mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Jan 24, 2022 1:02:43 GMT -5
Hi everyone, just a forewarning that this will be a LONG post. I just turned 38 years old and have been married to my wife for over 13 years. We have 3 kids (ages 11, 9, and 7), and up until a few years ago, our marriage was actually great. We were always there for each other and we were intimate with each other fairly regularly.
I feel like the first sign of trouble in our marriage was when my wife asked me if I wanted to have a 4th child. This was about 5 years ago. I had already told her that the 3rd would be the last as logistically it would be difficult raising any more than 3 as financially it would be tough. Once I told her no, I noticed she started to become more distant and we were intimate less and less with each other. While frustrating, I never ever thought that our marriage was in trouble, and I always made sure to communicate my feelings to her and she would to me as well. About 3 1/2 years ago, she switched to working the night shift (she is a nurse). While this helped us financially, it started to take a toll on our relationship. She started to become burnt out and began taking out her anger at me for everything. I tried to be patient as I understood her lack of sleep, so I wanted to help around the house and with the kids wherever I could. I spoke with her on multiple occasions if she should switch shifts, and she would get angry and said I was being selfish as it would take her away from seeing the kids.
Fast forward to about 2 years ago. Things were still rocky between us, and the sex had dropped to maybe 5-10 times over the prior year. I had gotten very upset over this, which she responded to by planning a mini vacation and initiated sex with me (which was very rare). I had thought that maybe we were turning a corner and things would get better. We had sex one time right before the pandemic started, and once it hit March 2020 all of my kids went to remote learning for school due to Covid. This really put an extra strain on her, as she needed to stay up with the kids for school after working the night shift. I tried to help where I could, but it was difficult as I worked from home in my office. On rough weeks for her at work, I would take time off to help her and my MIL who would sometimes come to help. The sex at this point dropped off a cliff. We ended up going the whole rest of the year without sex.
About a year ago, we got into a huge fight about it. While I was trying to be patient, it was getting to be too much. When I pushed her on the fact that not only have we not had sex in a year, she barely would touch me. She lashed back out at me and complained about never getting enough sleep. What ticked me off about it (and still does), is that she's perfectly loving to everyone else in our family, including our kids, her mom, the neighbors, hell even the pets. Basically everyone but me. If she was that tired, so wouldn't be that nice to anybody. She essentially dismissed all of my complaints and made me focus on her. Foolishly I tried even harder to be there for her without pressing my issues with the marriage.
More months would go by and by June of last year, we got into another really heated argument, this time about money. I had told her how much money we had until our next payday, and she brushed it off and ignored me. She ended up spending all of our money within a few days, so I got mad and said you can't spend anything else. Then she got mad and said that we should have separate accounts so that we could spend our own money. I took this as a first sign of things to come, because we always looked at it as our money in the past. When my youngest daughter started telling me of all the things my wife wanted to do with her that week (get their nails painted, go to the zoo, etc.), I really got upset and blew up at my wife. I felt like she was completely ignoring me and she started using the fact that she makes more money than me as a reason I shouldn't be able to tell her anything. While I apologized about the way I went about it, I told her I was upset because she's not listening to me about spending money. She again ignored me and from that point forward, she stopped the little amount of kissing and hugging she was giving me.
Over the next few months, things were tough. At times she wouldn't even talk to me, so I would have to write letters to get across what I wanted to say. After she read the letters, I was expecting it to start a conversation. They never did. Then I had noticed that she wasn't wearing her wedding ring anymore as she had put it away. This got me thinking that maybe she was cheating on me. I know you shouldn't do this, but I began looking through her text messages, but couldn't find anything. Either way, I knew things were really going south with us and that it was becoming serious.
About a few months ago, I kind of just let the whole thing go with trying to get any intimacy with her as it just became exhausting to try. I wanted to just try to take baby steps in repairing our marriage, but soon realized that it was likely not coming back. While we were still talking with each other and at least being cordial recently, I just about had it a few days ago on my birthday. I thought she might at least care enough to be nicer than usual. Not only did she not even say happy birthday to me the entire day, but when I tried to kiss her after the kids gave me her present, she turned away and wanted nothing to do with me. I was honestly ready to walk out the door if not for my kids being there.
The next day after the kids went to school, I asked if we can talk and she just said "No." I stormed out of the room and just felt like giving up on us. The one thing I never imagined happening is that she would completely stop trying when it came to our relationship. It's like she totally checked out and doesn't want to even try.
At this point, I just feel so trapped. Any last denial I had left of her loving me is now gone. She clearly doesn't care about our marriage anymore, and no longer loves me. That's a really hard thing to get over after everything that we have been through as a couple. For so long I have been sad and upset over this, but now I'm just filled with anger. There is nothing that I have done to deserve this. I have never cheated on her, never abused her, or did anything so egregious to warrant her actions. To be fair, I'm not perfect and there are plenty of things that I can see would make her very frustrated with me, but there is never a time that I stopped loving her, and would always help her in any way.
I haven't spoken with her since my birthday, and don't plan on it, especially since she doesn't want to speak to me. We're basically just co-existing in our house. Now I'm not even sleeping in the same bed as her.
I've really contemplated things, and while my emotional side wants to gather all my things and leave, the rational side of me is making me stay. I know that my financial situation would be very rough with child support of 3 kids in my state (though I plan on seeing an attorney for the specifics). I also know that I wouldn't get to see my kids that often. That to me is a deal breaker. I love my kids so much, and not being able to see them that often would honestly break my heart. I also have hobbies that I enjoy that I wouldn't be able to do if I were to leave due to finances (though that is not quite as important). It pains me so much because the lack of intimacy (now going on 2 years without any sex) has created a gigantic void in my life that I believe will not return with my wife. The complete lack of communication that we have as well is extremely frustrating as I feel like I can't talk to anyone about my situation. I know that I could get counseling (I've tried to convince her of marriage counseling, but like everything else she ignored it), but I don't know what I would get out of it other than having someone to vent to.
I'm not really looking for any advice (though anyone still reading can provide it if you want to), but just need an avenue to type everything out. At this point, I don't feel like doing anything for her, and if she ultimately wants me to leave, then so be it. I'm just so angry because I don't know why she is doing this to us. I don't understand what I've done to make her not care this much. If I had to guess though, I really think we've just gone different ways. I feel like she is extremely angry and jealous that I get to work from home while she is working nights at a hospital. If I try to help her, she is constantly negative telling me how what I've done is not to her liking and will just do it herself anyway. She works hard for the sake of working hard. While I believe in working hard, I also believe that you should have balance in your life and strive to do things you want to do. I think that also makes her very angry as she sees me not suffering as much as she is. To be clear, that's not to mean I don't want to help her, far from it. If she let me help her and reciprocated that to me and was more positive, I would continue helping her. Instead, she continues to focus on the negative with me 100% of the time. It makes me want to ignore her concerns because she doesn't even want to address mine. I shouldn't be punished because she is the way she is. And the thing is, I'm not asking her to change who she is. I'm just asking to compromise with realistic expectations. Instead, all she wants me to do is help her and she feels like she doesn't have to give anything back to me.
For now, I feel like I don't have any good choices, but that the best one for me is to stay for now. I've been trying to focus on my kids and my hobbies as a way to keep me going, but inevitably I keep falling back into a depressed state as I miss the warm touch of a women's body next to mine. I miss kissing and hugging and the feeling of someone truly loving me. Right now I'm just left with hate and disgust and am reminded of it every day. The sad thing is, I feel less stressed and anxious when she's not there. Porn helps from time to time, but that is only good up to a point. It's the love I miss even more than the sex. For the first time in our marriage I dream about being with another woman and just having them care about me. Ask me how my day was. Want to watch a movie with me. Care about our dreams and goals in life. None of which I get from my wife ever. It's not fair to have to live like this.
Anyways, I feel like I've wrote enough. Thank you to anyone that read through this and I wish the best to anyone else in a similar situation.
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Post by baza on Jan 24, 2022 6:24:40 GMT -5
Welcome Brother mike38 . I see that you are planning on seeing a lawyer in your jurisdiction concerning your situation. Given that all marriages end (by divorce or death) knowing how such a situation would shake out for you is vital knowledge to have, even if your marriage is "made in heaven". This would apply to your missus too. In an ILIASM deal, the information is critical. Anyone in an ILIASM deal faces some monumentally difficult choices. Reading a lot in here would be my recommendation. In particular the post of Brother shamwow titled T-minus is one I'd suggest. it chronicles his ILIASM journey from go to whoa chronologically. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 24, 2022 6:45:55 GMT -5
Once her ring came off, did it ever go back on? If so, was it timed with anything in particular?
Are you still wearing yours?
How's the relationship with the kids? The sniping negativity makes me worry about efforts to undermine your bond. Any sign of that? Perhaps your bond is stronger and that makes her feel bad about herself? She resents your closeness?
Perhaps the authoritative stance you took on no fourth kid and how to spend money felt unilateral to her. Maybe she didn't question it then had a conversation with a friend who told her you were controlling and abusive? (because her ex-husband was)
Are your accounts separate? Is debt piling up? You may want to agree to do so for your own financial safety.
Do you do your (it's not just hers) housework, even if she doesn't like how you do it? Do you do your own laundry? The kids'? Cook meals for them and yourself assuming she doesn't like what you make? (I'm going on the possibility that you can do no right in her eyes, but maybe it's not that bad.) If you split, you'll need to be looking after your kids' upkeep anyway. Might as well start now and start ignoring your wife's preferences. She can apply tweaks to correct your imperfections if she has too much time on her hands. (doesn't seem like a complaint she has)
Does she take medication? Did she stop? Therapist?
Does she come from a divorced home?
In your state, what effect does infidelity have on alimony? (BTW, if she makes more money than you it might be her paying you.) Is she trying to force an affair so you can be blamed for the marital split she wants but won't admit?
Question cannonade complete.
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mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Jan 25, 2022 23:50:17 GMT -5
Once her ring came off, did it ever go back on? If so, was it timed with anything in particular? Are you still wearing yours? How's the relationship with the kids? The sniping negativity makes me worry about efforts to undermine your bond. Any sign of that? Perhaps your bond is stronger and that makes her feel bad about herself? She resents your closeness? Perhaps the authoritative stance you took on no fourth kid and how to spend money felt unilateral to her. Maybe she didn't question it then had a conversation with a friend who told her you were controlling and abusive? (because her ex-husband was) Are your accounts separate? Is debt piling up? You may want to agree to do so for your own financial safety. Do you do your (it's not just hers) housework, even if she doesn't like how you do it? Do you do your own laundry? The kids'? Cook meals for them and yourself assuming she doesn't like what you make? (I'm going on the possibility that you can do no right in her eyes, but maybe it's not that bad.) If you split, you'll need to be looking after your kids' upkeep anyway. Might as well start now and start ignoring your wife's preferences. She can apply tweaks to correct your imperfections if she has too much time on her hands. (doesn't seem like a complaint she has) Does she take medication? Did she stop? Therapist? Does she come from a divorced home? In your state, what effect does infidelity have on alimony? (BTW, if she makes more money than you it might be her paying you.) Is she trying to force an affair so you can be blamed for the marital split she wants but won't admit? Question cannonade complete. Thank you for your response. Her ring has stayed off, and I don't believe it was timed with anything that I can remember. I have kept mine on. My relationship with my kids is great. I honestly felt a bit of jealousy from her with my closeness to the kids prior to when she changed her shift to night shift at work because she barely got to spend time with them before that. Ironically though, I felt like our marriage was a lot better prior to her switching to night shift. It's very difficult to argue with her about anything when she can legitimately say that she's exhausted and is able to use that as an excuse for almost anything. As far as an authoritative stance, I probably didn't explain that in enough detail. I had told her prior to having our 3rd child that this was it and I wanted to be done at 3, and she agreed at the time. When she wanted a 4th, I felt like her wanting kids would never end because I couldn't trust her with being on the same page as me. I knew that she would be pissed with me, but logistically it just didn't make sense for us to have any more kids and I felt (and still do) that 3 is more than enough. The money stance I gave was admittedly a bit over the line, which is why I apologized to her. Still, I was really upset because of how she reacted to me when I tried to talk to her about money the previous two times. I had said I'm sorry in the hopes that she would also say she's sorry for not listening, but instead she piled on that I was wrong and that I should be sorry without admitting fault for anything. That has also become a theme with her - I honestly can't think of the last time she took blame for anything she has done, which makes reconciling our differences very difficult. We still have a joint account, but she's now allocating some of the money she makes into a separate account, and I plan on doing something similar soon. The debt we have is a concern, specifically with our two credit cards because they are in my name. It's not really bad, but it's not really good either. I'm trying to get that in check and once I do I will have her use her own credit cards for her stuff and I'll use mine for my stuff. So, the housework is a bit interesting. Because I work during the weekdays and she works nights, I do what I can do to help, but admittedly, she definitely does more. She does the laundry during the day and normally cooks (though I will when her work schedule is bad). Trust me that I would have no problem doing those chores or any others for that matter if our work schedules were the same, however when she gets on me for every little thing I don't do right, it really gets on my nerves and sometimes we get into an argument about it and it makes me not want to do them. It's very frustrating to want to help your wife when she is exhausted only to be put down and yelled at when it's not done to her liking. Having thought about this though, I almost feel like it's all about control with her. She enjoys being the victim, whether it's how much harder her work is than mine or how much she has to do around the house. I almost feel like she makes me not want to do the chores so that she can do them. Not just so that she can do it the way she wants, but then she can say that she does most of the housework whenever we get into an argument. She isn't on any medication and her father passed away when she was in middle school. She would honestly be the last person I know to get therapy as she is the type of person to just push through any pain she is feeling. It's also why I believe she never wants to talk about anything with me. Where I think about things for a long time and is more emotional when it comes to our marriage, she just cares about the next thing she has to do and keeps herself busy not thinking about anything (at least that's what she leads me to believe). I actually feel like this can be good and bad for both of us, depending on how you look at it. I'm honestly not sure about your question on alimony as I haven't looked too far into that yet (but plan to). Sometimes I feel like she is pushing me away so that I do either cheat or just leave her, which would allow her to blame me for it. That is also part of the reason for staying, so that it puts the ball in her court. The problem is there is no telling what her plans are with everything, and that this situation could go on indefinitely. |
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mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Jan 25, 2022 23:54:44 GMT -5
Welcome Brother mike38 . I see that you are planning on seeing a lawyer in your jurisdiction concerning your situation. Given that all marriages end (by divorce or death) knowing how such a situation would shake out for you is vital knowledge to have, even if your marriage is "made in heaven". This would apply to your missus too. In an ILIASM deal, the information is critical. Anyone in an ILIASM deal faces some monumentally difficult choices. Reading a lot in here would be my recommendation. In particular the post of Brother shamwow titled T-minus is one I'd suggest. it chronicles his ILIASM journey from go to whoa chronologically. Thank you for your response Baza. I will definitely read more on this forum. I have read some already and it's crazy how similar the stories are to mine (though depressing as well for others in an ILIASM situation as I don't wish that on anyone). |
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 26, 2022 6:47:49 GMT -5
Her ring has stayed off, ... I have kept mine on. My relationship with my kids is great. I honestly felt a bit of jealousy from her with my closeness to the kids prior to when she changed her shift to night shift at work because she barely got to spend time with them before that. Ironically though, I felt like our marriage was a lot better prior to her switching to night shift. It's very difficult to argue with her about anything when she can legitimately say that she's exhausted and is able to use that as an excuse for almost anything. ... I wanted to be done at 3, and she agreed at the time. When she wanted a 4th, I felt like her wanting kids would never end because I couldn't trust her with being on the same page as me. I knew that she would be pissed with me, but logistically it just didn't make sense for us to have any more kids and I felt (and still do) that 3 is more than enough. The money stance I gave was admittedly a bit over the line, which is why I apologized to her. Still, I was really upset because of how she reacted to me when I tried to talk to her about money the previous two times. I had said I'm sorry in the hopes that she would also say she's sorry for not listening, but instead she piled on that I was wrong and that I should be sorry without admitting fault for anything. That has also become a theme with her - I honestly can't think of the last time she took blame for anything she has done, which makes reconciling our differences very difficult. We still have a joint account, but she's now allocating some of the money she makes into a separate account, and I plan on doing something similar soon. The debt we have is a concern, specifically with our two credit cards because they are in my name. It's not really bad, but it's not really good either. I'm trying to get that in check and once I do I will have her use her own credit cards for her stuff and I'll use mine for my stuff. ...when she gets on me for every little thing I don't do right,... it makes me not want to do them. ...Having thought about this though, I almost feel like it's all about control with her... but then she can say that she does most of the housework whenever we get into an argument. ...She would honestly be the last person I know to get therapy as she is the type of person to just push through any pain she is feeling... keeps herself busy not thinking about anything... I'm honestly not sure about your question on alimony as I haven't looked too far into that yet (but plan to). Sometimes I feel like she is pushing me away so that I do either cheat or just leave her, which would allow her to blame me for it. That is also part of the reason for staying, so that it puts the ball in her court. The problem is there is no telling what her plans are with everything, and that this situation could go on indefinitely. I disapprove of labels. I much prefer identification of symptoms and addressing those. I say this as I suggest tuning in to a few episodes of The Covert Narcissist podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-covert-narcissism-podcast/id1566895530Using the words/diagnosis is inflammatory and can be counterproductive. If this "diagnosis" doesn't fit, the behavior is still difficult to live with. I bring it up so you can hear about some similarities with the host's husband (the sex of the spouse isn't terribly important to the point of her essays). Scan the podcast titles and pick a few that may relate. The absence of interest in reconciliation is what makes me think you could stand to be familiar with maladaptive habits like hers. Listening to them on behalf of a bullied friend of mine, I've grown more aware of my own tendencies to throw my weight around and reign in some. Am I getting switching to night shift allowed her MORE quality time with the kids, but the marriage has suffered? How much spending is on the kids? Any compensating going on there? Buying love? That rarely works and it can make the "generous" parent bananas when the efforts don't seem to amount to much. She has a job. You have a job. Why is she so much more exhausted? Difficulty sleeping? Too much housework on top of her job (perfectionism/Supermom stuff?) Not being allowed to change her mind shut off what she felt was an important part of her life. She craved motherhood? Might look at the plus side. She wanted to have them with you. There's little higher praise than that. Now with youngest child at 7, that ship may have sailed and there's no time machine. She feels wronged in a way that can't be undone. Even if she's over it, the emotional confrontation might remain. That's a big one. Few bigger. Was it unfair to you, yes. Unfair to her? Kind of, yes. Life doesn't always offer win-win scenarios and there was the alternative course of deliberate poverty but a house full of rugrats and maybe love? That vision may still be dancing in her head for all we know and she sees it as having been cheated. You were on the same page. Keeping her on that page was a decision she felt compelled to make, but was unhappy with. She could keep her word, or you could be flexible. Had you known the resentment that would erupt, maybe you could have changed your mind. Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not pointing fingers. This game ain't for sissies. Financially, I think you'd do well to split off your allowance sooner rather than later and close those joint credit accounts pronto. Getting them "in check" is easier when the balances cannot grow. You'll pay them off and they'll be gone. This is not bulletproof. There can be claims of joint purchases on an individual card that she'll claim you're properly responsible for. She won't be wrong about that all the time. The arguments may resume even if the cards are separate. The individual cards may be seen as joint debt anyway even if you decide to split. (This is "Choosing to Stay", we don't encourage divorce here, but the subject still comes up as a possibility, lest we be ostriches.) May want to squirrel away your funds judiciously. When she reaches her credit limit, you can help her with minimum payments (or not. Enabling can be the wrong thing to do.) The housework. Hooboy. Listen to that podcast. The martyr complex stuff? It'll be like listening to yourself talk. Try to react with sympathy for her miserable mental spiral rather than angry. Start some boundaries to keep yourself safe. Do whatever chores you want. They aren't hers to control. Surely not the kids laundry and yours. If you were to split, you'd be doing those chores and her taking her ring off sure suggests she wishes you were in charge of her kids meals and laundry, doesn't it? Shouldn't you be getting practice? You can accept some advice, but they aren't directives. She's not your boss. You'll do what she wants (sometimes) out of love/respect, not obligation/mandate. Doing things "slipshod" is how you'll do things without her around. Deal with it. Different standards will happen. Perhaps she'll find the world doesn't end if the whites are a shade duller and you forget the fabric softener once in a while. Getting the legal end of things covered could be worthwhile. Even if you don't start the process, she could. Pushing you away? Uh, yeah. That's fair. Taking your ring off is a bootprint on your hindquarters. You don't know what made her take her ring off? Dang, man. You never asked? |
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 2, 2022 15:30:35 GMT -5
For now, I feel like I don't have any good choices, but that the best one for me is to stay for now. I read your post but don't understand how you arrived at the feeling that it is best to stay, based on what you wrote. She holds you in contempt. She's not just indifferent and this is obviously not just about sex. I agree, no good choices here, but what's your thinking on what's in the marriage for you as opposed to - say - a cooperative separation arrangement? I'm not suggesting action either way here; I'm more interested in knowing more about the basis for your thinking. |
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Post by baza on Feb 2, 2022 21:39:23 GMT -5
In regard to "choices".
It is true that in a struggling marriage there are no 'good' choices, in the short term.
Staying is a choice that involves ongoing pain for an indefinite period.
Leaving is a choice that involves ongoing pain whilst you are deconstructing the marriage PLUS the additional pain as the deconstruction takes place.
So I think we'd all agree that whichever choice you make short term is going to be painful.
If you keep taking the short term approach, then you probably can't see anything ahead of you but pain, one way or the other.
But if you can step back from the issue and take a wider and longer term view of the situation, you might see it differently.
Whereas the choice to stay is going to involve unhappiness for the foreseeable future, the leaving choice sees an end to the unhappiness of being in an ILIASM deal, in the longer term.
Short term, neither of the ILIASM options look too palatable.
But in the longer term, the leaving option removes the ongoing pain of being in an ILIASM deal, and offers you a new start.
That (the end of the ongoing pain of staying in an ILIASM situation) is the essential difference when viewed from a longer term perspective.
But at the end of the day, it's your choice.
All I am suggesting here is that when you are considering your dilemma, take a longer term view as well as a short term view.
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mike38
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by mike38 on Feb 4, 2022 0:30:16 GMT -5
Her ring has stayed off, ... I have kept mine on. My relationship with my kids is great. I honestly felt a bit of jealousy from her with my closeness to the kids prior to when she changed her shift to night shift at work because she barely got to spend time with them before that. Ironically though, I felt like our marriage was a lot better prior to her switching to night shift. It's very difficult to argue with her about anything when she can legitimately say that she's exhausted and is able to use that as an excuse for almost anything. ... I wanted to be done at 3, and she agreed at the time. When she wanted a 4th, I felt like her wanting kids would never end because I couldn't trust her with being on the same page as me. I knew that she would be pissed with me, but logistically it just didn't make sense for us to have any more kids and I felt (and still do) that 3 is more than enough. The money stance I gave was admittedly a bit over the line, which is why I apologized to her. Still, I was really upset because of how she reacted to me when I tried to talk to her about money the previous two times. I had said I'm sorry in the hopes that she would also say she's sorry for not listening, but instead she piled on that I was wrong and that I should be sorry without admitting fault for anything. That has also become a theme with her - I honestly can't think of the last time she took blame for anything she has done, which makes reconciling our differences very difficult. We still have a joint account, but she's now allocating some of the money she makes into a separate account, and I plan on doing something similar soon. The debt we have is a concern, specifically with our two credit cards because they are in my name. It's not really bad, but it's not really good either. I'm trying to get that in check and once I do I will have her use her own credit cards for her stuff and I'll use mine for my stuff. ...when she gets on me for every little thing I don't do right,... it makes me not want to do them. ...Having thought about this though, I almost feel like it's all about control with her... but then she can say that she does most of the housework whenever we get into an argument. ...She would honestly be the last person I know to get therapy as she is the type of person to just push through any pain she is feeling... keeps herself busy not thinking about anything... I'm honestly not sure about your question on alimony as I haven't looked too far into that yet (but plan to). Sometimes I feel like she is pushing me away so that I do either cheat or just leave her, which would allow her to blame me for it. That is also part of the reason for staying, so that it puts the ball in her court. The problem is there is no telling what her plans are with everything, and that this situation could go on indefinitely. I disapprove of labels. I much prefer identification of symptoms and addressing those. I say this as I suggest tuning in to a few episodes of The Covert Narcissist podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-covert-narcissism-podcast/id1566895530Using the words/diagnosis is inflammatory and can be counterproductive. If this "diagnosis" doesn't fit, the behavior is still difficult to live with. I bring it up so you can hear about some similarities with the host's husband (the sex of the spouse isn't terribly important to the point of her essays). Scan the podcast titles and pick a few that may relate. The absence of interest in reconciliation is what makes me think you could stand to be familiar with maladaptive habits like hers. Listening to them on behalf of a bullied friend of mine, I've grown more aware of my own tendencies to throw my weight around and reign in some. Am I getting switching to night shift allowed her MORE quality time with the kids, but the marriage has suffered? How much spending is on the kids? Any compensating going on there? Buying love? That rarely works and it can make the "generous" parent bananas when the efforts don't seem to amount to much. She has a job. You have a job. Why is she so much more exhausted? Difficulty sleeping? Too much housework on top of her job (perfectionism/Supermom stuff?) Not being allowed to change her mind shut off what she felt was an important part of her life. She craved motherhood? Might look at the plus side. She wanted to have them with you. There's little higher praise than that. Now with youngest child at 7, that ship may have sailed and there's no time machine. She feels wronged in a way that can't be undone. Even if she's over it, the emotional confrontation might remain. That's a big one. Few bigger. Was it unfair to you, yes. Unfair to her? Kind of, yes. Life doesn't always offer win-win scenarios and there was the alternative course of deliberate poverty but a house full of rugrats and maybe love? That vision may still be dancing in her head for all we know and she sees it as having been cheated. You were on the same page. Keeping her on that page was a decision she felt compelled to make, but was unhappy with. She could keep her word, or you could be flexible. Had you known the resentment that would erupt, maybe you could have changed your mind. Hindsight is 20-20. I'm not pointing fingers. This game ain't for sissies. Financially, I think you'd do well to split off your allowance sooner rather than later and close those joint credit accounts pronto. Getting them "in check" is easier when the balances cannot grow. You'll pay them off and they'll be gone. This is not bulletproof. There can be claims of joint purchases on an individual card that she'll claim you're properly responsible for. She won't be wrong about that all the time. The arguments may resume even if the cards are separate. The individual cards may be seen as joint debt anyway even if you decide to split. (This is "Choosing to Stay", we don't encourage divorce here, but the subject still comes up as a possibility, lest we be ostriches.) May want to squirrel away your funds judiciously. When she reaches her credit limit, you can help her with minimum payments (or not. Enabling can be the wrong thing to do.) The housework. Hooboy. Listen to that podcast. The martyr complex stuff? It'll be like listening to yourself talk. Try to react with sympathy for her miserable mental spiral rather than angry. Start some boundaries to keep yourself safe. Do whatever chores you want. They aren't hers to control. Surely not the kids laundry and yours. If you were to split, you'd be doing those chores and her taking her ring off sure suggests she wishes you were in charge of her kids meals and laundry, doesn't it? Shouldn't you be getting practice? You can accept some advice, but they aren't directives. She's not your boss. You'll do what she wants (sometimes) out of love/respect, not obligation/mandate. Doing things "slipshod" is how you'll do things without her around. Deal with it. Different standards will happen. Perhaps she'll find the world doesn't end if the whites are a shade duller and you forget the fabric softener once in a while. Getting the legal end of things covered could be worthwhile. Even if you don't start the process, she could. Pushing you away? Uh, yeah. That's fair. Taking your ring off is a bootprint on your hindquarters. You don't know what made her take her ring off? Dang, man. You never asked? Thanks for your response. I will look into that podcast you mentioned. As far as her nightshift work, I feel that to be the turning point of things going from bad to way worse in our marriage. The thing is, she forces herself to stay up during that day after she works at night, and if she's working the following night, she maybe will get 3 hours of sleep before heading back out. She gets to spend time with the kids after school and also gets to see their sports/activities over the weekend. Meanwhile, she wants absolutely nothing to do with me. Any conversation we have is usually just speaking about money, or about what needs to get done, who's taking which kid to practice, etc. I have tried to talk to her about going out to dinner to talk, or spending any type of time together when she's had a few days off in a row, but she always has an excuse not to. There definitely is supermom thing going on with her. EVERYTHING is about the kids with her, and while I see all of my neighbors and friends with kids finding time for themselves, that is rarely my wife, who would rather push herself to do more things with the kids than me. It's really caused me to be resentful, because I feel like I'm the absolute last priority for her. What you said about having the 4th child and beyond is accurate. I do sometimes think back and say to myself, why didn't I just say heck with it and go along with it? I guess at the time my thought was that if she wasn't on board with stopping at 3 kids, when would she ever stop? I remember it being tough because I knew that this likely would be a big deal to her, but it was also a big deal to me to not be financially strained, plus we would have likely needed to move to a bigger house which is something I didn't want to do either. In hindsight, it would have been interesting if doing that would have helped our marriage in the long run, but to be honest it could have just delayed the inevitable of where we are now. Who knows. About the finances, I have started to not provide her with either of my two credit cards when the money is low. She has been putting money away into her own account, so my thought is that she can start using some of her money while I get my credit card balances in check. Not sure if she will eventually get her own credit card. I am starting to try to do some of the chores myself, wherever I can. I will say though that it does get frustrating when I will do something around the house, only to see her follow behind me and do the same chore her way. I think she believes that if I'm not doing a chore perfectly, then I don't care or appreciate her. It's exhausting trying to appease her with it, so I will be honest and sometimes I will throw my hands up in the air and just let her do them. Then if we were to get into an argument, she would complain about how much she has to do, and work nights, etc. etc. It feels like a no win situation. In regards to the ring, I'll admit that I've been a bit cowardice with that. I wanted to bring it up with her, but every time I try to speak with her about anything she either ignores me or says she doesn't want to talk. I even tried to take a different approach recently and wrote her a letter basically just apologizing in the places I felt I was wrong in our relationship, instead of coming at her with anger. My hope was to get her to maybe open up a bit, but as per usual, she didn't address it and things only got marginally better with us. It's like she doesn't want to take any blame for anything she does and wants to double and triple down on where I am wrong, rather than look into the mirror for anything she does. It just feels like I can't get anywhere with her no matter what I do. |
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mike38
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Post by mike38 on Feb 4, 2022 0:44:00 GMT -5
For now, I feel like I don't have any good choices, but that the best one for me is to stay for now. I read your post but don't understand how you arrived at the feeling that it is best to stay, based on what you wrote. She holds you in contempt. She's not just indifferent and this is obviously not just about sex. I agree, no good choices here, but what's your thinking on what's in the marriage for you as opposed to - say - a cooperative separation arrangement? I'm not suggesting action either way here; I'm more interested in knowing more about the basis for your thinking. I guess the biggest thing for me right now is the kids. I realize that I would still get to see them in a separation agreement, but the thought of not getting to see them all the time hurts more than what I'm dealing with in my marriage. I love my kids so much, and I want to be able to see them all the time. It's also financial too - it would be very difficult being on my own with that. Plus - and I hate to admit this - but there is some overall fear that I have with going through with a separation. I know that probably doesn't make sense with what I am currently dealing with, but I worry about how the kids will be, how I will be personally, how other relationships I have with her family and our friends will change, etc. When I look at all of the pros and cons, staying just seems like the slightly better option currently. That's not to say things won't change, however. All I want right now is that we are ok with each other and we get along, even if there isn't intimacy/sex, as sad as that is. The thing is, she can't even give me that most of the time. It's like she's trying to push me into the direction of divorce. So I don't know. I can totally understand why my decision may be stupid to some, but it is fluid and I know things can still change in my thinking. I guess I'm just preparing myself now for what could occur in the future, and see what happens. |
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mike38
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Post by mike38 on Feb 4, 2022 0:54:44 GMT -5
In regard to "choices". It is true that in a struggling marriage there are no 'good' choices, in the short term. Staying is a choice that involves ongoing pain for an indefinite period. Leaving is a choice that involves ongoing pain whilst you are deconstructing the marriage PLUS the additional pain as the deconstruction takes place. So I think we'd all agree that whichever choice you make short term is going to be painful. If you keep taking the short term approach, then you probably can't see anything ahead of you but pain, one way or the other. But if you can step back from the issue and take a wider and longer term view of the situation, you might see it differently. Whereas the choice to stay is going to involve unhappiness for the foreseeable future, the leaving choice sees an end to the unhappiness of being in an ILIASM deal, in the longer term. Short term, neither of the ILIASM options look too palatable. But in the longer term, the leaving option removes the ongoing pain of being in an ILIASM deal, and offers you a new start. That (the end of the ongoing pain of staying in an ILIASM situation) is the essential difference when viewed from a longer term perspective. But at the end of the day, it's your choice. All I am suggesting here is that when you are considering your dilemma, take a longer term view as well as a short term view. I definitely hear you with that. I have thought a long time about both options, and you are right that leaving does open at least the possibility that I can be happy again. That's the part that really makes it difficult to stay. Knowing that things aren't getting better. It honestly infuriates me that while I feel like I'm doing everything I can to fix the marriage, she just doesn't care at all and won't even try. I just feel like there is so much miscommunication between us, and if she could just sit down and talk everything out, that we could at least make some progress. I'm just tired of always being the one to apologize, always having to feel bad for her situation. It just gets to the point where it's like do I want to continue being miserable every day, but get to still spend time with my kids and be able to do my hobbies, or do I just say the heck with it and leave, not knowing what's ahead but having the possibility of happiness? It just gets me angry that I even have to make that choice, but here I am. We'll see what happens. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 4, 2022 11:50:45 GMT -5
I read your post but don't understand how you arrived at the feeling that it is best to stay, based on what you wrote. She holds you in contempt. She's not just indifferent and this is obviously not just about sex. I agree, no good choices here, but what's your thinking on what's in the marriage for you as opposed to - say - a cooperative separation arrangement? I'm not suggesting action either way here; I'm more interested in knowing more about the basis for your thinking. I guess the biggest thing for me right now is the kids. I realize that I would still get to see them in a separation agreement, but the thought of not getting to see them all the time hurts more than what I'm dealing with in my marriage. I love my kids so much, and I want to be able to see them all the time. It's also financial too - it would be very difficult being on my own with that. Plus - and I hate to admit this - but there is some overall fear that I have with going through with a separation. I know that probably doesn't make sense with what I am currently dealing with, but I worry about how the kids will be, how I will be personally, how other relationships I have with her family and our friends will change, etc. When I look at all of the pros and cons, staying just seems like the slightly better option currently. That's not to say things won't change, however. All I want right now is that we are ok with each other and we get along, even if there isn't intimacy/sex, as sad as that is. The thing is, she can't even give me that most of the time. It's like she's trying to push me into the direction of divorce. So I don't know. I can totally understand why my decision may be stupid to some, but it is fluid and I know things can still change in my thinking. I guess I'm just preparing myself now for what could occur in the future, and see what happens. Let's not worry so much about what might seem stupid - all the concerns you have are normal; but instead focus on what you know to be true, and extrapolate your prospects from there. You said, " All I want right now is that we are ok with each other and we get along, even if there isn't intimacy/sex, as sad as that is. The thing is, she can't even give me that most of the time." If that is the case, then I'd be wary of thinking that you are the one who is most actively considering a divorce right now. As you said, " It's like she's trying to push me into the direction of divorce." What if it isn't that she's trying to push you, but is actively considering it herself. So, even if you weigh the options and decide to stick, I'd say based on what you are expressing here - it's likely within 2-5 years that you will be surprised by either an affair on her part or a separation she initiates, no matter how much you cede ground to her contempt. You might think that if you can just unlock whatever mischaracterization of that contempt is, that you can recover back to a baseline or love, but is that realistic in any situation - like a workplace or friendship? How common is that in adult relationships? Does she appear interested in that? How many years has this been going on so far? It's possible to do everything right and still end up where you are. Some things are not in your control, or might be a product of you failing to live up to the image she imagined you to embody - fair or not. In my own case, my wife thought somehow that that I'd be some kind of superparent able to provide her a positive plug and play family environment in which she would live, and copped to resenting me when she found that marriage and raising kids was hard on both of us -- as if I'd tricked her somehow and given her the wrong life. Knowing that wasn't fair to me didn't change the feeling of resentment, especially from someone who didn't come from a positive family model and who wouldn't otherwise have made a choice to get married herself. You could look at it as bad weather - a house on a flood plain - leaving you with a two-sided dilemma. Consider what else is true and not true about your situation right now. I get the thing about the kids - I have kids as well. You don't want to not be around them 100% of the time, but are you presently around them 100% of the time? Take out sleeping hours and school. Do you and your spouse both engage with the kids at the same time? Many parents in your situation end up with coping mechanisms (hobbies and getaways) where they "tap out" in a cooperative manner already, and are only on with the kids for a portion of the time. Are you able to model kindness and affection toward each other for them, so that they are able to see and act on what an affectionate relationship looks like? |
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mike38
Junior Member
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Post by mike38 on Feb 7, 2022 23:50:48 GMT -5
I guess the biggest thing for me right now is the kids. I realize that I would still get to see them in a separation agreement, but the thought of not getting to see them all the time hurts more than what I'm dealing with in my marriage. I love my kids so much, and I want to be able to see them all the time. It's also financial too - it would be very difficult being on my own with that. Plus - and I hate to admit this - but there is some overall fear that I have with going through with a separation. I know that probably doesn't make sense with what I am currently dealing with, but I worry about how the kids will be, how I will be personally, how other relationships I have with her family and our friends will change, etc. When I look at all of the pros and cons, staying just seems like the slightly better option currently. That's not to say things won't change, however. All I want right now is that we are ok with each other and we get along, even if there isn't intimacy/sex, as sad as that is. The thing is, she can't even give me that most of the time. It's like she's trying to push me into the direction of divorce. So I don't know. I can totally understand why my decision may be stupid to some, but it is fluid and I know things can still change in my thinking. I guess I'm just preparing myself now for what could occur in the future, and see what happens. Let's not worry so much about what might seem stupid - all the concerns you have are normal; but instead focus on what you know to be true, and extrapolate your prospects from there. You said, " All I want right now is that we are ok with each other and we get along, even if there isn't intimacy/sex, as sad as that is. The thing is, she can't even give me that most of the time." If that is the case, then I'd be wary of thinking that you are the one who is most actively considering a divorce right now. As you said, " It's like she's trying to push me into the direction of divorce." What if it isn't that she's trying to push you, but is actively considering it herself. So, even if you weigh the options and decide to stick, I'd say based on what you are expressing here - it's likely within 2-5 years that you will be surprised by either an affair on her part or a separation she initiates, no matter how much you cede ground to her contempt. You might think that if you can just unlock whatever mischaracterization of that contempt is, that you can recover back to a baseline or love, but is that realistic in any situation - like a workplace or friendship? How common is that in adult relationships? Does she appear interested in that? How many years has this been going on so far? It's possible to do everything right and still end up where you are. Some things are not in your control, or might be a product of you failing to live up to the image she imagined you to embody - fair or not. In my own case, my wife thought somehow that that I'd be some kind of superparent able to provide her a positive plug and play family environment in which she would live, and copped to resenting me when she found that marriage and raising kids was hard on both of us -- as if I'd tricked her somehow and given her the wrong life. Knowing that wasn't fair to me didn't change the feeling of resentment, especially from someone who didn't come from a positive family model and who wouldn't otherwise have made a choice to get married herself. You could look at it as bad weather - a house on a flood plain - leaving you with a two-sided dilemma. Consider what else is true and not true about your situation right now. I get the thing about the kids - I have kids as well. You don't want to not be around them 100% of the time, but are you presently around them 100% of the time? Take out sleeping hours and school. Do you and your spouse both engage with the kids at the same time? Many parents in your situation end up with coping mechanisms (hobbies and getaways) where they "tap out" in a cooperative manner already, and are only on with the kids for a portion of the time. Are you able to model kindness and affection toward each other for them, so that they are able to see and act on what an affectionate relationship looks like? I have thought about the fact that she is also possibly preparing herself for a separation. My gut says that at least right now she isn't having an affair, and I think that's frankly due to her being exhausted all of the time from work. Otherwise, I can totally see it happening. You are probably correct in that 2-5 year range with her leaving. Honestly, if she does at this point, so be it. I know that I need to prepare now for that, so I can get everything in order on my end. I've come to the point where I just feel like there is nothing more I can do, and I've tried doing almost everything to fix the marriage. This leads me to what you said which I 100% agree with: "It's possible to do everything right and still end up where you are. Some things are not in your control, or might be a product of you failing to live up to the image she imagined you to embody - fair or not." That really rang true with me. I truly believe that to be her, that she imagined I would eventually change to be someone I'm not, and that has caused total resentment. I kind of feel like no matter what I've done or try to do, it's never good enough in her eyes. Every time we talk (which is rare), it's her attitude directed at me that drives me crazy. Everything she says is oozing with resentment and anger. Every single thing is my fault. Hell, she'll do mental gymnastics to ensure something is my fault. I can't even remember the last time she took blame for anything. It's like she's taken all of the burdens in life and all of her anger and frustration and placed it on me, like I'm her human punching bag. I honestly don't know how long I can put up with it. It's so draining. Very recently I've just been trying to avoid her, like we're living separate lives in the same house. Hell, even roommates treat each other nicer than she treats me most days. As far as getting back to a baseline or love, I just can't see it happening. Right now, she doesn't appear at all like she even wants to entertain the thought. While it's been bad for the last couple of years, I feel like it's gotten way, way worse within the last 6 or so months. It's like she just got to a point where she's just checked out completely and doesn't want to try. Things really changed when I got mad about the finances last summer - mainly because she wasn't caring about how I felt about it more so than what she was spending money on. I was tired of being nice to her about it when she would ignore me or brush me off when I brought it up in a calm manner many times. That's when the kissing stopped almost completely. Before we would be angry for a few days, but always make up. Then it just became different. I wanted to make up and she didn't. She was done, completely. In regards to the kids, I get what you're saying. While I'm not around them 100% of the time, it's knowing I can see them almost whenever is what I cherish. As far as affection, I would love to, but my wife wants nothing to do with it. Hell, I can't even talk with her about how it's affecting the kids with us not doing anything. I'm already dreading Valentine's Day. If it's anything like my birthday was, I'll be lucky to even get a thank you from her for what I get her. It's just sad, and I ask myself every day how did it get to this point? I just wish that I can get answers to things. Like, I don't even care anymore what happens with us, but just why? What could I have done to deserve this type of treatment? I never could have imagined her ever treating me like this, and every day I just feel more and more compelled to leave it all. The whole thing just really sucks. |
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 8, 2022 0:08:39 GMT -5
mike38: "I'm already dreading Valentine's Day. If it's anything like my birthday was, I'll be lucky to even get a thank you from her for what I get her. It's just sad, and I ask myself every day how did it get to this point? I just wish that I can get answers to things. Like, I don't even care anymore what happens with us, but just why? What could I have done to deserve this type of treatment? I never could have imagined her ever treating me like this, and every day I just feel more and more compelled to leave it all. The whole thing just really sucks."
You may have done absolutely nothing wrong. Your wife may have changed. That happens.
Based on what you've described as going on in your marriage, why not preempt being disappointed on Valentine's Day by telling your wife you don't see any need to celebrate it. I did that in my marriage. I wasn't mean. I just said that we were so busy that it would be easier not to do anything special for V Day. He was fine with that. He'd obviously just been going through the motions, and I didn't see any reason for us to participate in what had become a charade. I found doing it that way worked better for me: no reason for me to be disappointed or to have to spend time looking for a valentine that was, basically, neutral. You could turn V Day into a family celebration -- cake for all. My parents didn't get along, and basically, that's what V Day became in my family.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 8, 2022 21:18:22 GMT -5
I say this as I suggest tuning in to a few episodes of The Covert Narcissist podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-covert-narcissism-podcast/id1566895530 Getting the legal end of things covered could be worthwhile. Even if you don't start the process, she could. Pushing you away? Uh, yeah. That's fair. Taking your ring off is a bootprint on your hindquarters. You don't know what made her take her ring off? Dang, man. You never asked? Thanks for your response. I will look into that podcast you mentioned. ...she maybe will get 3 hours of sleep before heading back out... I have tried to talk to her about going out to dinner to talk, or spending any type of time together when she's had a few days off in a row, but she always has an excuse not to. There definitely is supermom thing going on with her. EVERYTHING is about the kids with her, ... It's really caused me to be resentful, because I feel like I'm the absolute last priority for her. ...my thought was that if she wasn't on board with stopping at 3 kids, when would she ever stop? I remember it being tough because I knew that this likely would be a big deal to her, but it was also a big deal to me to not be financially strained,...it would have been interesting if doing that would have helped our marriage in the long run, but to be honest it could have just delayed the inevitable of where we are now. Who knows. About the finances, I have started to not provide her with either of my two credit cards when the money is low. She has been putting money away into her own account, so my thought is that she can start using some of her money while I get my credit card balances in check. Not sure if she will eventually get her own credit card. I am starting to try to do some of the chores myself, wherever I can. I will say though that it does get frustrating when I will do something around the house, only to see her follow behind me and do the same chore her way. I think she believes that if I'm not doing a chore perfectly, then I don't care or appreciate her. It's exhausting trying to appease her with it, so I will be honest and sometimes I will throw my hands up in the air and just let her do them. In regards to the ring, I'll admit that I've been a bit cowardice with that....It's like she doesn't want to take any blame for anything she does and wants to double and triple down on where I am wrong, rather than look into the mirror for anything she does. It just feels like I can't get anywhere with her no matter what I do. I suspect you may be right about ending up in the same place, but financially ruined as well. Three hours sleep? That'd make anyone snippy. She handles the kids well? Or is grouchy with them too? Ugh. "Putting money away" into a separate account when you have debt always struck me as insane. You could put more money into that same account if you weren't wasting it on interest payments. My sympathy. It's a common financial "strategy" out there. Do you care about doing the chore perfectly? Maybe you don't. If not, I'm with ya! "Good enough" housework is all anyone should expect from me. Ain't no one paying me for that crap. Don't appreciate her, because you don't do chores to her standards? Well now, if that ain't a two-way street! I'm curious, is it much faster when she puts finishing touches on your work than if she does it all herself? Consider it a team effort then! The expression "better than nothing" may apply here. I have had my wife nitpick work I do, to which I reply "You're welcome." She's a peach. She's quick to remember what she is paying me to keep house and quickly puts expectations into perspective. Remember, you're not doing YOUR housework FOR her. There is no "appeasement" here. You're not under her command. You do what you see fit. If she doesn't like it, she better get to the chores before you do them half-assed. You do your chores well enough. If she wants to do the same chores better...those are her chores. Have at it! Knock yourself out, sweetums! You want her to put it back on, it sounds like. Just an impression I'm getting, but I'm unsure she cares a whit about your feelings. She may be looking for a bit of pushback. A bit of machismo, as tiresome as that may be to 21st century men. OR, such backbone will escalate and she'll toss divorce papers at you, but then maybe that's what she's hoping you'll do for her because she's a coward. She pretends not to be married and hides it from the world by wearing no ring. Meanwhile, you remind her daily. Perhaps taking it off would free her of the public shame, the outward sign that her husband is still married. What stops her from divorcing you? The kids? Is she on the college plan? She plans to divorce in 11 years? Why does it have to be so miserable if the end is already decided? Why not be cordial until she decides the time is right? Speaking of the kids... My guess is, she's no fan of your parenting skills? |
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