jon
New Member
Posts: 4
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by jon on Jan 5, 2022 10:27:31 GMT -5
I see there are a tremendous number of resources here, which I appreciate.
Admittedly, I'm kind of "tired" of books but I don't think my wife & I have been recommended an appropriate book for a SM. e.g., we were recommended "Hot Monogamy" at one point, but as soon you start doing the exercises, you realize you need to be having sex for it to be relevant.
I am open though to a book or video series or podcast or whatever--but I'm not interested in just something that talks about the "reasons why" or that tells me how the average couple is having sex 50 times/yr (50 times more than me). I'm interested at this point in something that is solutions oriented. What are exercises we can engage in together? What steps can we be taking together?
Also of note, we read one of Esther Perel's books and she noted something about the "verbal" focus that many women have in relating to others. My W is nearly 100% verbal/talk-oriented. That's how she relates to the world. She can sit down & talk to someone for days and be excited about that. I've seen though that she can appreciate the experiential part of human existence too but her default is clearly talking. And, as such, she often stays in her head and is not in her body. So, I throw that in in that it would be nice to have exercises that are not just talk-oriented because talking has not gotten us there and I don't think ever will..... it's actually gotten to the point where historically I was an attentive listener, but I now find myself tuning out....
So, any suggestions are appreciated.
Many thanks!
Jon
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 5, 2022 12:05:57 GMT -5
I read so many. For me, the two most helpful in resolving my situation were David Schnarch - Passionate Marriage And the most evidence-based and contrarian one - anything by John Gottman.
Most marriage help books are like treating cancer with a bandaid - they operate downstream from the problem. Sexual aversion within a relationship is a result of a severe disconnection, but it's often (absurdly) treated like both parties forgot to how to have sex or relate.
They didn't forget, and they learn again pretty quick in their next relationship. These approaches work well upstream from the sexual aversion result, and instead focus on assessing CAUSES for the disconnection and the severity of it with - in Gottman's case - a very high degree of measurable accuracy. This can be used to triage the relationship efforts and help you decide whether to invest or part.
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Post by baza on Jan 5, 2022 19:09:50 GMT -5
There are lots of self help books about Brother jon , and many of them have some very sound suggestions concerning struggling marriages. Thing is, that the marriages you see in here have blown way past 'struggling' and usually exhibit high dysfunctionality. On the marriage spectrum, ILIASM deals are pretty much at the arse end of them. Basket cases. Advice relevant to a struggling' marriage is of extremely limited value for an ILIASM deal. A bit like using treatments appropriate to a common cold when the problem is actually full blown pneumonia. I guess the harsh question here Brother jon is whether your deal is a cold, or full blown pneumonia.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 7, 2022 6:23:09 GMT -5
David Schnarch - Passionate Marriage And the most evidence-based and contrarian one - anything by John Gottman. Haven't heard of Schnarch. The talk of Gottman's work has to do with discussion of dynamics and causes, but Jon asked about actions to take. Do those books have concrete steps? If so, they don't get as much mention as perhaps they should. I hear "therapy" as a common "action item"; but that would be more talk, which Jon seemed to say was already covered. (It doesn't help that the track record for therapy/counseling in fixing SMs isn't great either.) Surely understanding the mechanics of an SM are useful/important, but do they also have non-talk actions to suggest?
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 7, 2022 11:49:41 GMT -5
David Schnarch - Passionate Marriage And the most evidence-based and contrarian one - anything by John Gottman. Haven't heard of Schnarch. The talk of Gottman's work has to do with discussion of dynamics and causes, but Jon asked about actions to take. Do those books have concrete steps? If so, they don't get as much mention as perhaps they should. I hear "therapy" as a common "action item"; but that would be more talk, which Jon seemed to say was already covered. (It doesn't help that the track record for therapy/counseling in fixing SMs isn't great either.) Surely understanding the mechanics of an SM are useful/important, but do they also have non-talk actions to suggest? No. The abysmal track record of non-talk homework is that it invariably gets into some version of the "scented candles" or "do more around the house" approaches, assuming that one partner has somehow forgotten how to be appealing, or where one partner is resolving whatever is presently on the top of the heap of the other partner's general suffering. We all know how well they work. Schnarch's approach is called Crucible Therapy - an approach to partnered therapy work that boils a conflict down to lay bare the real impasse on which each party must make a consequential decision. "It comes down to this..." Everything is about getting to that core impasse and moving, progressing, learning, overcoming that wall, or choosing not to scale it. Once the impasse is made plain -conversation is about "what are you going to DO?" Gottman's work - profiled in Blink by Malcom Gladwell, and often quoted on this site - was mainly on evidence-based research. One of his chief evidence backed pieces was that he and his trainees and even laypeople could reliably (high 90% accuracy) predict divorce just by watching for practical evidence cues in conversations between people. His studies eventually found they could do this even by removing the audio. He called these 4 things - with their visual cues - the four horsemen. If all 4 are present - you are absolutely going to get a divorce and there is no point in taking therapy. Most therapy and discussion here on this board begins with the assumption and goal of learning or reminding how to connect sexually again. It all fails to take into account whether the averse partner WANTS that with that person. There's no point in giving steps to people to connect sexually to someone who doesn't see you that way. So in a practical sense, the biggest practical advice (before you even get to "how to") is to decide whether to try, or how much to try. Gottman's work can help with that and with uncovering what you need to determine it. For a lot of people who come to this board (where the problem has metastasized to the point that a spouse's aversion to a partner has exceeded the demands of one's libido), there's a snowball's chance in hell - they just don't know it yet. I've read dozens and done various kinds of couples therapist homework, with various exercises involving baby steps toward intimacy. "Go to bed at the same time" etc. "hold each other without making a sexual demand for 10 minutes, while clothed". You can DO these things, but they work with someone who wants to be with you - who sees you as a viable sexual candidate.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 10, 2022 5:21:17 GMT -5
Immense thanks for the upshots. I'd wager " hold each other without making a sexual demand for 10 minutes, while clothed" might mean "10 minutes or longer" and leaving the sexual demand/request/suggestion/invitation for another day entirely, making such gestures "safe" for the averse one? So unsexy checking your watch while you hold someone. I started doing something similar with Mrs. Mirrororchid years back-an intense embrace/kiss combo as she was leaving for work. 'I want you.' being the message, without any reasonable opportunity to take advantage even if she were inclined to say 'me too'. This may have helped her recognize her own failure to express romantic love even when the pressure was off. She responded well to my embraces, and later acknowledged that the "non-pressure" approach she had asked for and I had delivered on had not been effective. but she didn't up the ante later. This intensification of romantic gestures was part of my plan to open our marriage. I needed her to know I wanted her, and that inability to have her was the reason for opening up. She need not feel passed over, rejected, or falling short in attractiveness. If Jon would consider opening the marriage, this may be an "action item" to consider. Intensify the romance with zero pressure for sexual expression. That role will be left to someone else. "Deciding how hard to try" is a superb observation. The mental preparation to take drastic action... opening the marriage, seeing a divorce lawyer for the free consultation, having "The Talk", are all actions one performs with the mind. Quite concrete progress one makes in the escape, be it a reignited passionate marriage, or getting a new partner of one type or another. Decisions are action. And some of them must be taken as an individual. If one decides one is at the point where trying hard is of unknown value, there has been not a little discussion about building a social life to replace married life. These are action items that counteract co-dependency. It places oneself in a position of flexibility. "Take it or leave it." It gives one the capability to accept one's mere wants as important where some spouses who operate as a unit have lost their personal identity and shrunk their "wants" to only those shared by "we". When sex is not one of those shared wants, you end up here. Indulging non-sexual wants can be practice for that ultimate one. Go to the gym regularly, join that book club, go to the happy hour after work and watch football at the bar. Pretend you're single twice a week, minus the hunt for a mate. As an action item for two, you can decide to do one of these old activities you used to do or a new one you've been wanting to try and invite the spouse along. If they demur, you go anyway. Phrased as an inevitable event, "I'm hitting a pottery class at the Mud Hut at 8 on Thursday, wanna come?" then you go unless you have a triple digit temperature. Be ready and willing to go alone or you'd better pick something else. The household chore line item has me thinking of advice I gave a friend. His wife does most of the housework and complains about not chipping in. He does and it goes unacknowledged, but I pointed out that if he and the Mrs. split, he'll be doing all of it. It can be an obstacle to making necessary decisions if the cringy "luxury" of being married to a servant holds you back because looking after your basic needs seems too huge to manage and that the lonely existence is a high price, but one that can be tolerated a few months more while you think about, read about, or ignore the dysfunction. "Acting single" will coincidentally include contributing more around the house. Don't expect a reaction. This is your work you may end up doing anyway. No one will be around then to thank you or make you a sammich. Expect the exact same now. You may end up doing household chores below your spouse's standards. This is more co-dependency crap. These aren't your spouse's chores. They are collectively yours and if that collective action is not tenable, it is just as appropriate for you to consider all the household chores your personal burden to be executed to your slipshod standards and the spouse can rectify the condition if he/she/ze pleases. That's not on you. Do it the way you would do if you lived alone. It's your work, do it your way. This may mean doing only your own laundry if the spouse doesn't wish to avail themselves of your free labor. This may mean cooking meals for two, then half of it goes in the frig because it isn't low-carb/vegan/organic. (makes for an easy second meal for you later) This needs to be in the spirit of independence. Not passive aggressive theater for your partner. You do you, for you. The sick, twisted consequence of exerting independence is not uncommonly a sense of intrigue or panic that you're pulling away from the marriage and the refuser may seek to get closer. Be open to such, but aware of the hazards of slipping back into the complacency of "we". In terms of "exercises together", Jon, perhaps building a social life can be with your wife as well. Meetup.com may provide possible activities you'd both be willing to do. (It may be the two of you doing something she likes and you doing the stuff you like alone, if she's not the generous type to indulge you in something she doesn't actually prefer. Witness every man browsing an antique store, ever. Maybe throw a party? See a movie together in an actual theater? Assume this will get you used to being a platonic couple and find the appeal to it as you plan for accepting your celibacy, opening up, or finding an exit. All three will likely need a version of "The Talk", so start composing.
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optima
Junior Member
Posts: 35
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Post by optima on Jan 12, 2022 20:57:16 GMT -5
This may be controversial, but my personal experience in the two years preceding our divorce was that stepping up from a quarter to half the housework caused her to resent me more, respect me less and led to a profound loss of attraction. Without a doubt, our marriage and sex life was better when I listened less to what she said and prioritized work and exercise. This is just one anecdote and is based on personal experience in my long-term marriage, but doing more housework and chores definitely hurt more than it helped. Since the divorce, I’ve read up on the “nice guy syndrome “ and think it was applicable here: I expressed vulnerability (my need for physical intimacy) and asked what would help her be more open to it and did everything that she asked. My desire, unreciprocated by her, and willingness to meet her stated needs in spite of her refusal to meet mine led to a loss of attraction and desire. In fact, she called my efforts at housework and chores to turn the tide of our marriage “pathetic”.
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jon
New Member
Posts: 4
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by jon on Feb 13, 2022 16:49:48 GMT -5
Forgive the belated follow up, as I was away for a while & then got caught up in life. I appreciate the responses & discussion.
For Baza's question... >I guess the harsh question here Brother jon is whether your deal is a cold, or full blown pneumonia. I guess I'd say it's more like a cold, if colds were to go on endlessly. I mean, there was a low-point (not infidelity but more around disconnection) but we've put in work and our relationship has definitely improved notably--minus the one aspect that brings me here. If you go with Esther Perel's perspective (which I don't know how her work is generally seen here) she argues that you can view lack of sex being the result of issues in the relationship, but then you can tweak the relationship to endless perfection and still not end up with sex. Kind of makes sense to me. Some people I've know have had bad relationships and still had sex (though I suppose the examples I know of weren't married couples of 10+ yrs).
Thanks to Apocrypha for the book suggestions. I suppose it's possible that the book I'm looking for hasn't been written yet. I ask just because I can't imagine that more talking is somehow going to fix something that is barely verbal at most. That said, I'll check out Schnarch & Gottman (certainly heard of him but haven't read more than an article or two). And, yes, I'll be weary of (or already have been) of the "scented candles" / "do more around the house" approaches. We already have our division of labor, and while she would prefer I do more of what she does, it's not a very contentious issue in our relationship and she tends to be what I call an "oursourcer". That is, if she can unload work to someone else, she will. So, I don't think me doing more of her chores would achieve anything constructive other than perhaps a once in a while effort when she's busy or stressed.
In general the W has been willing to follow my therapy & other suggestions--meaning she's not one of those cases of refusing to address this or other relationship issues (although I'll put an emphasis on the "follow me"); but I think perhaps there is some deeper digging to be done on the "want" question. I don't feel like that question has been clearly enough answered to my satisfaction.
As far, mirrororchid, as far as your suggestion of building a social life together and exploring something like Meetup.com, interestingly, I have already done that. In fact, I'm the organizer of Meetup group. So, much of our social circle has been built up around that group in recent years. I mean, I think you're point there is insightful--at least for us. She is someone who wants to feel like we're actively doing social activities together.
I wonder--has there much discussion here about the role of religion? Neither of us are very religious at this point in life, but her upbringing was in a Catholic culture, attending all girls schools run by nuns, living in fear of being "one of those girls" who got pregnant in high school, and, as a result, delaying having her first sexual experience for quite a number of years...
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Post by ironhamster on Feb 13, 2022 23:44:33 GMT -5
Welcome back, jon. Yes. "Catholic guilt" and similar brainwashing can definitely be a factor. I don't think it's natural to accept that sex should be saved for marriage and all desire suppressed, then, suddenly after the long awaited ceremony sexual desire is magically there. In my case, we pretty much did everything except PIV sex before marriage, then, it took a year to consumate the marriage. So young, so naive. I can't help but wonder if, just like men can suffer from Madonna Whore syndrome, where once the first baby is born the husband sees his wife no longer as the desirable Virgin but as undesirable, if some Catholic women see their husbands as being undesirable because they fall short of being Jesus incarnate. I suspect that was part of my wife's issue, but, I will never know for sure.
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Post by baza on Feb 14, 2022 1:04:01 GMT -5
Re - "Religion" Brother jon . Probably Brother csl 's posts would be worth your while perusing as he comes at the issue from a pretty straight forward way with his suggestions - including religious, if that seems relevant to a posting. Might even be worth you shooting him a PM. As regards the group generally my observations over quite some time here is that probably about half the membership are religious to some degree, and about half are not particularly inclined that way. Another observation is that getting in to an ILIASM deal is completely egalitarian. It doesn't seem to matter a real lot whether you are religious or not. You can still end up in an ILIASM situation. Same applies to race, age, financial status, or whatever demographic you care to name.
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Post by h on Feb 16, 2022 12:50:08 GMT -5
If your spouse is actually interested in working on things then I highly recommend the "For Men Only" and "For Women Only" book set by Shaunti Feldhahn. Also, "The Sex-Starved Marriage" by Michele Weiner-Davis.
If your spouse isn't interested in working on things or is only going through the motions for appearances, no books or any other resources are going to help you fix anything.
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