completely say for sure, I don't think she's spoken to a lawyer. Though it kind of was out of the blue, I'm starting to think that she wanted to talk after I used almost our entire tax refund for paying down debt If you're splitting up money, are you cancelling joint credit cards? Acknowledging that you may get saddled with your wife's credit card bills anyway. A post-nup could place her personal account debt solely on her and secure a "no alimony" clause for her as a carrot to the personal responsibility stick. Life happens, so it's likely not a perfect solution, but maybe worthwhile. Maybe. |
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Post by rejected101 on Mar 9, 2022 14:03:09 GMT -5
Well it sounds like she is stressed ✅ And it sounds like she is fatigued ✅ That said, I’ll bet my mortgage that she finds the energy and the calmness to have sex with herself. In short, her sexual appetite has been removed from you and she is no longer sharing it. In many settings I would never openly admit my opinion with regards to this but personally I would hunt down any sex toys and keep a firm track of their movements. Is that intrusive (much like looking through her phone)? Yes it is. Do you as her husband have the right to know if something or someone else is being chosen over you and thus explore the idea of making an informed decision? Yes you absolutely do in my opinion because invariably, if you just ask the question outright….are you fucking someone else? Are you fucking yourself? You will be subjected to a dishonest answer or one that makes you feel like the bad guy for asking... Gotta disagree. That behavior will not lead to your spouse engaging you. Worse, the invasion of privacy serves as a (True!) pretext for future refusal and ammo for arguments that the refuser was right to leave a "controlling" spouse. If one has needs (things you want so badly they become obsessive or painful) that aren't being met and show no sign of being about to, pursuing remedies is justified. Changing what you decide to do makes sense. Controlling what others do is commonly not recommended. I was going to say that if the refuser is not masturbating, nor having an affair, I would not think the refused's actions should change all that much. The reasons and justification might, but not the result. Stay, Outsource, Leave. But then I went through the permutations:
If the refuser is utterly innocent but wants permanent celibacy (or nigh), would one stay? If using toys in your absence, would you outsource? If an affair, would you divorce? I can see why the "why" changes your actions. Then I wondered whether the dishonest answer you assume you would get would be a bad thing. If the refuser admits an affair, divorce is on the table, but the other options may have merit, if needs get met. If solitaire, a discussion of options could still be had. If total innocence is claimed, discussion of the three options can still be had. Taking the answer at face value doesn't limit you and serves as a springboard for deciding on how to get your needs met through one of the options. The refused need not have much say in which you choose unless they opt for divorce, but then again, they could do that right now before you take steps to fix your SM. It avoids sullying your own behavior with the intrusive actions, offers the gift of believing in the refuser's honesty (even if you don't actually have such faith) and offers opportunity for communication, assuming that it is backed with consequences you either keep to yourself or kindly, but firmly share. Fair enough. I’m not singing from the same hymn sheet unfortunately. If your partner refuses you religiously and you suspect the possibility that they masturbate regularly, you can’t rely on an honest answer if you simply ask. Because honesty in that situation means the refuser has to face some really tough but justified questions. These are the type of questions they don’t like giving answers to. So to avoid the idea that you would become known as “the controlling” party you have to do the same thing as what you would do if you decided to outsource. Not get caught! The fundamental question I tend to ask myself in this scenario and the bench mark for whether this spying or intrusive behaviour is justified is simple. Is it reasonable for someone to engage in a hidden intrusive method in order to know what they have the right to know? The answer is absolutely yes. You can’t make an informed decision without such knowledge. Finally, any concern that being caught may lead to the refuser becoming more of a refuser or less likely to stop being a refuser is simple. We are all here for a reason aren’t we? Refusers are refusing and they seldom change. You are seeking to defy odds where winning the lottery is better. So where is the real risk? |
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